Afghan withdrawal would hurt India: McCain

[Tshering22]

india are lucky to even have anything to do with afghanistan?

That's for Afghans to decide, and the commoners are quite comfortable with our engineers and technicians making their common life easier.

they dont share a border

Thanks to you.

they dont share a religion

We're neither interested to. BTW that statement is somewhat wrong; There are a small number of Afghan Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists (most have run away due to religious persecution, to West or come to India).

You share a religion and still they don't like you.

they dont share customs

South Asian customs are common for all of us regardless of religion. Agree or disagree it doesn't change the truth.

they dont share ethnicity

Ethnicity, language, religion, race aren't the only things necessary for good friendship and after suffering so much, I thought you'd have learnt that. Pakistan also doesn't share ANY OF THESE with Chinese; does it stop you from being their friend?

who cares what india think?

Indians do and so do common Afghans who welcome our humanitarian work.

they are an unnecessary player in the region and it would be better if it was left to pak and afghanistan

You had Afghanistan for yourself in all these years and what did you give them? Ask those who've escaped Taliban's barbaric attacks. They'd give you an answer.

only difference is uncle sam wants india there, i predict soon enough they will be running away, by themselves.

Wishful thinking. India doesn't have military bases in Afghanistan and neither are we interested in establishing any. To cover your activities we've already got a couple of listening posts and a bay in Tajikistan with Russians. Our work in Afghanistan is purely non-military and humanitarian.

Instead of "running away", they instead have invited Russia and (tacitly) Iran (who's also agreed to a joint Indo-Iran-Russian committee on Afghanistan). US knows that it has lost you to China and that Chinese will be handling you from this year onwards. So it has lost a huge base in South Asia. Afghanistan has weak politics and easily manageable by US experts. Having a base there will be a gold mine for NATO: they can keep eyes on you, us, Chinese and Russians at the same time while ensuring that Taliban terrorists don't return.

After this do you think they're hurrying to go anywhere? They might remove most of their soldiers but intelligence bases and CIA units will be present there big time. Removing army doesn't mean complete withdrawal.

 

[Spring Onion]

SO???

Is US ready to burden its taxpayer just for looking after Indian interests ?

 

[SMC]

See this is where you're repeatedly going wrong. This paranoia that your existence is in threat, caused Zia to radicalize local population to such an extent that their aggression still remains despite decades after Soviet war. Your existence was never a threat from Soviet Union till US had decided to play the card in Afghanistan. What Karan and rest of us are trying to tell you is that had you stayed out of Afghanistan and let US handle it head on themselves along with NATO, USSR might have over-looked you. Soviets already had an open-port agreement with all of our sea ports from west to east, meaning that transit was not much of a problem at all already for them. This is for those who are saying that they wanted an access to warm waters.

Dude, you may call it paranoia and all, but that's obviously your opinion. We look at it differently. You're calling it paranoia because obviously soviets were not able to do it and hence you make the assumption that it probably would've never happened. But regardless, if that's what you believe than fine, but we look at it differently.

But the interesting thing, Indians talk almost exclusively about what Pakistan did in Afghanistan int he 80s and nearly talk nothing about US. Pretty much all blame is shifted on Pakistan. US was arguably a bigger player than Pakistan.

Economy can never slow down permanently but it can be delayed as long as half a century. As you said, we agree that Zardari is not your problem, your problem is fundamentalism in the society; a.k.a less times in laboratories and research centers and more time in madrassas. Science and technology are key to any national development and rather than focusing on developing surplus scientists and engineers, your leaders digressed into religion for the sake of 1 war so much that could be even won with simple nationalism. And see the damage it did.

The part about less time in labs and more in madrassas is really ignorant. Yes lot of people belong to madrassas, but you need some variety. Vast majority of those who go to schools don't go to madrassas. I am not a fan of madrassas either.

Now believe it or not, Zardari IS one of the problems. He keeps investors away and with his corruption has kept the economy seriously down. If he and his government leaves, it would add a good 2-3% to our growth rate.

I am not intending to offend religion or anything here but saying that this problem existed much before Zardari's arrival and alongside your post-Soviet war status. Musharaf's time saw some growth in your economy because the man was more pan-national than pan-religion. He wanted to modernize and develop Pakistani image to that of Turkish levels. However, due to decades of radicalism and narrow-mindedness of general lower-class citizenry, he was unable to change that.

