AF's plan to replace ailing MiG with 'Make in India' combat aircraft heading for trouble

[dadeechi]

That all makes perfect sense except one thing, why would we phase out the Su-30's so early? It'd still be a formidable bird, not to mention all the pains we went through to customize it w/ all the different sub systems and so on, and we have even managed to start producing them and their spare parts at home.

Doesn't it seem a bit rushed?

IAF started receiving the SU-30s since 2002. IAF would start retiring them gradual between 2025-2030 as the FGFA production gets ramped up.

 

[Avyator]

well i am surprised that you would throw down mirages just 10 years after amssive upgrade worth 2.4 billion dollars(equal to 60 LCA @40 million dollars or 18 rafale
and even more surpsied that even though we are looking at an expensive engine upgrade for jaugers in excess of 1 billion dollars they will not be in service in 2024, i mean by 2024 the process would barely be completed

To my knowledge, Mirages and Jaguars will be around till 2030. The main reason they were upgraded is because no acquisitions were being made, but the Rafale is essentially the replacement for Jaguars and Mirages. We'll also be retiring MiG 29's in 2030, which I presume will be replaced by the LCA Tejas or some foreign LWF.

IAF started receiving the SU-30s since 2002. IAF would start retiring them gradual between 2025-2030 as the FGFA production gets ramped up.

To me, that still seems pretty early to be phasing out such an incredible, heavily customized war machine. Look at how long we used other planes. Unless there is some sort of major, unfixable flaw in the SU-30 engines and we're going to replace our Heavy fighter category completely w/ FGFA's in place of SU-30's, I don't get why we would retire Su 30 at same time as much older planes like MiG 29, Mirage 2000 and Jaguar.

 

[Indrajit]

regardlessly from the very beginning going for rafale when u didnt had the money was wrong decision

That was done primarily to not completely upset the French. The MoD under the previous government had allowed the IAF to pick two high priced fighters in the their short list with complete disregard of the finances. The new government had no choice but to scrap the MMRCA but since the French were going to be upset with that & they were/are important strategically to India, a middle path was found with a direct purchase of 36 aircrafts. The GoI expected to get a good price in return, I'm not sure that they feel that way now since they probably paid more than they wanted to.

The single engined fighters which should never have been thrown in with the heavier fighters unless cost was going to be considered initially are now being given a serious chance. The article is a rubbish one, essentially someone with interests quibbling about others not getting in.

also operating 6-8 platforms for fighters alone will be nightmare, no country in the world including the USA or china does that, whom economies are 20x to 10x greater than india

US & China can afford to do that since they largely make their own aircrafts. When you are buying from foreign sources, it would be wise not to put all your eggs in one basket.

 

[migflug]

India would be retiring many of the ones that you have listed.


View attachment 345983

it will take late 20s to achieve 200 numbers for f 16. Manufacturing/ shifting dosen't happen overnight. It will take atleast a decade for deal to finalize +shifting production line+ production of f16 @20 per year for 200. Mostly around 2028. Also there wont be 126 Rafale for sure, at best 18 more follow on(which itself has been denied by govt).


IAF BY 2030:
su 30mki 260-70(upgraded to super sukhoi)
mig 29 60-62(start retiring by 30/35)
mirage 49 (start retiring by 30/35)
jaguar 130- 140(start retiring by 2030)
tejas 120
rafale 36+18
F16/Gripen 90/126/200
FGFA /pak fa 0-63++


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/afs-plan...ading-for-trouble.457263/page-3#ixzz4O4JAnVpZ

 

[Allen Iverson]

Obvious despite Indian members huffing and puffing, Tejas sucks, nobody wants it even their own Air Force

Tejas is a cute little boy doing things that our Airforce never believed that he can do.. After proving that the cute little boy can also kick asses provided the support and time it requires to mature, our Airforce agreed to induct in good numbers.. Tejas Manufacturing methods are still mediocre, but Tejas itself as a Light wright fighter is extremely good.. What we need is to learn from the western powers to implement modern methods in Manufacturing to build tejas in numbes..

Agree, logistics nightmare, crazy Indians, a collection of available fighters from all over the world, we should sell them j-10 to make it complete

I see you have fun here, piggy backing on the Pakistanis in bashing Tejas and IAF without knowing the ground reality..
There is an other side to it.. Do u know why Pakistanis are so obsessed on Indian procurements plans and offers 1000s of free advices?? It is because of their Arses are Burning to see Indians getting everything top class in the world but pakistan couldn't even get Nuts and bolts from western world..
Same applies for china.. Last time I heard, your SSBNs / SSNs were the noisiest in the world, beating peak newyork traffic noise and also your multitude of fighters starting from j10,j11,j12,j13, .... J100, j1000 are all running on foreign engines and if Russia shuts its doors from exporting engines, then you wont have any fighter planes to fly in few years.. LOL..So much for the Super power of the world which can Challenge USA... So shall we talk about them here??

