AH-1Z Viper, 1000 Hellfire II Missiles approved for sale to Pakistan.

[abbasalai]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1429096030736072

 

[帅的一匹]

Hope PA gets the viper and first thing Pakistanis shall do when they gets their hand on this viper is to send it to China to allow us inspect thoroughly of this helo so that in war with US, we will know what to do with US marine corps.

US Double cross Pakistan and there is no need to be nice to Uncle Sam. To US, it's all about business.

not gonna be possible. USA will keep their eyes closely on those Viper. USA will check it frequently, just Like F16 of PAF.

Viper for China is not some super advanced weapon anymore, we don't need to check it.

in this case, you will put Pakistan in dilemma. we don't wanna put our friends in embarrassment.

 

[SipahSalar]

Hope PA gets the viper and first thing Pakistanis shall do when they gets their hand on this viper is to send it to China to allow us inspect thoroughly of this helo so that in war with US, we will know what to do with US marine corps.

USA is very touchy about its equipment. In 2009 Pakistan Navy was conducting tests of a land attack missile and US started screaming murder that it's harpoons were modified to attack land targets. Can you imagine them being paranoid about something sold 30 years ago? We immediately agreed to inspections and US ended up embarrassing itself.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/world/asia/30missile.html

Point being, they keep a very very close eye on their equipment. They also have support staff with important hardware 24/7. For example, Pakistan Navy's P-3C has US navy personnel with them at all times at Mehran Air Base.

 

[pakdefender]

Pakistan Army Aviation has experienced Cobra pilots so this sale if it goes through will be good for ongoing operations.
In the future we will have a mix of gunships , which is not ideal but we don't have a choice

pakistan will buy three types

MI-35 deal sign
cobra approved
z-10 under trail we will decide

That is most likely to be the case

 

[Paksanity]

AH-1Z is as close as you can get to AH-64D. AH-1Z is far superior to Z-10s and Mi-28s. For its agility it outperforms even Apache. So I am happy with this deal.

It looks to me PA is modelling it's attack heli fleet on the lines of PAF i.e. fewer top of the line birds with many a notch below. As I see it we may have about 15-25 AH-Z, 40 or so Mi-28 and Mi-35 mix. I am not sure about Chinese ones but apparently they are loosing the race.

A thousand Hellfire is a lot of missiles. I am pretty sure bulk of it will be reserved for Anti-Armour role in the east. Most probably bulk of ops in FATA will be carried out by Mi-35s, Cobras (old) and gifted Z-10s.

 

[pakdefender]

For ongoing operations we should also consider surveillance blimps over operational area for 24/7 monitoring and surveillance

 

[Zarvan]

Good point. The trials are not complete. We have already talked about an uprated engine(?WZ16Turbo shaft) and the PA may yet propose changes for best outcome. I think at best it is a work in progress and the long term replacement for our cobras. We need something to match the fire power on the other side and we been after the Zulus for some time. So I think it is a good deal and we should take it.A question that comes to mind is will the Cobras have to be upgraded to be able to fire the hell fire and if so what changes will be required if any?
Araz

I hardly doubt that cobras will be upgraded I think they will be retired

 

[Arsalan]

Repeating the lesson again

• Mi-35s are NOT for the Army, they most likely will be used by Special Forces as Airborne assault element.
  
• Z-10 is under evaluation, 3 of them are already in Pakistan and if their trials are successful they'll replace our old Cobras
• 15 AH-1Z Vipers deal is 'done' by the looks of it & it will be provide the high tech element in our attack heli line up.

However, i must say that i am VERY surprised at this deal, i must admit that i didn't see this one coming.

Well there is a lot to be discussed,
Mi-35 surely will be more of IFV that can fly, the main role seem to be anti insurgency/counter terrorism. They are the best option considering there ability to carry troops in and out of battle field and providing AWESOME fire power, almost as much as any attack helicopter. The firepower is on par any other attack helicopter and troop carrying capability is a plus. They do however lack that sophisticated electronics pack required in modern warfare.

