What's new

AIP vs nuclear submarines

Manticore

RETIRED MOD
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
10,115
Reaction score
114
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
AIP vs nuclear submarines
picard578 / March 3, 2013
STRATEGIC COMPARISION
AIP vs nuclear submarines | Defense Issues


COST



Cost of typical AIP sub is 100 million USD to 250 million USD, compared to 1,6 – 3 billion USD for typical nuclear submarine; though estimates for possible US diesel subs were as high as 500 million to 1 billion USD.



Here is list of submarine costs:



AIP submarines:

T-96 class (Sweden): 100 million USD

212-type (Germany): 250 million USD

Moray class (Netherlands): 250 million USD

Dolphin class (Germany): 500 – 870 million USD

Scorpene class (France): 450 million USD



Nuclear submarines:

Los Angeles class: 1 billion USD

Seawolf class: 2,8 billion USD

Virginia class: 1,8 – 2,5 billion USD

Astute class: 1,17 – 1,82 billion USD



Further, while nuclear submarines are not really harmful for its crew, disposal of spent nuclear fuel is very costly. Operating costs are also lower for AIP subs – nuclear submarines can cost 21 million USD per year to operate, along with 200 million USD refuelling and modernizing at half-life of 15 years, which adds up to 830 million USD over nuclear sub’s lifetime. At the end of service life, it can be refuelled and overhauled for 410 million USD, giving it another 12 years of life, and adding 662 million USD to total lifetime operating cost.



ENDURANCE



AIP subs generally provide submerged (AIP) endurance of 14-30 days, and total endurance of 45 to 90 days, as AIP systems cannot yet replace oxygen-dependant diesel engine. Nuclear subs, on the other hand, typically have endurance – submerged or not – of 90-100 days, limited by the food storage for the crew. Gotland class has submerged endurance of 14 days at 5 knots, while Type 212 submarine has submerged endurance of over 30 days at 4 knots, and can cruise for cca 3 000 miles.





TACTICAL COMPARISION



Main advantage of modern submarine is stealth. While nuclear submarines have measures to reduce sound and magnetic signatures, nature of nuclear propulsion (steam turbine) makes them far more noisy than AIP submarine of same size. They also tend to be larger on a whole, making them even more detectable through either acoustic, infrared or magnetic sensors. Further weakness of nuclear submarine is that it has to cool down nuclear reactor, with hot water being dumped into ocean, leaving long trail behind the submarine; as such, it is even more detectable by IR sensors than just size difference suggests.



While Los Angeles class can dive to 450 meters regularly, German Type 214 (improved Type 212) can dive to 426 meters.



Nuclear submarines are typically faster than AIP subs, making them more suitable for open ocean. However, typical AIP sub is smaller and more maneuverable than typical nuclear submarine. This, combined with smaller acoustic signature, makes them far better suited for littoral waters, such as in North Sea, Mediterranean Sea or Western Pacific, where in some cases nuclear submarine is longer than the water is deep. As such, in islanded areas or choke points nuclear submarine can fall victim to smaller AIP subs, unable to detect and outmaneuver them. Nuclear submarines have cruise speeds of 20 – 25 knots, compared to 10 – 15 knots for AIP subs. Combining slower cruise speed with bursts of high speed can allow AIP subs to cover relatively large area, however, and effectivelly deny access to enemy nuclear submarines. HDM and MESMA systems used in AIP subs (submarines using them typically cost 250 million USD) are also far quieter than nuclear plant.



In shallow water, AIP sub is just as dangerous to surface ships as it is to nuclear subs. As Capt. Tom Abernethy, who commands the sub-hunting Destroyer Squadron 22 based in Norfolk , Va. ,said: “Shallow water, you get a lot of noise reverberation and additional traffic, and you’re fighting in somebody else’s back yard which they know pretty well …. [In that environment, even a diesel sub] is absolutely a real threat, a formidable threat …. ”. Furthermore, unlike nuclear submarine, diesel submarine can hide on the floor, completely silent and immobile, until something passes nearby. And even with usage of active sonar, it is not easy to discern submarine from its surroundings.



Walter hydrogen peroxide turbine allows for 26 knots of submerged speed, however, though it is likely a “sprint” speed (which is in 30 – 35 kt range for nuclear subs) and not cruise speed. Perhydron fuel used in WW2 and later Walter submarines is combustive, and fuel lines must not have any right angle turns, as it can pile up and spontaneously combust in such angles – and even without that, Russian Walter submarines were called “cigarette lighters” due to their tendency to flame up. Further, turbine is very fuel-thirsty, limiting the range.



