After Vote, Pakistan’s Strongest Ally Should Be India

[Vinod2070]

Not sure what you mean by "Indian people". Majority of them are so dirt poor that they don't time to do silly exchanges with Pakistan.

People who hold grudge against Pakistan are very very tiny minority that happens to be educated elite.

this elite looks at Pakistan in a racist pov,

Why I say it.

For this group of Indian elite, policy makers, baboos etc. every Pakistani is black-faced-Qazab.

Which is like

Those American white racists who view every brown person as Arab.

This racism and stereotyping resulted in horrible killing of Indians in America (and not Arabs in America).

Same racist and stereotyping means Indians suffering $stupid slurs.


And yet

The same Indians treat majority Pakistanis as if they all are hafiz-b@stard-Saeed, and black-faced-Qazab.


As long as this racism and stereotyping exists in Indian baboos, and some of the elite, we'll not see peace.


Even when we get ample opportunities to offer peace and chai on individual basis.


so there you go

Peace

Lots of assumptions here.

Anyway, the point stands. Indians who happen to have the time and energy to look at these issues will change their mind when they can see the changes on the ground.

I frankly don't think there is any racism against Pakistanis as such. The perception of terror being sponsored there is very much there and incidents like 26/11 and Pakistan's response doesn't help.

Anyway, we are trying to look at the future possibilities here, not to say whose shyt smells better!

Absolutely my man. An emphatic yes!





"Mohajarism" is only alive in us the urdu-speaking group.


Every other refugee group has integrated.


peace

I understand that.

Even Urdu speakers should stop calling themselves that and should strongly oppose being addressed as such.

The word denotes a kind of temporary status that is just not true.

 

[FaujHistorian]

@FaujHistorian Let me educate you a little here! My family is from the Punjab side of India...or was 3-4 generations ago...we moved ...90% of our whole village moved....Alhamdulillah my whole family tree of 3-4 generations ago moved (great grandparents, their siblings and cousins) all moved, left their land and whatnot...started from scratch and never thought us the word Mohajirs as we are not people who moved to be called different BUT WE ARE people who moved to be PART of the difference!
..!

Fully and totally agreed.

....
Well, as for the MOHAJIRS they can go back anyday they want...But the land stays with Pakistan as it is Pakistan's not the Mohajirs....they cant carry it with them! So if India wants "peace" or whatnot, they should never talk about land!

Urdu-Mohajirs moved to two main places.

-- south punjab (Khanewal etc.)
-- Karachi Sindh


Both of those areas and the land belonged to locals to begin with.

so you and I are on the same page.

 

[Vinod2070]

@Vinod2070 I replied to the following comment of yours:

Write clearly if ye be true...

Well I was clear.

I meant many of you moved on from your fort of Islam as well.

To non Muslim countries.

So the point about getting a land to freely practice Islam was kinda negated.

@FaujHistorian Let me educate you a little here! My family is from the Punjab side of India...or was 3-4 generations ago...we moved ...90% of our whole village moved....Alhamdulillah my whole family tree of 3-4 generations ago moved (great grandparents, their siblings and cousins) all moved, left their land and whatnot...started from scratch and never thought us the word Mohajirs as we are not people who moved to be called different BUT WE ARE people who moved to be PART of the difference!

Well, as for the MOHAJIRS they can go back anyday they want...But the land stays with Pakistan as it is Pakistan's not the Mohajirs....they cant carry it with them! So if India wants "peace" or whatnot, they should never talk about land!

Go back where?

 

[pakdefender]

india is a dirty word in Pakistan and thats not going to change no matter who comes to power

 

[FaujHistorian]

..... we are trying to look at the future possibilities here, not to say whose shyt smells better!

.....

Aptly put my man. nicely put (there are few instances where the word "shyt" and "nicely put" go so well together ---- Seriously! )

.....
Even Urdu speakers should stop calling themselves that and should strongly oppose being addressed as such.

The word denotes a kind of temporary status that is just not true.

