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Air Force Day

Windjammer

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Today, 7th September is celebrated as air force day in Pakistan,
On 6 September, both countries openly went to war following a series of minor skirmishes that preceded the 6th, when Pakistan was attacked by India from the Lahore-Burki sector during the dead of night (at 5 am).

Pakistan Air Force gained a lot of credibility and reliability among Pakistan military and international war writers for successful defence of lahore and other important areas of Pakistan and heavy retaliation to India on the next day. The alertness of the airforce was also related to the fact that some pilots were scrambled 6 times in less than an hour on indication of Indian air raids.
Almost 50 years later, some sane heads in India decided to indulge into some introspection, following are some extracts from an article by Shekhar Gupta, published in Indian Express under the heading,

National Interest: Fighting shy.
The standout news story of this week was this newspaper’s defence correspondent Manu Pubby’s on the note of regret that a former Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighter pilot sent out to the daughter of a distinguished Indian pilot whose defenceless civilian transport aircraft he shot down on the last day of the 22-day war of 1965. The Pakistani pilot’s note was unusual, as such sentiments are not usually expressed in this perennially hostile relationship, even if the hint of regret, if any, was entirely qualified. In brief, on the last day of that pointless war of attrition, or rather a war of competitive military incompetence, a Beechcraft owned by the Gujarat government was shot down by a Pakistani Sabre jet in Gujarat, inside Indian territory. Its eight unfortunate occupants, besides the crew and a Gujarat Samachar reporter, included the then Gujarat chief minister Balwantrai Mehta and his wife. Mehta, a Congress stalwart, thus became the first, and only, politician ever to be killed in wartime action in the subcontinent.

The note of the Pakistani pilot, Qais Hussain, has given us the chance of revisiting a question that has never been debated freely in India. That question is, just how well, or poorly, did the Indian Air Force (IAF) do in the war of 1965? For nearly half a century now, India has nurtured a mythology consciously constructed during and in the aftermath of that war: the mythology of the Indian superiority in air, of the little Gnat’s invincibility, and so on. A part of that myth-making was also, and one has to be very careful saying that given how much respect three generations of Indians, including this writer, have held him in, the lionising, subsequently, of the then air chief, Air Marshal Arjan Singh. (A wonderful pilot and leader, he remains the only IAF officer to be elevated to the rank of Marshal of the Air Force).

This latest revelation now attacks that carefully cultivated mythology. Military history is serious business. It is also brutal. Because not only is the early history mostly written by the winner (which none was in 1965, overall), it also rarely resembles the purple prose of the gallantry citations. The simple question is, what kind of control over our own airspace did we have that a PAF Sabre was loitering inside and shot down a civilian VIP aircraft?

Of course, no air force can guarantee that not even a single enemy aircraft would be able to enter its airspace unchallenged. But, nearly a half-century after that inconclusive war there is no harm taking a more robust and questioning view of what exactly happened then, in the air, and of how we were able to create such a fictional history afterwards. It is one thing for the Pakistanis to build such mythologies, and then perpetuate these through chapters in school textbooks. But in India, we should have exhibited better sense of inquiry, and self-questioning. If we fought that war in the air as well as we believe, how come we lost 75 aircraft to Pakistan’s 28? As many as 37 of our losses were on the ground, compared with eight of the PAF (claimed to have been) destroyed by us. This only underlines that the PAF did a much better job of attacking rival airbases than us.

On the very first day of that war, the IAF opened the campaign losing all four of the Vampires (then possibly the slowest moving jet fighter in the world) sent out to help our beleaguered army units in Chhamb. Why these totally vulnerable (and by then not combat-worthy) aircraft were sent out when better options were available, is not a question that has often been asked by Indian military historians.

