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Afghan aggression in Pakistan

I have never seen anyone as shameful as Afghanis... I shouldnt even speak their country's name, it bitters my tounge... They speak about Pakistan getting annihilated and Pakistan causing all problems in Afghanistan, land of milk and honey (i'm not sure if they even have these, afghanistan is a desert), when in reality they themselves have caused the problems. Just remember that you are ntohing but a vassal state, first of Russias, Pakistan, and now US. You should be happy Pakistan didn't annex your country, God forbid that happens.
 
Wahhh,
When ever the word taliban comes up, the usual reaction is, ohh we did not create it, we were just neighbors, jus said hi hello to each other.

Untill you accept your fault in creation of Taliban, arming them, financing them and politically supporting them, you will remain in denial!


Usual explanations given by pakistani members are , they were mujhahideens we helped during soviet invasion, FALSE: Taliban was armed recruited, and financed by ISI/PA from starting late 93 early 94 from bordering areas and afghan refugees in madarsas

What were Pakistani military advisors and commanders doing with taliban during the raid on kabul against Massouds forces

Why were there extensive casualties of pakistanis when Ahmed Shah Massoud and his handfull of men, defeated mullah forces in kabul in late 94, why were taliban ressuplied by PA with armored trucks and ammunition to take herat in sept 95.

How the hell did mardarsa trained talibs get 105 mm arty and 60, 81 mm mortar, to pound kabul for straight 45 days?


I still dont find the logical ground where pakistani members claim they had nothing to do with creation, arming, financing and supporting the draconian rule of taliban.


Taliban were not created in 94... they were the mujahideen who had fought the soviets during the cold war or afghan jihad....... and in the 90s they formed movement.......and were opposed by the ex communist NA minorities...... they just didnt pop out of madrassas in 94 thanks to ISI or PA as you like to think...... taliban movement was started by Mullah Omar and not hameed gul... we only accepted them diplomatically after the world didnt pay much attention to our cries for HELP .... We had to do what was in our national interest...... and we werent the only ones who accepted them... tht included KSA,UAE and even USA.... and even now USA is in contact with them and karzai is offering Mullah Omar to run for President... :lol:

Hamid Karzai being the head of Popalzai Pashtun tribe has a lot of influence in Kandahar region. He even dared taking the funeral of his father during Taliban rule from Quetta to Kandahar and Mullah Omar did nothing out of fear of revolt.

That must be why he spent most of his life in quetta,Pakistan? :lol:
 
How the hell did mardarsa trained talibs get 105 mm arty and 60, 81 mm mortar, to pound kabul for straight 45 days?

.

Probably the same placethey got their armor captured stolen or scavaged from the russians?

Equipment in Service Equipment supplied by the former USSR remains in service whenever spares can be obtained. The following represents a listing of equipment that we believe may be available to the Taliban:

Armour Main Battle Tanks/Light Tanks: T-34/85; T-54; T-55; T-62; PT-76.

Reconnaissance Vehicles/Armoured Fighting Vehicles: BDRM-2. APC: BTR-40; BTR-50; BTR-60; BTR-70; BTR-80; BTR-152; BMP-1; BMP-2.

Taliban estimate - operational: 100 main battle tanks; 250 armoured fighting vehicles.

Artillery Towed: 120mm 2S9 SPM/H; 76 mm M1938 mountain gun; 76mm M1966 mountain gun; 76mm M1942 FG; 85mm D-48 ATG; 100mm M1944 FG; 122mm D-30 howitzer; 122mm M1938 howitzer; 152mm D-1 howitzer; 152mm D-20 gun-howitzer.

Multiple rocket launchers: 122mm BM-21; 132mm BM-13-16; 140mm BM-14-17; 220mm BM-22.

Taliban estimate - operational: 200 guns of all calibres.

Taliban Military

Interestingly from the same article.