The modern warfare, this is where Z-10 will come in. Although under evaluation, it is most likely that the evaluation wont result in a rejection but in feedback to further improve and customize the platform to meet the PA needs. So in nut shell, the Z-10 seem set to be PA's future attack helicopter. May be in a modified form but still...

now comes this pill that is hard to swallow, the sudden found love of USA for Pakistan and there willingness to provide PA with AH-1Z. Admitted that the had there own requirements to address first. However accepting that now that this is done they are willing to supply their ALL WEATHER ALLY with this LATEST war machine and that the timing is just a coincidence is not possible. Furthermore considering the MASSIVE problems we have faced in maintaining our older fleet time and time again due to various reasons, this choice seem that much more bad one. I understand that we have good experience on these machines, have a well established maintenance facility but do these things out-weight the fragile Pak-US relations and the implication on keeping these helos flying in near future? the army seem to think that it is and they are the ones whos thoughts matter. Still, that dont stop anyone from sharing there view. For me this move is a bad one, specially at 1 billion uS$

We are not paying for it

Sorry but i dont think so, gov have APPROVED the purchase of this equipment worth 1 billion US$. if these were coming in grant then there was no point of Gov approving the funds. Approving the helicopter induction in that case makes some sense since after all these machines are to be operated by the Pakistan's Army so the Pakistan Government is approving there use/induction but approving funds for the helicopters coming in as FMF or grant seems unlikely.

Its Not expensive if you consider 1000 hellfire Block II Missiles plus continued support and spares, training, lifecycle costs etc. Its all accounted for. $952 million is the total cost of those elements.

There must be a big question mark on the bold part. Even in Army's mind, even if they have considered all these risks worth taking.


The only thing i can think of to convince or calm myself is that:
The army correctly values the AH-1Z helicopters as a trust worth platform (a trust worthy machine even thigh not from a trust worthy supplier) and feels that these will form the spear head of Pakistan Army Aviation attack fleet. A Hi-Lo mix. Apart from all this technological advantages, the main thing they may have considered is that with so many other options, these wont be major blackmailing chips anymore. US may not block supplies of spares etc considering that they will know that PA have other options available, and, most probably, operation in form of Z-10 and even Mi-35. So considering all this they are not very concerned that getting these will risk future Attack Helicopter operations even in face of embargo's.

 

[SipahSalar]

now comes this pill that is hard to swallow, the sudden found love of USA for Pakistan and there willingness to provide PA with AH-1Z.

It's not sudden. The deal done in 2010.

 

[Donatello]

This news in the post above, isn't for the Viper Zulu version. The Zulu version has 4 rotor blades as it was one of the major upgrades. Essentially, Viper Zulu is a new chopper that looks like the older Cobra, but capability wise, it's a lot more than the older version. It can carry 16 ATG missiles like the Apache does with 2 sidewinders, or 8 ATG missiles, heavy rocket pods and 2 side winders.

The news above is for the older Cobras which were given to Pakistan for its war on terror. The thread is about DSCA's notification to congress which then requires 30 days for congress to either approve the sale or table it. Until then, not even a bullet can be supplied to anyone as its the law.

If state department has approved, then most probably Congress will as well....with some fake votes of refusal. Plus these are attack choppers, which Pakistan rightfully needs for the genuine COIN operations.....so nothing fishy there. The earlier AH-1Z requests were refused due to various reasons.......but this is indeed a whole new chopper twin engine and four blade chopper.

 

[Beast]

not gonna be possible. USA will keep their eyes closely on those Viper. USA will check it frequently, just Like F16 of PAF.

Viper for China is not some super advanced weapon anymore, we don't need to check it.

in this case, you will put Pakistan in dilemma. we don't wanna put our friends in embarrassment.