US & China can afford to do that since they largely make their own aircrafts. When you are buying from foreign sources, it would be wise not to put all your eggs in one basket.

Dude are you seriously putting USA and China in the same league..?? If China is a manufacturer then what is India?? they also outsource engine and we also outsource engines. Big deal huh??

 

[Archie]

So does anyone know why France and Russia were not invited? And also why the rush now, as far as i heard India was mass-producing Tejas and they already has 2 squadrons raised.

We have not raised 2 Sqds of Tejas,
the First Sqd is under process of being raised with 8 Aircraft out of 20 being inducted,
IAF has ordered only 120 Tejas
Currently Their are 6 Sqds of Mig 21 and 4 Sqds of Mig 27 Left in Service
4 Mig27 Sqds will be replace by 2 Sqds of Su30 MKI and 2 Sqds of Rafale which are on order, while Tejas will replace the 6 Mig 21 Sqds
By the time all these inductions are completed, IAF will be requiring a replacement for the 140+ Jaguars currently in service and which are supposed to retire between year 2024-30
Tejas cannot replace the Jaguars since it cannot fulfill the role performed by Jaguars in IAF
The only aircrafts which can actually do that are Rafale, F/A18 E/F and F-16 Blk 70

 

[INDIAISM]

IAF started receiving the SU-30s since 2002. IAF would start retiring them gradual between 2025-2030 as the FGFA production gets ramped up.

And what makes you think that IAF is going to retire Su 30 Mki before their Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 which are 2 decades older then Su 30Mki.....

 

[dadeechi]

And what makes you think that IAF is going to retire Su 30 Mki before their Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 which are 2 decades older then Su 30Mki.....

HAL has started overhauling the SU-30 MKI which would give 25 years of life. The question is if India would overhaul and upgrade all of them to Super Sukhoi standard or not.

The ones which are overhauled and upgraded would remain in service until 2045.

@Avyator

it will take late 20s to achieve 200 numbers for f 16. Manufacturing/ shifting dosen't happen overnight. It will take atleast a decade for deal to finalize +shifting production line+ production of f16 @20 per year for 200. Mostly around 2028. Also there wont be 126 Rafale for sure, at best 18 more follow on(which itself has been denied by govt).


IAF BY 2030:
su 30mki 260-70(upgraded to super sukhoi)
mig 29 60-62(start retiring by 30/35)
mirage 49 (start retiring by 30/35)
jaguar 130- 140(start retiring by 2030)
tejas 120
rafale 36+18
F16/Gripen 90/126/200
FGFA /pak fa 0-63++


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/afs-plan...ading-for-trouble.457263/page-3#ixzz4O4JAnVpZ

F-16 deal would be finalized in first half of 2017. The USP of LM's offer is that it would deliver quickly. Note that LM is not building a new plant ground up but would be transferring it.

Cross Posting:

Well LM's Texas plant had a peak production of one F-16 fighter per day.

The last F-16s would rollout of the LM's TX plant in OCT-2017 and the LM's TX plant plans to focus on F-35 production starting 2019.

The TX production line would be moved to India in 2018. That gives 6 years to produce 200 fighters which is easily achievable for LM.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-india-fighter-jet-musings-news-developments-updates-f16-f18-gripen-any-other.448850/page-21#ixzz4O5juz1uD

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

Tejas is a cute little boy doing things that our Airforce never believed that he can do.. After proving that the cute little boy can also kick asses provided the support and time it requires to mature, our Airforce agreed to induct in good numbers.. Tejas Manufacturing methods are still mediocre, but Tejas itself as a Light wright fighter is extremely good.. What we need is to learn from the western powers to implement modern methods in Manufacturing to build tejas in numbes..


I see you have fun here, piggy backing on the Pakistanis in bashing Tejas and IAF without knowing the ground reality..
There is an other side to it.. Do u know why Pakistanis are so obsessed on Indian procurements plans and offers 1000s of free advices?? It is because of their Arses are Burning to see Indians getting everything top class in the world but pakistan couldn't even get Nuts and bolts from western world..
Same applies for china.. Last time I heard, your SSBNs / SSNs were the noisiest in the world, beating peak newyork traffic noise and also your multitude of fighters starting from j10,j11,j12,j13, .... J100, j1000 are all running on foreign engines and if Russia shuts its doors from exporting engines, then you wont have any fighter planes to fly in few years.. LOL..So much for the Super power of the world which can Challenge USA... So shall we talk about them here??