Current estimates indicate between 5,000 to 7,000 Pakistanis - or over half of the total foreign contingent - are operating in support of the Taliban. Increasingly ethnic Pashtuns from Pakistan's Baluchistan and North-West Frontier Province border belt - who share a language and culture with the Afghan Taliban - have been joined by volunteers from Punjab, Sindh and Karachi. For the purpose of analysis, the Pakistani contingent can be broken up into three broadly distinct but occasionally overlapping categories. The first and most numerous consists of youths recruited en masse from Pakistani madrassahs (seminaries) of the Deobandi school - particularly those affiliated to the Jamaat-e-Ulema Islami (JUI) party which maintains close links with the Taliban. Waves of madrassah youths, quickly mobilised and often with little or no military training, were particularly important in the period between 1995 and 1998 when Taliban advances often entailed heavy losses and the requirement for rapid reinforcements was paramount.
 
Sandy, learn your facts first. Accept that even member states of the "free world" were instrumental in creating taleban (as an 'idea' and as a movement)

hell -- if i were to misconstrue the way you bhartis do, i'd say blame the soviets...had they not had expansionist designs, had they not obliterated entire Afghan villages (of course with your backing) there would never have been the need to help the nationalist resistance to help oust them and their occupation forces

for us, it wasnt just "getting back" at the soviets..... it was also a purely mathematical and logical decision on our part.
 
I appreciate your thoughts and to some degree agree with it. But lets not forget the dynamics of afganistan are either too in favor or against Pakistan. Stability on Afghanistan is in Pakistan's interest as we dont want a 'permanent backyard migraine'. Remember Afghanistan 'needs' Pakistan to grow as a stable and credible country but not the other way around.

If they want to achieve , that 'credible stability' they must make sure they do not worry us on the AFPAK border. Remember we have a country as powerful as the US and NATO by the balls in Afghanistan. Because we have the geographically and strategically important 'switch board' , RAW met a terrible end in 1996 at the hands of their Pakistani 'buddies' because of obvious reasons , similar to what ISAF is facing.

India is a tiny target , once grey hounds go home!

care to explain your capabilities? maybe you know something that musharraff didn't when he was shivering in his boots

Sandy, learn your facts first. Accept that even member states of the "free world" were instrumental in creating taleban (as an 'idea' and as a movement)

hell -- if i were to misconstrue the way you bhartis do, i'd say blame the soviets...had they not had expansionist designs, had they not obliterated entire Afghan villages (of course with your backing) there would never have been the need to help the nationalist resistance to help oust them and their occupation forces

for us, it wasnt just "getting back" at the soviets..... it was also a purely mathematical and logical decision on our part.

For sake of discussion, lets assume taliban as an indigenous movement with zero involvement of pakistan, Lets assume Ahmed shah massods forces as pure evil hence out of the equation.

Explain how democratic government of pakistan under benazir bhutto, supporting taliban and their actions. Pakistanis are extremely symphatic to gujrat riot victims, sikh riot victims kashmir insurgency victims, all muslims in India. How do you explain your govenments, bhutto-nawaz-musharraffs continued support to taliban.

Taliban were not created in 94... they were the mujahideen who had fought the soviets during the cold war or afghan jihad....... and in the 90s they formed movement.......and were opposed by the ex communist NA minorities...... they just didnt pop out of madrassas in 94 thanks to ISI or PA as you like to think...... taliban movement was started by Mullah Omar and not hameed gul... we only accepted them diplomatically after the world didnt pay much attention to our cries for HELP .... We had to do what was in our national interest...... and we werent the only ones who accepted them... tht included KSA,UAE and even USA.... and even now USA is in contact with them and karzai is offering Mullah Omar to run for President... :lol:
:lol:

taliban movement in 90's; are you sure????
 
Sandy, learn your facts first. Accept that even member states of the "free world" were instrumental in creating taleban (as an 'idea' and as a movement)

hell -- if i were to misconstrue the way you bhartis do, i'd say blame the soviets...had they not had expansionist designs, had they not obliterated entire Afghan villages (of course with your backing) there would never have been the need to help the nationalist resistance to help oust them and their occupation forces

for us, it wasnt just "getting back" at the soviets..... it was also a purely mathematical and logical decision on our part.
Not to forget practical and decision of common sense due to friendship with US and US interest in the region to stop spread of communism. US also sent its ACC, USS Enterprise which was deterred by SU submarine during 71 war, and it was simple decision for Pakistan to return the favor as well as stop Russians.
 