Well yea, no doubt about it regarding radicalism. But we've never had a very deeply religious leader, perhaps barring Zia. Yes, Afghan war caused a lot of problems in the end regarding creating radicals, but it was a necessary in the end. I do believe that something needs to be done about the radicals, however it's not clear what it can be and it will take a while to fix the problem. We're moving in the right direction though by eliminating some of the major terrorist groups that formed post-soviet invasion.

Leaving it to Americans and not participating in 80s Afghan war would have meant that you'd have let US sweat it out while you would be semi-neutral and hence you could have avoided participating in WOT simply because there would have been no Taliban had your generals disbanded them even after 80s war.

The ideology still existed after the war. Pakistan did not attempt to create the Taliban, it was merely formed between Afghan warlords. The fact that the ideology would've still existed would've meant that we'd have faced the problem anyway.

 

[Tshering22]

then y did u involve ur self in north east india via bangladesh,in indian punjab.

Attempted blunder.. what else to say?

 

[Tshering22]

SO???

Is US ready to burden its taxpayer just for looking after Indian interests ?

We just got them around 60,000 jobs today, Jana. Is that a burden? It is mutual benefits scheme.

 

[r3alist]

That's for Afghans to decide, and the commoners are quite comfortable with our engineers and technicians making their common life easier.



Thanks to you.



We're neither interested to. BTW that statement is somewhat wrong; There are a small number of Afghan Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists (most have run away due to religious persecution, to West or come to India).

You share a religion and still they don't like you.



South Asian customs are common for all of us regardless of religion. Agree or disagree it doesn't change the truth.



Ethnicity, language, religion, race aren't the only things necessary for good friendship and after suffering so much, I thought you'd have learnt that. Pakistan also doesn't share ANY OF THESE with Chinese; does it stop you from being their friend?




Indians do and so do common Afghans who welcome our humanitarian work.



You had Afghanistan for yourself in all these years and what did you give them? Ask those who've escaped Taliban's barbaric attacks. They'd give you an answer.



Wishful thinking. India doesn't have military bases in Afghanistan and neither are
we interested in establishing any. To cover your activities we've already got a couple of listening posts and a bay in Tajikistan with Russians. Our work in Afghanistan is purely non-military and humanitarian.

Instead of "running away", they instead have invited Russia and (tacitly) Iran (who's also agreed to a joint Indo-Iran-Russian committee on Afghanistan). US knows that it has lost you to China and that Chinese will be handling you from this year onwards. So it has lost a huge base in South Asia. Afghanistan has weak politics and easily manageable by US experts. Having a base there will be a gold mine for NATO: they can keep eyes on you, us, Chinese and Russians at the same time while ensuring that Taliban terrorists don't return.

After this do you think they're hurrying to go anywhere? They might remove most of their soldiers but intelligence bases and CIA units will be present there big time. Removing army doesn't mean complete withdrawal.

1. the afghans decided very little, uncle sam pulls the strings.
2. we have always been separate from bharat, the afghans have been even more separate, i dont have time to debunk hinduvata ideology here.

3. pashtuns and afghans are desi in no shape of form, they are not even south asian.

4. race is important to a lot of people in s.asia, keep on kidding yourself, afghans are not about to let you join their family any time soon ROFL


they will take your money as long as you are happy to give it, lets see what you do from there?

5.you suddenly care so much about afghans, who not feed your own? why are you so cruel to dalits?

 

[Spring Onion]

We just got them around 60,000 jobs today, Jana. Is that a burden? It is mutual benefits scheme.

and you think US will decided to stay in Afghanistan for India for that ??


Afghanistan war is much much huge and damaging thing for US and allies. One by one all are withdrawal and Indians still think that US will kill its own soldiers and spend own taxpayer money for peanuts from India?

 

[Tshering22]

and you think US will decided to stay in Afghanistan for India for that ??


Afghanistan war is much much huge and damaging thing for US and allies. One by one all are withdrawal and Indians still think that US will kill its own soldiers and spend own taxpayer money for peanuts from India?

Of course not. But having lost you to China, I definitely think they'd consider an alternate country to establish base where they can still be the string-pullers. Which other country can offer them that kind of political influence in the region coupled with unprecedented access to all the "countries of interest" than Afghanistan (Tajikistan as well but that's under Russian control and Indian collaboration)?

 

[muse]

r3

the US is coaching india to be a regional boss, to counter and surround china, to weaken and undermine pakistan

india has no real natural connection to afghanistan - it was created and based on false premises thus endowing india with more respect and "weight" then it would have otherwise gotten

hence indian concerns = us concerns

I don't think that's what the article is about, in my opinion it's more about the pressure McCain as a leading voice of conservative and US military in the US Senate, seems to be applying pressure on Obama to make a public statement in India along the lines that US is not going to withdrawn -- and I don't for a minute think that the US will withdraw, if it must leave, it will do so after the realization that its population cannot afford more sons and daughters in the Afghan grinder.

