Ahmadis in Pakistan

[apophenia]

It certainly has been an issue since 1974 but they are never allowed to present their view. Even the 1974 National Assembly proceedings are kept secret from public.

you are wrong..both factions of the jammat AMC/LAM were given chance to present their POV during the parliamentary session on 1974.

Yes there is a law that Ahmadis’ cannot declare themselves as Muslims. We can discuss if the law is wrong or right. But then again not many people know that they (AMC/LAM) were given their chance to bring forward any argumentation to support their claim during the parliamentary sessions in Pakistan in 1974. Mirza Nasir(Khalifatul Masih III) came across so badly that Justice Yayhya Bakhtiar latter said:

“The entire Assembly proceedings [of 1974] were held in secret, in order to avoid provocation of the masses.”

The transcript of the proceedings at the parliament was never published by GOP considering the sensitivity of the issue. However Molvi Allah Wasaya wrote a book on this, which has details account of what had happened during the proceedings. Everyone should read it before commenting upon their status in constitution. Why didn’t anyone from Ahmadiyya Community challenged Ordinance XX in SC?

 

[Awesome]

Can you provide a link? Police never came in (as far as I have heard) until atrocities were over and suicide bombers had blown themselves up. The two suicide bombers caught were caught by unarmed people [this has been mentioend in front of Rana Sanaullah in a TV porgamme and he did not contadict it] and were kept under custody until police came in after half an hour later everything has been done. Rana Nisar cousin of Rana Sana did not raise a finger to protect the victims in and just stood by across the ground from Model Town mosque.

Give credit where due, lots of pictures of policemen fighting were and rescuing victims were shown here

This is how it happened:

Security forces battled the assailants for several hours following the co-ordinated attacks after Friday prayers and arrested two attackers, though some of the suspects escaped.

The armed men, including three suicide bombers, stormed into the prayer halls firing guns, throwing grenades and taking hostages, police said.

Lahore tense after mosques' attacks - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - Al Jazeera English

Police took control of the other mosque in the nearby Model Town area after a two-hour gunfight.

Gunmen opened fire indiscriminately at the mosque, before security forces managed to kill one militant and capture two others, eyewitnesses told the BBC.

BBC News - Pakistan mosque attacks in Lahore kill scores

In Model Town, the people fought with the terrorists and overpowered them after the two terrorists had killed many worshippers. However, in Garhi Shahu, many people were rescued after the police launched an operation.

Among the dead were former sessions judge Ameer Ahmad Sheikh, also the Ameer of the Ahmedis Lahore Chapter, Ejazul Haq, a reporter of a private TV channel, and Major General (retd) Nasir Ahmad.

The attackers again started firing at 2:30 pm. Jawans of the Elite Force launched the operation. A police team, led by SP Babar Bukht Qureshi, managed to break open the back door of the building and rescued the trapped worshippers. Three attackers apparently blew themselves up while no details were available about the other attackers, a police officer said.

The attackers also fired shots and hurled a hand grenade at the mosque of Ahl-e-Hadees, adjacent to the City Law College. Indiscriminate firing by the assailants smashed the windowpanes of nearby buildings.

A police official said there were only two attackers inside who eventually blew themselves up. Police recovered two damaged AK-47 rifles and four hand grenades from them, he added. People gathered outside the building raised slogans of Allah-ho-Akbar when police launched the operation. Two armoured vehicles were arranged to rescue the hostages.

82 killed as worship places of Ahmedis attacked in Lahore - GEO.tv

 

[Meesna]

This is incorrect;

Police took control of the other mosque in the nearby Model Town area after a two-hour gunfight.

Gunmen opened fire indiscriminately at the mosque, before security forces managed to kill one militant and capture two others, eyewitnesses told the BBC.

The two suicide attackers were captured by the people then they waited for 35 minutes for police to come in before handing them over to police.

In In-Session this was mentioned in front of Ran Sanaullah and he did not dispute it. Salman Ghani (Nawai Waqt senior reporter) also confirmed this in Jago Dunya as well as the Dr (forgot his name) who is principal of Allama Iqbal Medial College (don't know how he came to know this). No official source has denied this so far.

 

[Meesna]

Pakistani investigators probing last Friday's ghastly terror attacks on two Ahmedi mosques in Lahore's Garhi Shahu and Model Town areas have got some crucial leads in the case which point fingers towards the involvement of some police officials deployed at both places of worship.