This is what I say.

"mohajir" is derogatory and not just "temporary status".

But unfortunately many in my community wear it as if it is a badge of honor (sadly).

Perhaps this term reflects the "racism" and "ethnic superiority complex" that is so prevelant in my community.


We think Sindhis are not the worth the dirt they stand on. (although nothing could be farther than truth. )

Sindhis welcomed us, gave us home, top jobs and all.

But we did harm in return. We didn't pay in the same way.

We kicked them out of universities, kept them out of homes and access to the port city opportunities.

We killed Sindhi professionals in Karachi to make sure they do not come in and settle in large numbers.

As we didn't allow "nice and easy going Sindhis" in Karachi, guess what

We got "strong armed tribals" from FATA.

And now we complain that talib@n are in Karachi.

Well Duh!

Talib@stards were the only one who could out-muscle the MQM and Urdu-terrorists.

So why are we complaining now.



Anyways this thread is about my-man-mohan Singh.


I think Indians should start a petition for him to visit Pakistan.


And those who don't like him,

Can add tot he petition and say

-- PM Singh, please go visit Pakistan.

---- And stay there


Let's celebrate.

This is no time to bring up bad memories.

Sorry if I did any of the bad stuff. Really really sorry.

This is the time to celebrate the win of people power.


peace

 

[Dubious]

Well I was clear.

I meant many of you moved on from your fort of Islam as well.

To non Muslim countries.

So the point about getting a land to freely practice Islam was kinda negated.

Well, many didnt flee they just exercised their freedom, they used their rights....with British Indian passport, you are/ were easily allowed into UK...at least that is how some of my family went...while others went for a better livelihood as they did not want to be involved in building a nation and hope for a built nation to step in...

You are trying to fold everything into small paras...Lets see people in Pakistan are also made up of the people who were in Pakistan BEFORE THE PORTIONING....well established families...

As for those who had a dream for a land for Islam......... those who had that vision those who strive, protested and finally for it are the ones with the vision, the move from India left them too poor to migrate to foreign land....

while the rest well, they are either locals of the land who were well established and wealthy and few rich families who moved for better jobs and mind you THEIR FAMILIES DID NOT MOVE IN BULK...usually only 1 -2 members would go and establish themselves and send back money...

That is not even an issue...You are talking like Indians in S.Africa and UK fell from heaven...People move it is natural!

Go back where?

Wherever they feel they belong by calling themselves Mohajirs and not Pakistanis

 

[Bang Galore]

Name it. Which part defines "equal territory". Let's have a discussion.

Maybe the Baltoro, Godwin Austen, Gasherbrum(s) all the way up to K2.

Pakistanis want negotiated settlement of any issue that makes our relations bitter.

Just negotiate with us.


That's all.

No one argues with that but Pakistanis remain remarkably short of articulating specific proposals.

Siachin. Negotiate. Don't send your military first and then do ayeeeen bayeeeen shayeeeen.

As I said, what is the proposal?

Water. Negotiate. Don't send your military first and then do ayeeeen bayeeeen shayeeeen.

Again, the proposal?

You want transit trade rights for tiny Afghanistani market,

--

But you all are ignoring 200 million strong Pakistani market.

Pakistani market is larger than combined market of all other countries on our Western side. All other.

Indian baboos are damned fools to pick petty fights with 200 million market and go try to win Irani market (80 million), Afghan (20 million), Central Asian republics (20 million all combined).


Only Iranian economy offers a teeny bit advantage for Indian goods and services. No other country on our Western border has any advantage (over Pakistan) whatsoever from Indian pov.


And yet, so many Indians ignore all that and keep on spreading petty disputes and the use of military, when

Everything can be solved on the table, while enjoying curry, biryani then followed by chai biscuit.

The trade bit is very overplayed. we will gladly do business with Pakistan's "200 million" if we could but I assume that you have some sort of an asking price that you want paid. What exactly is that? Beyond just "negotiations".