Out of modern AIP technologies, closed cycle steam turbines offer highest short term power output, but have lowest efficiency and highest fuel consumption. Stirling engine is quiet and simple, but large compared to its power output. PEM fuel cells currently have very low power output, but like all other AIP technologies, there is a lot of room for improvement.



In exercises, AIP and diesel subs have proven their worth. While exercuses are usually scripted (sometimes to an extent of being completely unindicative of actual combat capabilities of different weapons – this is case with USAF exercises involving 5th generation fighters), it was known for submarine commanders to deviate from script, with deviations producing rather interesting results. In 1981 NATO exercise Ocean Venture, an unnamed 1960s vintage Canadian diesel submarine “sank” the carrier USS America without once being itself detected, and a second unidentified vintage sub “sank” the carrier USS Forrestal. In 1989 exercise Northern Star, Dutch diesel submarine Zwaardvis “sank” carrier USS America. In RIMPAC 1996, Chilean diesel submarine Simpson “sank” carrier USS Independence. In 1999 NATO exercise JTFEX/TMDI99 Dutch diesel submarine Walrus “sank” carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt, exercise command ship USS Mount Whitney, one cruiser, several destroyers and frigattes, and Los Angeles class nuclear fast attack submarine USS Boise. In RIMPAC 2000, Australian Collins class diesel submarine “sank” two US fast attack submarines, and almost “sank” carrier USS Abraham Lincoln. In 2001 Operation Tandem Thrust, HMAS Waller sank two US amphibious assault ships in water barely deeper than length of submarine itself, though it was later sank herself, and Chilean diesel sub took out Los Angeler class nuclear fast attack sub USS Montpelier twice during exercise runs. In October 2002, HMAS Sheehan hunted down and “killed” Los Angeles class USS Olympia. In September 2003, several Collins class submarines “sank” two US fast attack subs and a carrier. In 2005, Swedish Gotland-class submarine “sank” USS Ronald Reagan.



At least one similar occurence happened outside exercises: in 2006, Chinese Song-class diesel submarine reached striking distance of carrier USS Kitty Hawk undetected. While US are thinking about emulating diesel submarines with UUVs, most likely outcome will be platform just as, or less, capable than AIP submarine, while costing just as much as nuclear submarine, and being far more unreliable than either. As Robert Gates said, US spend more and more money for fewer and fewer platforms. I might add: and ones that are more vulnerable in many scenarios than what US are currently using.



CONCLUSION



AIP subs, while having disadvantages – mainly regarding speed and range – compared to nuclear submarines, also have many advantages that make than a must-have for any serious naval force. They can also be a nightmare for ASW and any other surface or submerged units when employed properly.
 
.
At least one similar occurence happened outside exercises: in 2006, Chinese Song-class diesel submarine reached striking distance of carrier USS Kitty Hawk undetected.
We don't know for sure it was not detected, we only know it wasn't engaged (which is logical/inevitable, considering it is peacetime): aside from shooting at it, there is not a lot else one can do to stop a submerged sub (the only option would be to run into it with one of your own i.e. risking a $2b SSN and crew, which is pretty irresponsible).
 
.
well i dont think so you can find any sub below 800 million dollars these days.
india is giving a tender of 6 billion dollars for 6 subs.
reason is developmental costs not the actual cost of construction.
 
.
We don't know for sure it was not detected, we only know it wasn't engaged (which is logical/inevitable, considering it is peacetime): aside from shooting at it, there is not a lot else one can do to stop a submerged sub (the only option would be to run into it with one of your own i.e. risking a $2b SSN and crew, which is pretty irresponsible).

So much of your nonsnse. The US carrier could have aggressively sent out seahawk with sonar to ping and force out the sub if it shadowing her. But they did nothing conclude they know nothing before hand.

Oh , i forget you are a pro india and western analyst. To you PLAN , will have nothing to offer. Only the hinddu and west is god. So much of your biased reply. :lol:
 
.
So much of your nonsnse. The US carrier could have aggressively sent out seahawk with sonar to ping and force out the sub if it shadowing her. But they did nothing conclude they know nothing before hand.
That is still supposition, indirect at best. And pinging a sub really won't stop it from moving into an area if it is determined to get there to surface. (Besides, if you could stop or disable a sub by pinging it, why bother loading down your flying assets with DCs and ASW torpedoes....?)

You could just as likely conclude that USN opted not to act, as aggressive use of a Seahawk to no avail would have made for an even bigger PR victory for China, while at the same time such escalation could lead to more dangerous accidents/incidents.