This was followed by three other disasters that set the IAF back rudely in that war. Three days into the war, on September 6, eight PAF Sabres attacked the Pathankot airbase, bristling with combat activity. The base commanders somehow ignored even warnings from Amritsar radar (conveyed over the phone) and neither scrambled fighters, nor dispersed aircraft on the ground. The Sabres fired unchallenged, and India lost 10 aircraft on the ground, including two of our most vaunted MiG-21s — out of the nine that had so far arrived as our first half-strength supersonic squadron. This loss of 10 was then followed by another 10 in WW II-style, brave, but chaotic, raids over Sargodha. The Pakistanis, of course, made highly exaggerated claims and celebrate that day, September 6, as Defence of Pakistan Day and hold triumphal military parades. But the fact is that on this day the IAF suffered severe losses, followed by more self-inflicted (through command indecision) losses on the ground as the PAF attacked our eastern airfields. It is now a well-documented fact by non-official historians that the IAF had planned pulverising raids on Pakistani air assets in the east and had even launched fully loaded aircraft, which were called back when they had the targets in their bomb-sites and Delhi got nervous about irritating the Chinese. The PAF Sabres came more or less on the tail of the returning IAF formations, hitting almost all the major IAF bases in the east, particularly West Bengal. Surely, the IAF did much in subsequent days to restore the balance. Its gallant defence of Halwara and Adampur in Punjab resulted in the PAF stopping daylight raids on its air bases, for example. Some of its Gnat and Hunter squadrons demonstrated they had the measure of the Pakistanis, in tactics as well as skill. There was no dearth of courage, ever. One story you can reconstruct with pride is of an audacious plan to lure out the Sabres into combat after the very first loss of the four Vampires. Because it was presumed that the PAF was greedy over the prospect of shooting slow-moving Vampires, a formation of slow and large Mysteres was led by Wing Commander W.M. Goodman to lure the Sabres, with Squadron Leader Johnny Greene’s formation of six Gnats lurking behind them. Sure enough, the Sabres took the “bait” and gave the IAF its first two successes of that war even as the Mysteres exited safely. But, overall, the PAF had greater sway over the skies in daytime. And at night, they pretty much had a free run as the IAF fighters were not night-capable.

The IAF and the defence establishment have avoided facing that truth. This, in spite of the fact that 1971 marked the IAF’s finest hour. It attacked relentlessly, never suffered a setback, and never yielded the PAF any space. In India, we only have to be grateful to two young writer-researchers, P.V.S. Jagan Mohan and Samir Chopra (The India-Pakistan Air War of 1965, Manohar, 2006, Rs 895) who have put together a remarkably accurate and honest history of the 1965 war we have tried hard to forget. But which this part confession by a Pakistani pilot has now brought back to us.

Postscript: Wing Commander M.S.D. (Mally) Wollen was commanding the still forming MiG-21 squadron in that war. He had the mortification of seeing his MiG blown up on the ground at Pathankot, even as he jumped into a water tank, in full flying livery, to duck the strafing Sabres. Earlier he had fired both his missiles at a Pakistani Sabre from an impossible angle and rued the fact that the first MiGs did not have any cannons on them..

National Interest: Fighting shy - Indian Express
 
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IAF had planned pulverising raids on Pakistani air assets in the east and had even launched fully loaded aircraft, which were called back when they had the targets in their bomb-sites and Delhi got nervous about irritating the Chinese. The PAF Sabres came more or less on the tail of the returning IAF formations, hitting almost all the major IAF bases in the east, particularly West Bengal.

So Indians planned to attack East Pakistan too in 1965 war ....but "nervous bhartis" backed down? They were ball-less even then? No surprise :lol:

Happy Air Force day! :pakistan:

PAF is undoubtedly most professional arm of all sub-continental forces (IA,PA,PN,IAF,IN etc) ....

List of PAF air-to-air victories by a very credible source : (Poor IAF is not even near! :smokin: )

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_324.shtml

PAF should take charge as most 'prominent' arm in Pakistan armed forces. Army has held it for too long now...
 
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Shekhar Gupta who wrote that crap is the biggest a$$hole this side of the Suez! He is a known basher of the Indian defence forces because he tried three times to join but was rejected due to psychological problems failing miserably in the SSBs.

He's the same clown who 'warned' the government of an 'impending' coup by the Indian Army a few months ago!!

His credibility is zilch. According to him India lost more than half its air force to the PAF in 1965!! :cheesy: Really? :woot:
 
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Shekhar Gupta who wrote that crap is the biggest a$$hole this side of the Suez! He is a known basher of the Indian defence forces because he tried three times to join but was rejected due to psychological problems failing miserably in the SSBs.

He's the same clown who 'warned' the government of an 'impending' coup by the Indian Army a few months ago!!