The things is in Pakistanis hand. No way , they can afford 24hrs surveillance. It has been done and it can be done.

 

[mughaljee]

Don't Trust . Un Saam.
Love to

 

[Arsalan]

I have heard some talk about Z-10 order ranging between 50-70 units in the long term with local production, provided trials are successful.



If US is selling its Vipers then it means they refused to clear engines for T-129.

oo bahi ge, please.... abhi T-129 baki haa??
are we planning to get a pair of every attack helicopter to have ever made. Mix chat?

What you have said earlier makes sense.

Mi-35 COIN operations, SSG work horse.
AH-1Z, dont know what (a feel good machines but not ONLY FEEL GOOD MACHINE, an option with proven systems and lots of experience on)
WZ-10 (modified/customized after evaluation of the three operational examples) as the main stay and back bone of Pakistan Army Aviation assault helicopters. WE may like to right WZ-10/T-129 in this last line instead of only WZ-10 but i do not think the latter comes with that much liberty of customization and modifications so feel contend with these three for now

 

[Donatello]

It's not sudden. The deal done in 2010.

No it wasn't....it was refused back then.....and then shyt went south after 2011....

Well there is a lot to be discussed,
Mi-35 surely will be more of IFV that can fly, the main role seem to be anti insurgency/counter terrorism. They are the best option considering there ability to carry troops in and out of battle field and providing AWESOME fire power, almost as much as any attack helicopter. The firepower is on par any other attack helicopter and troop carrying capability is a plus. They do however lack that sophisticated electronics pack required in modern warfare.

The modern warfare, this is where Z-10 will come in. Although under evaluation, it is most likely that the evaluation wont result in a rejection but in feedback to further improve and customize the platform to meet the PA needs. So in nut shell, the Z-10 seem set to be PA's future attack helicopter. May be in a modified form but still...

now comes this pill that is hard to swallow, the sudden found love of USA for Pakistan and there willingness to provide PA with AH-1Z. Admitted that the had there own requirements to address first. However accepting that now that this is done they are willing to supply their ALL WEATHER ALLY with this LATEST war machine and that the timing is just a coincidence is not possible. Furthermore considering the MASSIVE problems we have faced in maintaining our older fleet time and time again due to various reasons, this choice seem that much more bad one. I understand that we have good experience on these machines, have a well established maintenance facility but do these things out-weight the fragile Pak-US relations and the implication on keeping these helos flying in near future? the army seem to think that it is and they are the ones whos thoughts matter. Still, that dont stop anyone from sharing there view. For me this move is a bad one, specially at 1 billion uS$


Sorry but i dont think so, gov have APPROVED the purchase of this equipment worth 1 billion US$. if these were coming in grant then there was no point of Gov approving the funds. Approving the helicopter induction in that case makes some sense since after all these machines are to be operated by the Pakistan's Army so the Pakistan Government is approving there use/induction but approving funds for the helicopters coming in as FMF or grant seems unlikely.


There must be a big question mark on the bold part. Even in Army's mind, even if they have considered all these risks worth taking.


The only thing i can think of to convince or calm myself is that:
The army correctly values the AH-1Z helicopters as a trust worth platform (a trust worthy machine even thigh not from a trust worthy supplier) and feels that these will form the spear head of Pakistan Army Aviation attack fleet. A Hi-Lo mix. Apart from all this technological advantages, the main thing they may have considered is that with so many other options, these wont be major blackmailing chips anymore. US may not block supplies of spares etc considering that they will know that PA have other options available, and, most probably, operation in form of Z-10 and even Mi-35. So considering all this they are not very concerned that getting these will risk future Attack Helicopter operations even in face of embargo's.

Sir you think playing with Russians, Chinese, Turkish and Americans was just to get the best deal?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Realistically speaking .. We should go for Vipers aswell as upgraded Z-10s (Gives us a lot of flexibility - options for upgradation etc) !

Screw the MI-35s.... T-129 is a dead deal.