TheNews Blog » The Afghan Ball Game


Farooq Yousaf
14, Jul 2012

79’ Soviet war, Mullah Omar’s Taliban regime, the September 11 attacks, and now the 2014 pull out. –reminds of something- yes Afghanistan. Ironically though, its supposed that Pakistan has played the facilitator all through─ hosted and trained AfghanMujahideen, and also sheltered over 3.5 million Afghan refugees.



One major question that boggles many minds is why, despite the material and political sacrifice and socio-political suffering, does Pakistani role in Afghanistan continue to draw negative publicity? Why do our relations with Kabul fail to normalize?



For U.S, gaining total control over Afghanistan has been a failure in, more or less, every division; be it geo-strategic, geo-political, geo-economic, diplomatic, intelligence or the military-cum-security failures. Neutralizing the threat of militant’s ─ Taliban being the major ones ─ still remains an unsolved mystery.



The result of this failure has called for greater pressures, both from Karzai and the US, on Pakistan to act against the Haqqani faction of Taliban in Pakistan’s North Waziristan region. This failure and blame is resulting in further withering of ******* relations as the US-influenced Karzai government has to synchronize with Washington’s call in blaming Pakistan for militant activities taking place in the country, obviously to hide the failures within.

The Afghan endgame is visible within striking distance. The situation is resting upon a proper roadmap from all the stakeholders. It seems like the coalition forces want to leave with their heads high, but the greater interest of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation(SCO) bloc in the region would make it hard to carry on the proceedings as planned.

Pakistan and Afghanistan need to realise the fact that further reliance on the US would prove nothing but detrimental for both the neighbours. With all the development activities coming to a halt soon after the NATO exit, it will all be left upon Afghanistan and its neighbouring friends, most importantly Pakistan, to play their part in this process. Further, succumbing to US pressure will not only worsen the ******* relationship, it will also prevent the resolving of impeding issues haunting both sides of the border and faced by none other than the common man.



Ironic it is that recently both Islamabad and Kabul levied strict restrictions on visa procedures with the applicants only allowed a single-entry one month visa and, that too happens solely after having used influential references. These bars have jeopardised not only the legitimate business prospects but has also created problems for journalists and employment seekers on both the sides. What’s amazing is that on a daily basis, hundreds of thousands of people cross the border – many of them without visa or a passport. With such a huge number of people moving about freely, though illegally, restricting the valid cases seems to make little, or no, sense.



The policy makers in Kabul need to realize that allies and friends can change, neighbours cannot. Whatever happens, Pakistan will remain a neighbour; one that hosts more than three million of your nationals and deserves special consideration in the policies being made. Such a neighbour should not be defamed in the world media on wishes of the allies to hide explicit failures. Kabul also has to make sure that its neighbour’s territorial integrity is not violated through uncalled for attacks from its side by the NATO forces as such surgical strikes have never helped in the past and have lead to severing of ties between both the states.

For sake of discussion, lets assume taliban as an indigenous movement with zero involvement of pakistan, Lets assume Ahmed shah massods forces as pure evil hence out of the equation.

Explain how democratic government of pakistan under benazir bhutto, supporting taliban and their actions. Pakistanis are extremely symphatic to gujrat riot victims, sikh riot victims kashmir insurgency victims, all muslims in India. How do you explain your govenments, bhutto-nawaz-musharraffs continued support to taliban.

i completely and utterly fail to see the connection
 
i completely and utterly fail to see the connection

you often justify support to taliban by your government, explain why? because i sure as hell dont understand why would a democratic responsible nation do so, when this regime obliterated human rights, legaly brought back rituals of dark ages, butchered tajiks and hazaras, pillaged and looted the nation. How can any government justify it's support to such a regime. please explain
 
care to explain your capabilities? maybe you know something that musharraff didn't when he was shivering in his boots
If you consider Musharaf as a best strategic planner Then :lol: , Capabilities! Don't talk about them,Cuz we both have enough capabilities to convert each other into smoke ash.