His credibility is zilch. According to him India lost more than half its air force to the PAF in 1965!! :cheesy: Really? :woot:

So in hind sight, you are also questioning the credibility of the Indian Express, :what: well as the saying goes, any port in a storm.:agree:...I guess the author only knows too well the psyche of his country fellows, hence he posed the comment. :fie:
Of course, no air force can guarantee that not even a single enemy aircraft would be able to enter its airspace unchallenged. But, nearly a half-century after that inconclusive war there is no harm taking a more robust and questioning view of what exactly happened then, in the air, and of how we were able to create such a fictional history afterwards. It is one thing for the Pakistanis to build such mythologies, and then perpetuate these through chapters in school textbooks. But in India, we should have exhibited better sense of inquiry, and self-questioning. If we fought that war in the air as well as we believe, how come we lost 75 aircraft to Pakistan’s 28? As many as 37 of our losses were on the ground, compared with eight of the PAF (claimed to have been) destroyed by us. This only underlines that the PAF did a much better job of attacking rival airbases than us
 
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India attacked ???
After 1962, IAF was not in any position to attack your posts. This blaming game of who attacked will go on and on. :disagree: Better celebrate it as a day not as a victory day coz the whole world knows the final result of that war..
 
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India attacked ???
After 1962, IAF was not in any position to attack your posts. This blaming game of who attacked will go on and on. :disagree: Better celebrate it as a day not as a victory day coz the whole world knows the final result of that war..




Yes , when seven TIMES larger nation was forced to sign a stalemate with seven times smaller nation :azn:

PAF also battered IAF in 71 war....what happened then? :lol:

BTW , during Chinese conflict , IAF wasn't even used FFS! So how come IAF was not in any position to face PAF due to 62' war? Excuses excuses ....:lol:

The reality is that PAF got IAF with its pants down...and then just slaughtered your poor force.
 
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India attacked ???
After 1962, IAF was not in any position to attack your posts. This blaming game of who attacked will go on and on. :disagree: Better celebrate it as a day not as a victory day coz the whole world knows the final result of that war..

Go and learn some history first, it was not IAF but the Indian army which attacked in Lahore sector.

And the world knows you ended up going to Simla for an agreement.
 
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Ohh little, yes we lost more aircrafts. But the ground did well against PA, infact had got all terrotories captured by PA.
As far as iaf was concerned, it was poorly equipped with soviet era fighters and hunters.

And plz don't bring 71 war, as all the three banches of Indian armed did well. PA,PAF were competetive but PN was like little deer running for its life in front of IN. You lost it very badly in 71, whole eastern part was lost,still you talk about achievements of 71 !!!
@topic: Better celebrate this day and don't write some India bashing threads..plz
 
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Go and learn some history first, it was not IAF but the Indian army which attacked in Lahore sector.

And the world knows you ended up going to Simla for an agreement.



The agreement which their media calls "...giving a walkover to Pakistan." :woot:
 
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Sorry I m unable to quote you currently..
@windjammer:

What about the "operation gilbraltar" ?? Which was started by Pakistani army in august, by infiltrating in Indian territories.

After this act there was increase in border skirmish and the war started on around 1-2 sept, and IA attacked on border and even got close to lahore. But stopped there, as there was international pressure from US..
 
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Sorry I m unable to quote you currently..
@windjammer:

What about the "operation gilbraltar" ?? Which was started by Pakistani army in august, by infiltrating in Indian territories.

After this act there was increase in border skirmish and the war started on around 1-2 sept, and IA attacked on border and even got close to lahore. But stopped there, as there was international pressure from US..


Op Gibraltar was Absurd at its start..That 6000-8000 men would simply cross into Kashmir unnoticed??

Based on the then resolved incident at hazratbal Mosque..which meant by the time of the infiltration kashmiri Muslims were actually content with the Indian Governments actions.
Still these brave men blew up bridges and ammo depots, attacked convoys and did inflict heavy casualties on Indian forces.. but once their supplies ran out.. they were abandoned to fend for themselves.. and hunted down and killed...only a few survived at poonch thanks to local help(which also died out as the Indian forces used a scorched earth strategy).
It is commendable that the PAF tried to help as many of these men exit by flying dangerous resupply missions into Kashmir where the C-130's literally scraped mountaintops to deliver supplies to these otherwise hapless men.

On the 31st of August Gen Akhtar Malik was to deliver his "grand slam"(in support of Op "Gibraltar") at the abandoned Indian Bunkers at akhnur. Helped on by the lack of co-operation from the Indian XV Corps GOC(who were Forewarned of the Pakistani troops by UN observers) to the COAS's orders(the Indian Army leadership was fairly inept as Pakistanis during that stage.. if not for their COAS Gen Choudhry). The launch of Operation "faulad" and "bakhshi" allowed the capture of strategic high ground around Kargil and Kishanganga.. which blocked the Infiltrators paths..who in their attempts to escape were all either massacred or caught(and shown on TV then as well).