India as a arbiter of Afghan affairs? No, that's a bit of a stretch. India are involved with the National Alliance and the former Pashtun communists but India only have relevance in Afghanistan as a counter to Pakistani influence , by itself, they are better to stick to singing and dancing movies.

Plus to be fair, all this tripe about coalition of the willing, (more like the coerced), the US can use any kind of help any quarter can provide it.

Soon you will see that the Karzai brothers fortune may be reversed (internal conflict among US policy makers) - the US policy makers think they can last in Afghanistan for a long time, those who seek adjustments in US policy will likewise plan for the long haul - but trust me on this, US policy in Afghanistan is loser as are those tied to it.


I do agree that US want to groom India, but Indian wasn't born yesterday, Indian will want to milk the US while ensuring that it avoids conflicts that can threaten strategic Indian interests - today you read all kinds of anti-China statements from Indians who live in the US, inside India, aside from the usual clowns who end up as their defense ministers, and chauvinistic media, one does not detect a serious appetite to play fodder for US policies.

 

[r3alist]

r3





I don't think that's what the article is about, in my opinion it's more about the pressure McCain as a leading voice of conservative and US military in the US Senate, seems to be applying pressure on Obama to make a public statement in India along the lines that US is not going to withdrawn -- and I don't for a minute think that the US will withdraw, if it must leave, it will do so after the realization that its population cannot afford more sons and daughters in the Afghan grinder.

yes true, but the indian aspect to this is not just a front but also a genuine concern, theres no point in this coaching for india if they dont go out and get on the field is there?

India as a arbiter of Afghan affairs? No, that's a bit of a stretch. India are involved with the National Alliance and the former Pashtun communists but India only have relevance in Afghanistan as a counter to Pakistani influence , by itself, they are better to stick to singing and dancing movies.

India as a arbiter of Afghan affairs with regards to pakistan - very possibly

^^ is probably more accurate


it would be dangerous to underestimate the combination of anti-pakistani indians and anti-pakistani afghans all in the same place

Soon you will see that the Karzai brothers fortune may be reversed (internal conflict among US policy makers) - the US policy makers think they can last in Afghanistan for a long time, those who seek adjustments in US policy will likewise plan for the long haul - but trust me on this, US policy in Afghanistan is loser as are those tied to it.

lets hope the US can see the light, although i am not optimistic.

I do agree that US want to groom India, but Indian wasn't born yesterday, Indian will want to milk the US while ensuring that it avoids conflicts that can threaten strategic Indian interests - today you read all kinds of anti-China statements from Indians who live in the US, inside India, aside from the usual clowns who end up as their defense ministers, and chauvinistic media, one does not detect a serious appetite to play fodder for US policies.

[/QUOTE]


the US were not born yesterday as well - they will want some bang for their buck as well, are we really saying the indians will be able to actually USE the americans - if thats the case then maybe those indians are right and they DO rule the world

 

[muse]

it would be dangerous to underestimate the combination of anti-pakistani indians and anti-pakistani afghans all in the same place

I do agree that's a dangerous combination and I don't want to be seen as not taking that seriously however, Afghans are terribly contentious and a mercenary lot.

lets hope the US can see the light, although i am not optimistic

neither am I - there is a thread on this board "Why Great Institutions Fail" - I strongly encourage reading it.

So many continue to advise US that staying there (which by definition means hostilities) is a trap, but.. yeah, read that thread.

the US were not born yesterday as well - they will want some bang for their buck as well, are we really saying the indians will be able to actually USE the americans - if thats the case then maybe those indians are right and they DO rule the world

I do take your point, the US find themselves in a rather desperate situation (after expending close to one half a TRILLION SS -- just imagine had they been reasonable and sought a win win) - anyway back to the Indian and bang for the buck, some in India may seek to become the substance of that bang, but there are a lot more profitable counter propositions for the Indian than dying for the American.

 

[BATMAN]

We just got them around 60,000 jobs today, Jana. Is that a burden? It is mutual benefits scheme.

Contrarily, i heard Obama telling that he is in India to give away 50'000 jobs to Indians in US.
There was no mention what you falsify.

US save billions by evading transit tax and smuggling of Indian goods into Pakistan. This is what i call mutual benefit scheme.

Afghan withdrawal will definitely hurt both US and India, because it will unearth the terror network which India is running in Afghanistan against Pakistan.

India helping terrorists