AH-1Z Viper, 1000 Hellfire II Missiles approved for sale to Pakistan.

[LKJ86]

Z-10ME is the upgraded version based on the test in Pakistan.
The engine of Z-10ME is said to be WZ-9H, whose power is improved from 1000KW to 1200KW.
View attachment 499741 View attachment 499742

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinese-weapon-exports.273332/page-89#post-10802464

 

[denel]

Can KA 52 survive against Apache and SAMs with low service ceiling. Further it is evident from history that Russian gadgets have mostly under performed against American tech. The classic examples are Arab/Israel wars, Iraq war and even in Syria air defenses have not performed satisfactory. Most of the Russian exported tech is prone to jamming, spares issues and heavy maintenance costs.

The American tech is still superior the only competitors so far are EU gadgets which are expensive and they mostly avoid to supply them without US consent. The good news is US administration has now explained that they are looking in to matter to once again to start the coalition support fund program for Pakistan as it starts then their is high hope that Pak shall get the stored AH1Zs along with highly capable Hellfire missile.

On other hand once Turkey's T129 platform once matures, they shall go for heavy version so by entering in this program Pak has lot of opportunities. Meanwhile in short span of time if AH1Z is not supplied then we may go for Denel Roovilack.

.. rooivalk.... Rooi-> Red; Valk -> Falcon. Rooivlack - means something vulgar.

 

[maximuswarrior]

Can KA 52 survive against Apache and SAMs with low service ceiling. Further it is evident from history that Russian gadgets have mostly under performed against American tech. The classic examples are Arab/Israel wars, Iraq war and even in Syria air defenses have not performed satisfactory. Most of the Russian exported tech is prone to jamming, spares issues and heavy maintenance costs.

The American tech is still superior the only competitors so far are EU gadgets which are expensive and they mostly avoid to supply them without US consent. The good news is US administration has now explained that they are looking in to matter to once again to start the coalition support fund program for Pakistan as it starts then their is high hope that Pak shall get the stored AH1Zs along with highly capable Hellfire missile.

On other hand once Turkey's T129 platform once matures, they shall go for heavy version so by entering in this program Pak has lot of opportunities. Meanwhile in short span of time if AH1Z is not supplied then we may go for Denel Roovilack.

What you fail to mention is that for a country like Pakistan American hardware is always sanction prone. The Americans change their mind every other day. It all depends on their mood.

Pakistan cannot rely on such a supplier. Even if the supplier has the best hardware available. What good is superior hardware without logistics, spares etc.?

Pakistan must at all cost diversify and look at Chinese and Russian options. Since Pakistan has paid for the AH1Z order it will accept the delivery at any stage. That doesn't mean we should rely on an unreliable supplier like the US. Even if the Russian/Chinese helicopters are inferior or lack on certain levels they are worth it. A better deal for Pakistan would be to setup some sort of JV with China or Russia and produce the helicopters domestically.

 

[denel]

What you fail to mention is that for a country like Pakistan American hardware is always sanction prone. The Americans change their mind every other day. It all depends on their mood.

Pakistan cannot rely on such a supplier. Even if the supplier has the best hardware available. What good is superior hardware without logistics, spares etc.?

Pakistan must at all cost diversify and look at Chinese and Russian options. Since Pakistan has paid for the AH1Z order it will accept the delivery at any stage. That doesn't mean we should rely on an unreliable supplier like the US. Even if the Russian/Chinese helicopters are inferior or lack on certain levels they are worth it. Even better deal for Pakistan would be to setup a JV with China or Russia and produce the helicopters domestically.

That is where the challenge is. If they had gone for Rooivalk long back; everything on it is internally produced. We learnt long long time back you cannot trust the US or Europeans when it comes to sanctions.

 

[313ghazi]

No harm done. They were paid for by the money the Americans were "giving" us. It's not like we've ever seen a cent of it anyway.

 

[maximuswarrior]

That is where the challenge is. If they had gone for Rooivalk long back; everything on it is internally produced. We learnt long long time back you cannot trust the US or Europeans when it comes to sanctions.

I think the Rooivalk option is still very credible today. It is much more reliable for a country like Pakistan.