Moreover there was also a delay in launching Op "Grand Slam" , yet when it was launched...Gen Akhtar was able to Blitzkrieg over Deva, Chhamb and was at Akhnur's doorstep when he was replaced at the heat of battle by Ayub Khan with a Dithering yahya who delayed and then abandoned the attack, ending any of Pakistan's last hopes of taking Kashmir by force.

the Indian response to this attack Op "Ablaze" had been thought up in Advance(Hence ending the impression that India was only defending herself). Infact the ISI had delivered a report on it to the GHQ on the 30th of Aug about the attack but as Ive stated before.. the bogeyman ISI is simply a tool.. when there are inept ******** using it like they were then(Gen Musa).. the result is catastrophic..as it was when the nation was caught off guard(when it should not have been).

The IA crossed the international border and would have taken both Lahore and sialkot.. if not for the blood of those lions who sacrificed themselves to protect their nation because the lambs that led them had failed to use their heads or their courage.
 
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I Think with regards to the topic.. attention needs to be payed to the Bomber crews of the PAF. Their actions were decisive at many points during those days yet they went unsung
 
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Op Gibraltar was Absurd at its start..That 6000-8000 men would simply cross into Kashmir unnoticed??

Based on the then resolved incident at hazratbal Mosque..which meant by the time of the infiltration kashmiri Muslims were actually content with the Indian Governments actions.
Still these brave men blew up bridges and ammo depots, attacked convoys and did inflict heavy casualties on Indian forces.. but once their supplies ran out.. they were abandoned to fend for themselves.. and hunted down and killed...only a few survived at poonch thanks to local help(which also died out as the Indian forces used a scorched earth strategy).
It is commendable that the PAF tried to help as many of these men exit by flying dangerous resupply missions into Kashmir where the C-130's literally scraped mountaintops to deliver supplies to these otherwise hapless men.

On the 31st of August Gen Akhtar Malik was to deliver his "grand slam"(in support of Op "Gibraltar") at the abandoned Indian Bunkers at akhnur. Helped on by the lack of co-operation from the Indian XV Corps GOC(who were Forewarned of the Pakistani troops by UN observers) to the COAS's orders(the Indian Army leadership was fairly inept as Pakistanis during that stage.. if not for their COAS Gen Choudhry). The launch of Operation "faulad" and "bakhshi" allowed the capture of strategic high ground around Kargil and Kishanganga.. which blocked the Infiltrators paths..who in their attempts to escape were all either massacred or caught(and shown on TV then as well).

Moreover there was also a delay in launching Op "Grand Slam" , yet when it was launched...Gen Akhtar was able to Blitzkrieg over Deva, Chhamb and was at Akhnur's doorstep when he was replaced at the heat of battle by Ayub Khan with a Dithering yahya who delayed and then abandoned the attack, ending any of Pakistan's last hopes of taking Kashmir by force.

the Indian response to this attack Op "Ablaze" had been thought up in Advance(Hence ending the impression that India was only defending herself). Infact the ISI had delivered a report on it to the GHQ on the 30th of Aug about the attack but as Ive stated before.. the bogeyman ISI is simply a tool.. when there are inept ******** using it like they were then(Gen Musa).. the result is catastrophic..as it was when the nation was caught off guard(when it should not have been).

The IA crossed the international border and would have taken both Lahore and sialkot.. if not for the blood of those lions who sacrificed themselves to protect their nation because the lambs that led them had failed to use their heads or their courage.

What ???:woot:
Who told you all this !!! PAF landed 50 paratroopers to help those helpless, with guns and parachutes..!!
really someone has played a very cruel trick with you.
@topic: Operation gilbraltor was a covert operation in order to attack Indian posts, airbases and if possible also the civilian vehicles (it was claimed that pakistani paratrooper attacked the civilians and their vehicles), and you don't call it as attack and pointing towards IA of attacking Pakistan first.

Yes, Indian army was defending its territory by capturing pakistani area so that it can go for a deal to get the kem karan area back. And lahore was the best target for Indian army as it was close and it was important to pakistan.
 
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