Dude are you seriously putting USA and China in the same league..?? If China is a manufacturer then what is India?? they also outsource engine and we also outsource engines. Big deal huh??

India military can remain staying the way she is today with more ministers of your gross self-denialistic type of mindset and outlook.

 

[Indrajit]

Dude are you seriously putting USA and China in the same league..?? If China is a manufacturer then what is India?? they also outsource engine and we also outsource engines. Big deal huh??

I wasn't, the two were mentioned in the post i quoted & I referred to them in the same manner. China can't have a much more diversified fleet because no one is selling them any, except for Russia. The point is that since we don't make our own aircraft, restricting to a few platforms with high numbers may not be desirable.

 

[ziaulislam]

That was done primarily to not completely upset the French. The MoD under the previous government had allowed the IAF to pick two high priced fighters in the their short list with complete disregard of the finances. The new government had no choice but to scrap the MMRCA but since the French were going to be upset with that & they were/are important strategically to India, a middle path was found with a direct purchase of 36 aircrafts. The GoI expected to get a good price in return, I'm not sure that they feel that way now since they probably paid more than they wanted to.

The single engined fighters which should never have been thrown in with the heavier fighters unless cost was going to be considered initially are now being given a serious chance. The article is a rubbish one, essentially someone with interests quibbling about others not getting in.



US & China can afford to do that since they largely make their own aircrafts. When you are buying from foreign sources, it would be wise not to put all your eggs in one basket.

it is also not wise to buy every type of fighter their is in the world, i mean a simple su 30/mig29-mirage-LCA combo with future pakfa would have been great in my opinion

 

[Indrajit]

it is also not wise to buy every type of fighter their is in the world, i mean a simple su 30/mig29-mirage-LCA combo with future pakfa would have been great in my opinion

True but I have given a general opinion on why multiple platforms in these circumstances may not be a bad thing. A point of interest, the IAF wanted to buy100+ Mirage 2000's, the MoD said no to a single vendor & wanted other offers. That was the genesis of this whole MMRCA thing.

 

[migflug]

It may be a while before Govt’s plan to build fighter jets in India takes off
NAYANIMA BASU

Local manufacturing hinges on proposal to make the country an export hub

NEW DELHI, OCTOBER 25:


The government’s plan to manufacture single-engine fighters in the country is likely to face delays even though the Defence Ministry has notified request for information (RFI) from three firms to participate in the programme under the ‘Make in India’ initiative.

US aerospace giants Boeing and Lockheed Martin and Sweden’s SAAB have approached the government as a response to the RFI with their “unsolicited proposals” that have apparently failed to “impress” the Defence Ministry, a senior official told BusinessLine.

This is because, even though these companies have enumerated their plans to manufacture these jets under the ‘Make in India’ programme, the Ministry is keen on plans to transform India into an export hub for these jets, the official said.

Once the RFI is issued, the government floats Request for Proposals (RFPs) to shortlist the competing firms, according to norms. However, the government is learnt to be taking one step at a time in selecting the firm that will finally be chosen to manufacture the fighter jets here.

“The RFP will take time to be issued. A lot of factors need to be ascertained here apart from Make in India, logistics and infrastructure. The issue here is that once the armed forces buy these, what thereafter? Hence, export is a big factor, and indigenisation will play a crucial part in it,” the official said.

Boeing has already offered to manufacture their F/A-18 Super Hornet here with full transfer of technology (ToT) to their Indian joint venture partners. Lockheed Martin has gone a step ahead and said it will develop a warplane F-16 Block 70 exclusively for the Indian market. The US government is also aggressively pushing for these two under the US-India Defence Trade and Technology Initiative.

On the other side, Swedish SAAB has said it will build an entire industrial ecosystem in India under ‘Make in India’ for the Gripen E. Talks on selling the Gripen E were held during the visit of Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Lofven to India in February.

Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha had earlier said that the proposals from these three firms had been received by the government but nothing had been decided. “An early decision on indigenous ‘Make in India’ fighter aircraft project will greatly enhance our operational capability in the near term,” he had said during the Air Force Day earlier this month.

The Defence Ministry plans to replace the ageing MiG-21s with these fighter jets. Last month, India had finalised a $8.7-billion deal to procure 36 French Rafale warplanes

 

[Navin A]

View attachment 345433

Can you not go by without your usual unnecessary trolling?

Obvious despite Indian members huffing and puffing, Tejas sucks, nobody wants it even their own Air Force

Please provide the source of the iteration the Air Force has said this?

 

[abc123xyx]

buy the mig35 under MII and end this dacade old drama.
NATO countries never going to buy f16 anymore only mig35 offers export potential to third world if india choose to buy it..