For sake of discussion, lets assume taliban as an indigenous movement with zero involvement of pakistan, Lets assume Ahmed shah massods forces as pure evil hence out of the equation.
Ofcourse ! Taliban is an indigenous of Afghan's own culture, History don't starts from 90s or 80s, Afghan Taliban is organisation of different afghan groups lead by their local feudals, Today those who are crying against Pakistan are the part of that losers group who were the part of Mujahideen, Taliban or Freedom fighter watever you calls them, and its a habit of afghans that they never accept their blunders.
Explain how democratic government of pakistan under benazir bhutto, supporting taliban and their actions. Pakistanis are extremely symphatic to gujrat riot victims, sikh riot victims kashmir insurgency victims, all muslims in India. How do you explain your govenments, bhutto-nawaz-musharraffs continued support to taliban.

taliban movement in 90's; are you sure????
Ah ! even you don't have any such source to prove your claims.. First these same groups seeks for help towards Pakistan and then later after Soviat's exits they started to fight against each others, That same Northern allaince group is now targeting their own minority representing politicians in A-stan. Ofcourse! its their culture to blame others and hide their own sins, But It seems that even their is some internal dispute is going on among Ex-communist politicians who were the part of N. Allaince.
Afghan politician, 2 NATO troops among 25 dead - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times
Ahmad Khan Samangani, an ethnic Uzbek and anti-Soviet guerrilla leader in the 1980s who later became a member of parliament, was welcoming guests to his daughter’s wedding when the explosion occurred in Aybak, the capital of Samangan province.

Karzai needs the minority groups — loosely known as the Northern Alliance — to back his efforts to reconcile with the Taliban. But minorities already worry that Karzai, a Pashtun, will make too many concessions to their Taliban enemies to achieve a peace deal to end the war. Whatever support for peace talks that Karzai has won from minority groups is likely to erode if militants continue to pick off their leaders one by one
Their internal conditions are still worst thats why U.S is continously seeking Taliban for peace talk.
 
Not to forget practical and decision of common sense due to friendship with US and US interest in the region to stop spread of communism. US also sent its ACC, USS Enterprise which was deterred by SU submarine during 71 war, and it was simple decision for Pakistan to return the favor as well as stop Russians.
SU, Practically and diplomatically hurt us so much at then, not just us but U.S too, watever happened with them was the return of their own deeds.
 
Lets limit the discussion to Afghanistan.
The fact is Pakistan fears any stable govt in Afghanistan. It supports Taliban in the hope that such a govt will be heavily dependent on Pakistan and would hence toe its line.
At the end of the day, Afghans will always dislike such a policy.


Moral high ground? I'm not even talking of foreign policy here. Why do ordinary and educated Pakistanis support stone age beasts like Taliban?
That's the simple question. Your govt may covertly support them but people?


Ordinarry pakistani.,.. you are genralizing way too much...
 
If you consider Musharaf as a best strategic planner Then :lol: , Capabilities! Don't talk about them,Cuz we both have enough capabilities to convert each other into smoke ash.

he was your COAS, president, are you saying incompetent people can rise to coas in PA

Ofcourse ! Taliban is an indigenous of Afghan's own culture, History don't starts from 90s or 80s, Afghan Taliban is organisation of different afghan groups lead by their local feudals, Today those who are crying against Pakistan are the part of that losers group who were the part of Mujahideen, Taliban or Freedom fighter watever you calls them, and its a habit of afghans that they never accept their blunders.
how many pakistanis lost their lives in taliban mullahgiri? what were pakistani army/isi commanders and trainers doing in taliban squads?? what was popularly known as "airlift of evil"? How many times did ISI try to kill Ahmed shah masood?

At best they were made from joint pak-afghan material, but R&D, and specs funding, DSI inlets (oops) were provided by pakistan.