But I know very few Indian posters on PDF will understand this. Very very few.

Even fewer Pakistanis. Even you prefer to be wrapped in generalities, rarely are specifics offered that might be the basis of a reasonable discussion.

 

[Vinod2070]

Well, many didnt flee they just exercised their freedom, they used their rights....with British Indian passport, you are/ were easily allowed into UK...at least that is how some of my family went...while others went for a better livelihood as they did not want to be involved in building a nation and hope for a built nation to step in...

You are trying to fold everything into small paras...Lets see people in Pakistan are also made up of the people who were in Pakistan BEFORE THE PORTIONING....well established families...

As for those who had a dream for a land for Islam......... those who had that vision those who strive, protested and finally for it are the ones with the vision, the move from India left them too poor to migrate to foreign land....

while the rest well, they are either locals of the land who were well established and wealthy and few rich families who moved for better jobs and mind you THEIR FAMILIES DID NOT MOVE IN BULK...usually only 1 -2 members would go and establish themselves and send back money...

That is not even an issue...You are talking like Indians in S.Africa and UK fell from heaven...People move it is natural!

OK. That is not how some others may see it but no point debating it further now.

Wherever they feel they belong by calling themselves Mohajirs and not Pakistanis

And where would that be?

Don't you think they were the ones who created Pakistan in the first place? None of the areas now called West Pakistan were keen on a separate country, it were the minority Muslims in UP and Bihar who were the biggest proponents of Pakistan.

Of course, apparently many of them felt that they will easily lord it over the Muslims already in the lands they migrate to.

They didn't look at them too highly, to put it mildly.

So the Muhajirs would be traitors for Indians and apparently the same for some Pakistanis!

Going back (to India) is not an option. Please do understand this.

We neither hate nor love them. They are just foreigners for us.

 

[Bang Galore]

@Bang Galore Had we wanted to be ruled under India, MOST of us WOULDNT have left it for PAKISTAN in the 1st place!

WE left and moved to this land....WHY ON EARTH would we want to go back?

I'm more than a bit confused here. Go back where....ruled under India....what are you going on about? I don't believe there is any connection with anything I have said. FaujHistorian & I were discussing possible proposals on the Siachen dispute..... no connection to your post.

 

[Amolthebest]

Really dont care how not so corrupt person Nawaz is. If he hangs Mushy for failed Kargil adventure he is my man

 

[Dubious]

And where would that be?

How should I know? Ask them

Don't you think they were the ones who created Pakistan in the first place? None of the areas now called West Pakistan were keen on a separate country, it were the minority Muslims in UP and Bihar who were the biggest proponents of Pakistan.

Of course, apparently many of them felt that they will easily lord it over the Muslims already in the lands they migrate to.

They didn't look at them too highly, to put it mildly.

So the Muhajirs would be traitors for Indians and apparently the same for some Pakistanis!

Going back (to India) is not an option. Please do understand this.

We neither hate nor love them. They are just foreigners for us.

why am I not surprised...Naa idher kay rahay naa udher kay...they should have integrated....mere stupidity to think they were getting empty fields of land or could somehow over power those already there! THAT is their mistake based on their thinking and theirs alone to live with or change and integrate! Pakistanis do not like them because of their desire TO BE DIFFERENT and NOT part of Pakistan which was supposed to be the main aim!

I'm more than a bit confused here. Go back where....ruled under India....what are you going on about? I don't believe there is any connection with anything I have said. FaujHistorian & I were discussing possible proposals on the Siachen dispute..... no connection to your post.

@Bang Galore about the going back bit is answer to @Vinod2070 not you...I have mentioned you in the answers to YOUR posts...Please do not quote me out of context!

Your input was asking for land and I said NO WAY...rest came after that!

 

[FaujHistorian]

Maybe the Baltoro, Godwin Austen, Gasherbrum(s) all the way up to K2.

.....

Hey man. Bring peace and bring tourists. share commission. This is the easiest thing to do. Isn't it.