According to sources, during interrogation, Muaaz, the militant who was nabbed alive during the terror siege, has revealed several important facts which has now led the investigators to believe that certain security officials were acting as facilitators to the terrorists.

Pak investigators suspect police officials' role in Lahore mosque attack

Of course due credit and appreciation to those who fought the attackers and were not part of any conspiracy.

 

[Meesna]

He shot at least a dozen people before he fell to the ground. I used the opportunity to seize the man, still wearing his suicide vest. Two other men helped me remove his jacket and disarm him. I held him in that position for nearly 35 minutes waiting for police officials so I could hand him over to them,” said Nabeel.

“I had placed a foot just over the man’s neck to make sure he could not move. He kept telling me that he was in a lot of pain and wanted me to remove my foot.

I removed some pressure and asked him why he had killed so many innocent people. He replied that it was his mission to eradicate all infidels from Pakistan. I could not converse with him further after hearing him say that,” stated Nabeel.

Bilal, who is 21-years-old helped capture another terrorist. He was standing on the second floor of the building and had a clear view of the front entrance when he saw armed men walk into the facility.

“The terrorist looked like he was only seventeen. He threw the hand grenade that killed our patron Lt General (retd) Chaudhary Naasir Ahmad. Then he barged through the front door and made his way up the stairs to the second floor. I was hiding behind a couch. The young man was constantly firing. I had a clear view of everything that was happening. Luckily the terrorist did not see me,” said Bilal.

“I knew I had a brief window of opportunity to act. When the terrorist had his back to the place where I was hiding behind, I pounced and grabbed him and yelled to other people to help me overpower him.

The young man was talking in Seraiki, constantly pleading with us to give him a glass of water. I removed the suicide jacket from his torso with the help of a few people,” added Bilal.

“I understand a little Seraiki. I could tell that the boy was constantly abusing and cursing us for capturing him. I had to wait for half an hour before police officials arrived and arrested the young terrorist,” he said.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/17078/saviours-of-the-day-recount-tales-of-horror/

 

[T-Faz]

When the army mosque was attacked, you can bet that there wes internal help that made it possible.

Majority of the attacks have some sort of internal support, this is the grave concern because the extremists were able to infiltrate many sectors since the days of Zia.

I commend those who did good, the two Ahmadi youngsters, the police and others who helped.

I curse those who were responsible for this and I hope that anyone who had a hand in this rots in hell.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

All of the above are acts of Muslims so again you are saying why they are not allowed to live like muslims.... Why they are not considered Muslims because they are not and once again all of the above issues have been discussed again and again in this thread.... sorry I have to repeat myself...

no one on this earth has got right to declare what other is, its nothing more than hypocrisy, there's no proof of what you say about them been non Muslims is right just because some old people told you that nothing can be changed, if we got into theological debate there will be nothing left other than broken verses & a book which needs to be explained by the scholars to made up for the God's inability to explain & distribute his message to common people,, so better avoid going into it because ultimately it will be hurting many sentimental & delusional people

According to ordinance XX they cannot preach but I was talking about the real world they are preaching and they preach and no one is stopping them may you ppl don't have time to walk on streets or meet others in Pakistan that's why you don't know

WHAT!! the people here were on FIRE when they even used word mosque & you think that Muslims of this country will tolerate them preaching their religion despite of the fact that people are against them & there are laws against them & you see posters seeing preaching hate against Ahmadis because of their faith , do you really live in Pakistan which exists on planet Earth?? should i bring in the Ahmadis killed due to their faith?

 

[Kompromat]

When the army mosque was attacked, you can bet that there wes internal help that made it possible.

Majority of the attacks have some sort of internal support, this is the grave concern because the extremists were able to infiltrate many sectors since the days of Zia.

I commend those who did good, the two Ahmadi youngsters, the police and others who helped.

I curse those who were responsible for this and I hope that anyone who had a hand in this rots in hell.

Elimination only rip things apart and ripped stuff is not evident to have gone through any sort of solution which can be considered unfair.

Any killing or attack on any Dominant religion , sect or a religious minority is unjustified and wrong & it does not clear the way for people to get to the heaven they desire neither it satisfies the egos of those who share the same ideas.