Ah ! even you don't have any such source to prove your claims.. First these same groups seeks for help towards Pakistan and then later after Soviat's exits they started to fight against each others, That same Northern allaince group is now targeting their own minority representing politicians in A-stan. Ofcourse! its their culture to blame others and hide their own sins, But It seems that even their is some internal dispute is going on among Ex-communist politicians who were the part of N. Allaince.
Afghan politician, 2 NATO troops among 25 dead - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times
TALIBAN – Its Origin And The Historical Background

The ISI and Terrorism: Behind the Accusations - Council on Foreign Relations

WikiLeaks and the ISI-Taliban nexus | Peter Galbraith | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

Pakistan - The Taliban-Pakistan Alliance | Return Of The Taliban | FRONTLINE | PBS

BBC News - Pakistani agents 'funding and training Afghan Taliban'

BBC Documentary Exposes ISI Training, Equipping of Taliban Militants | emptywheel

ISI arming and training us, claim

Allah did not create Taliban, I.S.I. did after C.I.A. left | NowPublic News Coverage

ISI ‘supports’ Taliban: Study


Their internal conditions are still worst thats why U.S is continously seeking Taliban for peace talk.

US seeking to talk to moderate taliban... hmmm .. if they are moderate , then they aren't Taliban I guess. I am pretty sure they aren't talking to mullah omar (i wonder where is he hiding)
 
I'm from the tribal areas –my village is surrounded by Afghanistan from 3 sides; we’ve seen, heard and observed a lot of things…I have friends, former colleagues in the insurgency theatre. so dont try to lecture me on anything on this subject and please don’t say these kind of baseless things like ''this is paranoia'' or ''this is assumption''

let me make that clear...


secondly, it would be worth analyzing Tajikistan --which ALSO broke into a bloody civil war when it got independence in 1991. Today, Tajikistan is still corrupt and authoritarian, but it is also tolerably stable — stable enough for the international community to ''forget'' about it (Uzbekistan as well, they tend to ''export'' their problems like IeU to Afghanistan and by extension, Pakistan)

the turnaround was due largely to an intelligently conceived and successfully implemented intervention by a small U.N. mission and a core of unlikely bedfellows that included Iranian and Russia. Rather than forcing free and fair elections, throwing out warlords, and flooding the country with foreign peacekeepers, the intervening parties opted for a more limited and realistic set of goals. They brokered deals across political factions, tolerated warlords where necessary, and kept the number of outside peacekeeping troops to a minimum. The result has been the emergence of a relatively stable balance of power inside the country, the dissuasion of former combatants from renewed hostilities, and the opportunity for state building to develop organically. The Tajik case suggests that in trying to rebuild a failed state, less may be more.

but is it so, in the case of Afghanistan? Well the NATOs tried a similar strategy, forgetting that 50% of the population is Pashtun and that alienating them was pushing them towards taleban –even those that had no love for them. And again, don’t give Pakistan credit for an Afghan phenomenon, Our hands aren’t clean 100% but then again neither are yours; neither are Russias or US or Saudis or the whole ‘’free world’’ for that matter. Ousting the soviets was a noble cause. They were your allies anyways so based on simple mathematics it made sense to drive them out which, thanks to God, the plan succeeded.

Only real issue of contention is post withdrawal. We asked the world community for HELP – we rallied for Afghan cause even when others had forgotten. What were we left with (apart from a lack of options)?

Taleban didn’t fall from nowhere; they were Adfghans – huge majority of them from mujahideen – and they had upper hand so therefore since they gained power we recognized them diplomatically and politically….so did the Saudis, so did UAE –hell, so did the USA (behind closed doors – remember their delegation to Houston?)

Resist your dogmatic urge to pin everything on Pakistan! Wasay tou aadat hai tumara

Your Fundamental criteria is wrong.

"they were Adfghans – huge majority of them from mujahideen – and they had upper hand so therefore since they gained power we recognized them diplomatically and politically"

Just because they were the strongest militia, we cannot take them to be the rulers/administrators/representatives of Afghanistan. So, Indian POV differs on this one.