So far Indians have too much emphasis on military control of the territory instead of business and economic opportunities. And same disease has infected Pakistani mindset too.

....
No one argues with that but Pakistanis remain remarkably short of articulating specific proposals.
..

Just like you guys agreed with negotiated settlement with China and removed Chumar post.


Give us the same deal.


Afterall we are much more closer economically and culturally.


Demilitarize as much as possible at this stage. For example demilitarize Siachin.

Line of control can be up for another 5 years or so.

if things remain calm, a phased demilitarization can work there too.


With a clear baseline, that if Pakistan does anything wrong, the military will be back.


Bottom line:

Work with us the same negotiated way as you do with others.


peace

 

[Bang Galore]

@Bang Galore about the going back bit is answer to @Vinod2070 not you...I have mentioned you in the answers to YOUR posts...Please do not quote me out of context!

Your input was asking for land and I said NO WAY...rest came after that!

Rest came after what? You are accusing me of quoting you out of context. This is what you said:

@Bang Galore Had we wanted to be ruled under India, MOST of us WOULDNT have left it for PAKISTAN in the 1st place!

WE left and moved to this land....WHY ON EARTH would we want to go back?

Who on earth can figure anything out & where did you say " No way"? In any case I wasn't asking for any territory, we have enough in India. What was being discussed was sharing of revenues........

 

[Vinod2070]

How should I know? Ask them

OK, so you didn't have a place in mind when you asked them to go back?

why am I not surprised...Naa idher kay rahay naa udher kay...they should have integrated....mere stupidity to think they were getting empty fields of land or could somehow over power those already there! THAT is their mistake based on their thinking and theirs alone to live with or change and integrate! Pakistanis do not like them because of their desire TO BE DIFFERENT and NOT part of Pakistan which was supposed to be the main aim!

You know, the interesting thing is some of these things are exactly the ones that many of you rail against in the West.

Hey man. Bring peace and bring tourists. share commission. This is the easiest thing to do. Isn't it.

So far Indians have too much emphasis on military control of the territory instead of business and economic opportunities. And same disease has infected Pakistani mindset too.

Just like you guys agreed with negotiated settlement with China and removed Chumar post.

Give us the same deal.

Afterall we are much more closer economically and culturally.


Demilitarize as much as possible at this stage. For example demilitarize Siachin.

Line of control can be up for another 5 years or so.

if things remain calm, a phased demilitarization can work there too.


With a clear baseline, that if Pakistan does anything wrong, the military will be back.


Bottom line:

Work with us the same negotiated way as you do with others.


peace

You probably mean well but the dynamics are a bit different in Indo Pak case.

For one, the concept of win win is non existent, any concession is taken as weakness many times.

Many of your proposals make sense. We hope things will pan out that way.

Your real enemies are to your West. We have bigger fish to fry.

 

[Bang Galore]

Hey man. Bring peace and bring tourists. share commission. This is the easiest thing to do. Isn't it.

So far Indians have too much emphasis on military control of the territory instead of business and economic opportunities. And same disease has infected Pakistani mindset too.

If you are agreeing with putting in the territory controlled by Pakistan that was mentioned earlier in that deal, that's fine by me.

Just like you guys agreed with negotiated settlement with China and removed Chumar post.


Give us the same deal.


Afterall we are much more closer economically and culturally.

Very vague, not clear.

Demilitarize as much as possible at this stage. For example demilitarize Siachin.

Line of control can be up for another 5 years or so.

if things remain calm, a phased demilitarization can work there too.

What exactly are you suggesting?. The AGPL has to be recognised & even then where will you chaps demilitarise to? Considering the terrain on either side, you would have to pill back nearly a 100 kms from the present AGPL for India to consider demilitarisation.

Bottom line:

Work with us the same negotiated way as you do with others.

The China issue hasn't been resolved in over 50 years. No real difference. Would gladly negotiate. Agreeing to anything would very much depend on what you are bringing to the table.