Ships, submarines, (patrol) aircraft, helicopters and SOSUS-like underwater equipment, as well as satellites have successfully detected submerged submarines. Fact is: we don't know whether any or none of these registered the sub's presence.

Whatever this may or may not reveal about the limitations of U.S. ASW capabilities and the competence of Chinese submariners --the most useful information is almost certainly classified-- it does demonstrate that China's submarines are ranging farther afield and operating more aggressively than in the past.

Oh , i forget you are a pro india and western analyst. To you PLAN , will have nothing to offer. Only the hinddu and west is god. So much of your biased reply. :lol:

This statement as well as the fact that you resort to this kind of statement rather than substantieve discussion says more about you then about me and it is not worthy of any further comment on my part.

:smart:
 
Last edited:
.
Pakistan does not currently have a need for large number of Nuclear Submarines.

It would help us to own a couple to complete our Nuclear Triad but we could also use larger Diesel/AIP submarines with nearly 5000 tons displacement for that purpose.

Nuclear Submarines are faster and indispensable to have with Carrier Groups but since we are neither a Blue Water Navy nor have AC , Diesel / AIP serve our purpose of the Sea denial capability.

The Diesel/AIP Submarines are also quieter and with the ability to remain submerged up to 30-45 days, they serve our purpose well.
 
.
So much of your nonsnse. The US carrier could have aggressively sent out seahawk with sonar to ping and force out the sub if it shadowing her. But they did nothing conclude they know nothing before hand.
Debunked a long time ago. In any kind of warfare, inaction does not equate to ignorance.

But here is my take on it...

Chinese Submarines | Page 4

See if you can grasp the technicalities involved.
 
.
We don't know for sure it was not detected, we only know it wasn't engaged (which is logical/inevitable, considering it is peacetime): aside from shooting at it, there is not a lot else one can do to stop a submerged sub (the only option would be to run into it with one of your own i.e. risking a $2b SSN and crew, which is pretty irresponsible).
The area of exercise s are published in advance. What if the submarine sailed to that area before the ships of the exercise moved into that area and remained submerged quietly and surfaced during the progress of the exercise?
 
.
The area of exercise s are published in advance. What if the submarine sailed to that area before the ships of the exercise moved into that area and remained submerged quietly and surfaced during the progress of the exercise?
Makes no difference: we still don't know if USN did or did not spot the boat + short of shooting, how could they've stopped her from surfacing?

This scenario, if true, would indicate a PR strunt rather than a structural capability to 'catch' a carrier. See the thread Gambit referred to.
 
.
Ohio Class Subs cause me to sleep better at night
 
.
AIP vs nuclear submarines
picard578 / March 3, 2013
STRATEGIC COMPARISION
AIP vs nuclear submarines | Defense Issues


COST



Cost of typical AIP sub is 100 million USD to 250 million USD, compared to 1,6 – 3 billion USD for typical nuclear submarine; though estimates for possible US diesel subs were as high as 500 million to 1 billion USD.



Here is list of submarine costs:



AIP submarines:

T-96 class (Sweden): 100 million USD

212-type (Germany): 250 million USD

Moray class (Netherlands): 250 million USD

Dolphin class (Germany): 500 – 870 million USD

Scorpene class (France): 450 million USD



Nuclear submarines:

Los Angeles class: 1 billion USD

Seawolf class: 2,8 billion USD

Virginia class: 1,8 – 2,5 billion USD

Astute class: 1,17 – 1,82 billion USD



Further, while nuclear submarines are not really harmful for its crew, disposal of spent nuclear fuel is very costly. Operating costs are also lower for AIP subs – nuclear submarines can cost 21 million USD per year to operate, along with 200 million USD refuelling and modernizing at half-life of 15 years, which adds up to 830 million USD over nuclear sub’s lifetime. At the end of service life, it can be refuelled and overhauled for 410 million USD, giving it another 12 years of life, and adding 662 million USD to total lifetime operating cost.



ENDURANCE



AIP subs generally provide submerged (AIP) endurance of 14-30 days, and total endurance of 45 to 90 days, as AIP systems cannot yet replace oxygen-dependant diesel engine. Nuclear subs, on the other hand, typically have endurance – submerged or not – of 90-100 days, limited by the food storage for the crew. Gotland class has submerged endurance of 14 days at 5 knots, while Type 212 submarine has submerged endurance of over 30 days at 4 knots, and can cruise for cca 3 000 miles.