The Difference between Jammat e Ahmadiya and Muslims are sever but it does not mean that there cant be some sort of reconciliation between the people following it.

Talking like men is a key to success and picking up a gun is an Idiotic/Moronic act done by losers who dont get their brain sells rich enough to work.

 

[T-Faz]

^^^^^^^^

As long as the WOT continues, the hope for any diplomatic or amicable resolve of matters looks like a long shot.

The ongoing war in our neighbourhood (1979 onwards) and the subsequent turmoil in our country speaks for itself. The falling out between different sects, the laws and the people that sprung up in our nation occurred partly (or mostly) because of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Gulf war and the promotion of the violent version of our peaceful religions ideology. We are linked with blood to the Afghani's (Indian Muslims too) and to a certain extent the Iranians. Their turmoil is our turmoil, we have to work together and change the prevalent thinking their to have a good affect on us.

The 80's saw falling out between Sunni's and Shia's, Ahmadis were shut out, the hudood ordinance and the AK-47 culture has hurt us. The war in Afghanistan has been on going for the last 30 years, two invasions and a civil war has bred the same people in our country too.

Only when the war is over, peace and prosperity occurs, then we can sit down and settle our differences. The first thing is security for all in our country, then prosperity and rights.

Let's hope peace prevails as it has eluded us for some time.

 

[Kompromat]

^^^^^^^^

As long as the WOT continues, the hope for any diplomatic or amicable resolve of matters looks like a long shot.

The ongoing war in our neighbourhood (1979 onwards) and the subsequent turmoil in our country speaks for itself. The falling out between different sects, the laws and the people that sprung up in our nation occurred partly (or mostly) because of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Gulf war and the promotion of the violent version of our peaceful religions ideology. We are linked with blood to the Afghani's (Indian Muslims too) and to a certain extent the Iranians. Their turmoil is our turmoil, we have to work together and change the prevalent thinking their to have a good affect on us.

The 80's saw falling out between Sunni's and Shia's, Ahmadis were shut out, the hudood ordinance and the AK-47 culture has hurt us. The war in Afghanistan has been on going for the last 30 years, two invasions and a civil war has bred the same people in our country too.

Only when the war is over, peace and prosperity occurs, then we can sit down and settle our differences. The first thing is security for all in our country, then prosperity and rights.

Let's hope peace prevails as it has eluded us for some time.

Since i consider myself as an optimist these thoughts go though my mind and create some positive charge which makes me think that one day all hostilities in the neighborhood would be over one day as it is illogical for things to happen the same way twice.

You are right in your opinion about Radicalization in our society because of Afghan immigrants and many other ideas that struck Pakistan in Zia's period.

The difference between right and wrong has to exist somehow and you may or may not agree when two fluids different in nature are combined even when in an experimental environment do not mix with each other and if they do they keep their fundamental structure in existence somehow which does keep their different identities alive.

I do remember the turmoil created between sunnis and Shia's by some politically motivated ideologists which ended up one Muslim and a Pakistani butchering another on the streets.

Personally i have never believed in Sects and i identify myself as a non sectarian Muslim as according to my findings the sects were created for political purposes in the first place & none of them have got anything to do with the real soul of the Religion.

When Prophet SAW said on Khutba hujatul wida quoting the verse of the Holy Quran that today we have completed your religion and completed our blessings upon you. So to me the real Religion is beyond that point and not a 100 years afterwards when Malookis divided Muslims into sects to keep their power which makes me think that we were the first ones to come up with divide and rule idea.

Quran-sahi Hadith-The Family of the Prohpet SAW and the Sahaba are Mentioned by the Prophet SAW himself that these are the ways to look for guidance in anytime and none of these will go invalid in anytime whatsoever.

Later versions and modifications in the Islamic structure are "political" not "Religious" which ultimately makes me believe that whoever tries to bring about their own version has a political agenda to serve and the Religion unfortunately is yet another sacrifice goat for masking their facist agenda - be it the TTP or anyone in this particular scenario .

Regards:

 

[T-Faz]

Since i consider myself as an optimist these thoughts go though my mind and create some positive charge which makes me think that one day all hostilities in the neighborhood would be over one day as it is illogical for things to happen the same way twice.