 

[denel]

I think the Rooivalk option is still very credible today. It is much more reliable for a country like Pakistan.

Yes, as i have said for a very long time, there is a lot of TOT going back but there has been no efforts to capitalise by Pak people; they have fallen into the aid mentality. They need mine proof vehicles desperately, yet they never came to us; to setup a fabrication and manufacturing capability is turn key for us; we did it all over the place - look at Oshkosh/US, UAE, KSA, Kazakstan etc etc. just names are different underneath same pedigree from Armscor/Paramount.
We will deliver the product and have it made specific to needs; we have lived through sanctions and it is in our dna to go against the grain.... proverbial saying here 'we will make a plan'.

 

[baapu]

Yes, as i have said for a very long time, there is a lot of TOT going back but there has been no efforts to capitalise by Pak people; they have fallen into the aid mentality. They need mine proof vehicles desperately, yet they never came to us; to setup a fabrication and manufacturing capability is turn key for us; we did it all over the place - look at Oshkosh/US, UAE, KSA, Kazakstan etc etc. just names are different underneath same pedigree from Armscor/Paramount.
We will deliver the product and have it made specific to needs; we have lived through sanctions and it is in our dna to go against the grain.... proverbial saying here 'we will make a plan'.

Will you give it for free? Are you an approved supplier for US Subsidised equipment? Thats how the Pakistani Trade goes as you are aware.

Pakistan has had mutiple and still has multiple manufacturing facilities for these BTW. But you used the right word. "
turn key"
On a separate note . You deal with them. Let me introduce you to this thread.

 

[qamar1990]

AZ-1H is very good purchase , expense but worth the price . We shound increase one dozen more in future.

well your not getting em did you even read the original post??

 

[denel]

Will you give it for free? Are you an approved supplier for US Subsidised equipment? Thats how the Pakistani Trade goes as you are aware.

Pakistan has had mutiple and still has multiple manufacturing facilities for these BTW. But you used the right word. "
turn key"
On a separate note . You deal with them. Let me introduce you to this thread.

Point being? nothing is for free; but there is no foresight overall. Only one i will say was having some gray cells to get Jf-17 program going -- i wonder how much issues that poor fellow had with vested interested parties around him who were on US payroll.

 

[baapu]

Point being? nothing is for free; but there is no foresight overall. Only one i will say was having some gray cells to get Jf-17 program going -- i wonder how much issues that poor fellow had with vested interested parties around him who were on US payroll.

JF17 has its own history. it evolved out of a program to refurbish a ton of Chinese MIGs Pakistan had. But the Pilots had also experience with F16s. So no matter how much you upgrade and refurbish them the pilots knew they would never be at par with n anything remotely modern. hence 1st iteration was to use bare bones from the old migs a couple of protos were made and widely advertised but eventually a new design was provided by china of a new aircraft with input from Pakistan which is what we see today.
As for the poor fells, really I don't think it was a bad deal.. free money for the people and for the country. who can resisst.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/jf-17-fighter-chinas-weird-mig-21-and-f-16-hybrid-24782

 

[Signalian]

I think the Rooivalk option is still very credible today. It is much more reliable for a country like Pakistan.

1. French engine.
2. Long evaluation process again.

 

[maximuswarrior]

1. French engine.
2. Long evaluation process again.

Agreed. It has some risk to it. Chinese and Russian options are the best.

 

[baapu]

Agreed. It has some risk to it. Chinese and Russian options are the best.

Come , the ones that are real options are China ( because it will be on credit terms ) or America ( because they will be free But dependent on how the relations are at the time of delivery ). Nothing else is a option.

If relations with America are really bad, Pakistan cannot even pay and get weapons from anywhere but China and Russia because everyone has to get approval from America.

I think the Rooivalk option is still very credible today. It is much more reliable for a country like Pakistan.

.. rooivalk.... Rooi-> Red; Valk -> Falcon. Rooivlack - means something vulgar.

What is the radar / avionics in it? you don't require "export certificates" from US to export those helicopters?

 

[denel]

1. French engine.
2. Long evaluation process again.

No big deal on that engine; it was produced here without licence. It also powers our Oryx helos.