TACTICAL COMPARISION



Main advantage of modern submarine is stealth. While nuclear submarines have measures to reduce sound and magnetic signatures, nature of nuclear propulsion (steam turbine) makes them far more noisy than AIP submarine of same size. They also tend to be larger on a whole, making them even more detectable through either acoustic, infrared or magnetic sensors. Further weakness of nuclear submarine is that it has to cool down nuclear reactor, with hot water being dumped into ocean, leaving long trail behind the submarine; as such, it is even more detectable by IR sensors than just size difference suggests.



While Los Angeles class can dive to 450 meters regularly, German Type 214 (improved Type 212) can dive to 426 meters.



Nuclear submarines are typically faster than AIP subs, making them more suitable for open ocean. However, typical AIP sub is smaller and more maneuverable than typical nuclear submarine. This, combined with smaller acoustic signature, makes them far better suited for littoral waters, such as in North Sea, Mediterranean Sea or Western Pacific, where in some cases nuclear submarine is longer than the water is deep. As such, in islanded areas or choke points nuclear submarine can fall victim to smaller AIP subs, unable to detect and outmaneuver them. Nuclear submarines have cruise speeds of 20 – 25 knots, compared to 10 – 15 knots for AIP subs. Combining slower cruise speed with bursts of high speed can allow AIP subs to cover relatively large area, however, and effectively deny access to enemy nuclear submarines. HDM and MESMA systems used in AIP subs (submarines using them typically cost 250 million USD) are also far quieter than nuclear plant.



In shallow water, AIP sub is just as dangerous to surface ships as it is to nuclear subs. As Capt. Tom Abernethy, who commands the sub-hunting Destroyer Squadron 22 based in Norfolk , Va. ,said: “Shallow water, you get a lot of noise reverberation and additional traffic, and you’re fighting in somebody else’s back yard which they know pretty well …. [In that environment, even a diesel sub] is absolutely a real threat, a formidable threat …. ”. Furthermore, unlike nuclear submarine, diesel submarine can hide on the floor, completely silent and immobile, until something passes nearby. And even with usage of active sonar, it is not easy to discern submarine from its surroundings.



Walter hydrogen peroxide turbine allows for 26 knots of submerged speed, however, though it is likely a “sprint” speed (which is in 30 – 35 kt range for nuclear subs) and not cruise speed. Perhydron fuel used in WW2 and later Walter submarines is combustive, and fuel lines must not have any right angle turns, as it can pile up and spontaneously combust in such angles – and even without that, Russian Walter submarines were called “cigarette lighters” due to their tendency to flame up. Further, turbine is very fuel-thirsty, limiting the range.



Out of modern AIP technologies, closed cycle steam turbines offer highest short term power output, but have lowest efficiency and highest fuel consumption. Stirling engine is quiet and simple, but large compared to its power output. PEM fuel cells currently have very low power output, but like all other AIP technologies, there is a lot of room for improvement.



In exercises, AIP and diesel subs have proven their worth. While exercuses are usually scripted (sometimes to an extent of being completely unindicative of actual combat capabilities of different weapons – this is case with USAF exercises involving 5th generation fighters), it was known for submarine commanders to deviate from script, with deviations producing rather interesting results. In 1981 NATO exercise Ocean Venture, an unnamed 1960s vintage Canadian diesel submarine “sank” the carrier USS America without once being itself detected, and a second unidentified vintage sub “sank” the carrier USS Forrestal. In 1989 exercise Northern Star, Dutch diesel submarine Zwaardvis “sank” carrier USS America. In RIMPAC 1996, Chilean diesel submarine Simpson “sank” carrier USS Independence. In 1999 NATO exercise JTFEX/TMDI99 Dutch diesel submarine Walrus “sank” carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt, exercise command ship USS Mount Whitney, one cruiser, several destroyers and frigattes, and Los Angeles class nuclear fast attack submarine USS Boise. In RIMPAC 2000, Australian Collins class diesel submarine “sank” two US fast attack submarines, and almost “sank” carrier USS Abraham Lincoln. In 2001 Operation Tandem Thrust, HMAS Waller sank two US amphibious assault ships in water barely deeper than length of submarine itself, though it was later sank herself, and Chilean diesel sub took out Los Angeler class nuclear fast attack sub USS Montpelier twice during exercise runs. In October 2002, HMAS Sheehan hunted down and “killed” Los Angeles class USS Olympia. In September 2003, several Collins class submarines “sank” two US fast attack subs and a carrier. In 2005, Swedish Gotland-class submarine “sank” USS Ronald Reagan.