Secondly, your observations about Tajikistan, Uzbekistan don't make a universal template. Warlords aren't Nation builders and not even facilitators, certainly not a nation state of 21 century. In the mediaeval world, strongest among them became a king or Emperor and very few of them were Administrators.
Today, we can only have them in the barracks as an army and no political space can be or should be given to them. Giving them that credit would be maintaining gangs by paying them Protection Money.

most importantly, alienation of Pashtuns is, as i said your perception or the Propaganda that Pakistan keeps doing in the case of Afghanistan. My observation is, common Pashtuns are quite happy with the way Afghanistan is going forward and only the warlords as you said are not happy since they aren't being given the Primacy you are talking about. I think they should not be given especially at the gun point.
 
Your Fundamental criteria is wrong.

"they were Adfghans – huge majority of them from mujahideen – and they had upper hand so therefore since they gained power we recognized them diplomatically and politically"

Just because they were the strongest militia, we cannot take them to be the rulers/administrators/representatives of Afghanistan

it's truly incredible how limited your comprehension is to what i am saying and have been saying....revisit my post and read slowly and properly....i will reiterate though what i said and have been saying. Afghan taleban are an Afghan phenomenon. They are Afghan nationals, a huge % of them were mujahideen; some offsprings of mujahideen. Neither are they Pakistanis nor are their loyalties to Pakistan.

So, Indian POV differs on this one.

and yet india backed the soviet invasion of afghanistan and subsequently backed an organization with as much a shoddy and abysmal human rights record as the taleban and other militias in question...

wah!!

Secondly, your observations about Tajikistan, Uzbekistan don't make a universal template.

no shyt!! revisit my post!


Warlords aren't Nation builders and not even facilitators, certainly not a nation state of 21 century. In the mediaeval world, strongest among them became a king or Emperor and very few of them were Administrators.

i agree....so maybe we should be discussing nation-building then; sound governance; nationhood before ethnicity.......list goes on.....these dont come about overnight, or even in 3-4 years...not even a decade. The country has been mired in civil wars and insurrections for much of the 20th and 21st century.

what all stakeholders need to do is help the afghans build their instituions, help them rebuild their nation and their tattered economy (100% of their formal GDP is in the form of foreign aid).....then from thereon forth there is a grounds to help drive out the warlords and decrease their influence and power; afterall, they cant exist without mass support (in this case regional support based on ethnic loyalties)

at the end of the day, its not up to you, me, or anyone else...the onus lies on the afghan society themselves, when they are ready to take charge of their country

Today, we can only have them in the barracks as an army and no political space can be or should be given to them. Giving them that credit would be maintaining gangs by paying them Protection Money.

aho and thats been going on since time immemorial....


most importantly, alienation of Pashtuns is, as i said your perception or the Propaganda that Pakistan keeps doing in the case of Afghanistan.

sadly you are grossly mistaken......but then again, im wasting my valuable time on a group of clearly mis-informed people who dont know a lick about Afghanistan save for what they read on times of india and other tabloids..

i wont even delve into their ethnically-based atrocities simply b/c so much material is out there (for those who actually have the courage to learn, rather than yap on forums)

none of these militias are saints; just b/c your side supported one faction doesnt mean your hands are clean...you have no idea what youre going on about if you truly believe that feelings of alienation among many Afghan Pashtuns is "Pakistani propaganda" or even just a mere "perception" :what:

My observation is, common Pashtuns are quite happy with the way Afghanistan is going forward and only the warlords as you said are not happy since they aren't being given the Primacy you are talking about. I think they should not be given especially at the gun point.

i think most afghans view security (rather, lack therof), unemployment and corruption as the main hindrances to socio-economic, macro/regional economic and political stability.....in that sense, we can see eye to eye on some of these issues
 
Security forces kill 6 Afghan militants in Chitral
CHITRAL: At least six militants were killed when security forces in Chitral retaliated to a militant attack on Wednesday, reported Express News.
According to initial reports, the militants were from Afghanistan and had attacked the Gambhir and Arandu security check posts in Chitral district. Six of them were killed when security forces retaliated.
Sources say the bodies of the militants are still lying in the area.
Earlier in April, the general officer commanding Swat had claimed that the army had successfully repulsed various terrorist attacks on the Pak-Afghan border areas in the Chitral district.
Security forces kill 6 Afghan militants in Chitral – The Express Tribune
 
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