You are right in your opinion about Radicalization in our society because of Afghan immigrants and many other ideas that struck Pakistan in Zia's period.

The difference between right and wrong has to exist somehow and you may or may not agree when two fluids different in nature are combined even when in an experimental environment do not mix with each other and if they do they keep their fundamental structure in existence somehow which does keep their different identities alive.

I do remember the turmoil created between sunnis and Shia's by some politically motivated ideologists which ended up one Muslim and a Pakistani butchering another on the streets.

Personally i have never believed in Sects and i identify myself as a non sectarian Muslim as according to my findings the sects were created for political purposes in the first place & none of them have got anything to do with the real soul of the Religion.

When Prophet SAW said on Khutba hujatul wida quoting the verse of the Holy Quran that today we have completed your religion and completed our blessings upon you. So to me the real Religion is beyond that point and not a 100 years afterwards when Malookis divided Muslims into sects to keep their power which makes me think that we were the first ones to come up with divide and rule idea.

Quran-sahi Hadith-The Family of the Prohpet SAW and the Sahaba are Mentioned by the Prophet SAW himself that these are the ways to look for guidance in anytime and none of these will go invalid in anytime whatsoever.

Later versions and modifications in the Islamic structure are "political" not "Religious" which ultimately makes me believe that whoever tries to bring about their own version has a political agenda to serve and the Religion unfortunately is yet another sacrifice goat for masking their facist agenda - be it the TTP or anyone in this particular scenario .

Regards:

Its is just a waiting game because all that can be done is being done by the people in charge. Sectarianism can only be solved when there is enough prosperity and faith within a nation and its surroundings.

Prophet Mohammed's (PBUH) life was an example in which he achieved a great deal and changed the ways of a barbaric people into rightful and pious people. However today we see not one of those qualities that ought to be found in our people. It is a simple case of guidance lost, perhaps we can sit down and think things through again.

I do not believe in ownership to something because of name. The biggest concern is that many people as evident are turning away from religion in masses. We can only accept the wishes of someone but the final act of our religion should not be the end that one would not want.

I am very optimistic too and I hope to see things return to normalcy but there is slight hesitation in me because when things are invariably unpredictable now.

 

[Kompromat]

Its is just a waiting game because all that can be done is being done by the people in charge. Sectarianism can only be solved when there is enough prosperity and faith within a nation and its surroundings.

Prophet Mohammed's (PBUH) life was an example in which he achieved a great deal and changed the ways of a barbaric people into rightful and pious people. However today we see not one of those qualities that ought to be found in our people. It is a simple case of guidance lost, perhaps we can sit down and think things through again.

I do not believe in ownership to something because of name. The biggest concern is that many people as evident are turning away from religion in masses. We can only accept the wishes of someone but the final act of our religion should not be the end that one would not want.

I am very optimistic too and I hope to see things return to normalcy but there is slight hesitation in me because when things are invariably unpredictable now.

1: A strong Independent Judicial System.

2: A strong govt with a spine and a Charismatic Leader.

3: New Taxation and law and order system and modernization of Police to world standards.

4: Well Balanced Education system getting along with Madrissas and their modernization.

5: Controlled exploitation of natural resources and a strong economy.


The day when all this would be working as it should i guarantee that people's Mindset will change drastically.

Right now all our Nation has got to worry about is if there is going to be enough food on the table for next meal or how many hours we will be provided with the electricity & it has to change and the prosperity both Economical and social plus Education can change it all.

Religious sentiments will exist but i bet they wont go violent because when people have got to lose something they dont turn wild rather those do who got their egg basket trashed while day dreaming like an idiot.

 

[M8R]

I think i largely agree with Black Blood. Extremism cannot be defeated with force alone - We need to develop strong economy so these people can get some damn jobs.

 

[Kompromat]

I think i largely agree with Black Blood. Extremism cannot be defeated with force alone - We need to develop strong economy so these people can get some damn jobs.

Spot on my friend.

 

[T-Faz]

I think i largely agree with Black Blood. Extremism cannot be defeated with force alone - We need to develop strong economy so these people can get some damn jobs.

So do I and we had a strong economy growth in mid noughties which was bringing about a positive change, but the war in our neighborhood wrecked our progress.

That is why we need peace to bring constant and sustained high growth through which the masses come out of their mentality.