At least one similar occurence happened outside exercises: in 2006, Chinese Song-class diesel submarine reached striking distance of carrier USS Kitty Hawk undetected. While US are thinking about emulating diesel submarines with UUVs, most likely outcome will be platform just as, or less, capable than AIP submarine, while costing just as much as nuclear submarine, and being far more unreliable than either. As Robert Gates said, US spend more and more money for fewer and fewer platforms. I might add: and ones that are more vulnerable in many scenarios than what US are currently using.



CONCLUSION



AIP subs, while having disadvantages – mainly regarding speed and range – compared to nuclear submarines, also have many advantages that make than a must-have for any serious naval force. They can also be a nightmare for ASW and any other surface or submerged units when employed properly.

Nice Info, however we should not forget that an ability of a SSBN to carry Large heavy BMs is unparalleled.

AIP powered subs can fire cruise missiles having 250 to 300 KM range and Scorpion may (and I say may) carry Nirbhay SLCM with 1,000 KM range.

Such SLCMs weigh 1000 to 1500 KG and AIP subs can carry 10 to 12 such missiles at max. @Penguin @Capt.Popeye

On other hands Typhoon class SSBN could carry 20 R-39 missiles having range of 8,300 KM, which could carry up to 10 MIRV warheads and each weighted 84 tons.
 
.
The area of exercise s are published in advance. What if the submarine sailed to that area before the ships of the exercise moved into that area and remained submerged quietly and surfaced during the progress of the exercise?
In any form of warfare, do not equate inaction with ignorance, least of all in submarine warfare where the goal is to have the enemy underestimate you.
 
. .
Nice Info, however we should not forget that an ability of a SSBN to carry Large heavy BMs is unparalleled.

AIP powered subs can fire cruise missiles having 250 to 300 KM range and Scorpion may (and I say may) carry Nirbhay SLCM with 1,000 KM range.

Such SLCMs weigh 1000 to 1500 KG and AIP subs can carry 10 to 12 such missiles at max. @Penguin @Capt.Popeye

On other hands Typhoon class SSBN could carry 20 R-39 missiles having range of 8,300 KM, which could carry up to 10 MIRV warheads and each weighted 84 tons.

So long as it fits the tubes, and the sub is equipped with appropriate fire control, there is no reason why even a non-AIP conventional sub couldn't fire cruise missiles. Also there is no technical reason why such missiles would be limited to 250-300km.

Compare e.g. US Mk 48 torpedo and Tomahawk SLCM

Mk 48 torpedo
Length 19 feet (5.79 meters)
Weight 3,434 lbs (1545.3 kg) (MK-48);
3,695 lbs (1662.75 kg) (MK-48 ADCAP)
Diameter 21 inches (53.34 centimeters)
RangeOfficially "Greater than 5 miles (8 km)"

BGM-109 Tomahawk
Length: 18 feet 3 inches (5.56 meters); with booster: 20 feet 6 inches (6.25 meters)
Weight: 2,650 pounds (1192.5 kg); 3,200 pounds (1440 kg) with booster
Diameter: 20.4 inches (51.81 cm)
Wing Span: 8 feet 9 inches (2.67 meters)
Range:
Land attack, conventional warhead: 600 nautical miles (690 statute miles, 1104 km)


Or Russia's

533 mm (21") UGST wakehomer
Weight4,850 lbs. (2,200 kg)
Overall Length
283 in (7.200 m)

533 mm (21") USET-80 wakehomer
Weight4,410+ lbs. (2,000+ kg)
Overall Length311 in (7.900 m)


533 mm (21") VA-111 "Shkval" (Squall) supercavitating torp
Weight5,952 lbs. (2,700 kg)
Overall Length323 in (8.200 m)

S-10 Granat (SS-N-21 'Sampson';GRAU:3M10), SLCM

Weight 1,700 kg (3,750 lb)
Length 809 cm (26 ft 7 in)
Diameter 51 cm (20.1 in)
Operational range 3,000 km (1,600 nmi
 
Last edited:
.
Storm Shadow/SCALP EG
Weight1,230 kilograms (2,711.7 lb)
Length5.1 metres (16.7 ft)
Diameter
.48 metres (1.6 ft)
Operational range500 kilometres (311 mi)[

And it long range naval development for the French Barracuda SSNs.

Missile de Croisière Naval (Naval Cruise Missile)
Weight1,400 kg (3,086 lb)
Length6.5 m (21.3 ft)
Diameter500 mm (19.7 in)
Effective firing range>1,000 km (540 nmi)
SCALP Naval/MdCN | Missile ThreatMissile Threat

(Or, as Naval Technology states: "The missile has a range of more than 250km.")
 
Last edited:
.
Back
Top Bottom