Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA] Development | Updates & Discussions.

[Indos]

Fighters are way more complicated. Experience is very very important in this aspect. The only comparable East Asian country in this field is Japan (Type Zero, F-2, Shinshin, and F-3 in the future, meanwhile C-2 transporter is also a masterpiece, though all Japanese products are irrationally expensive), Korea is no player, the success of TA-50 relied more on LM rather than Korea.

As for SAC, it is dedicated to produce fighter planes for more than half a century, and they do designed J-8.
J-6, J-7, J-11, J-15, J-16 are all produced by SAC.

The "license built" only applies for J-11A, which is totally assembly-work. From J-11B on, it is we that control all the production, everything is our own except the AL-31 engine (will be replaced by WS-10 in recent years), thus upgrading and personalization is all at our own control, that's why J-16 come into birth. The only restriction is we can't sell them to foreign customers since we use AL-31 and nothing more, our avionics are even more advanced.

That's why SAC can design and carry out FC-31 so quickly --- the experience in fighter manufacture, not only some "license built" but whole flow. 60-year experience of R&D is not just paperwork, but real output.

Again, the first flight of prototype of FC-31 (No.31001) is 8 years before, mean while there is no plane seen for TFX/KFX for years, that is the gap.

And don't forget SAC and CAC is both under the control of AVIC, they are in the same incorporation controlled by the state, they all serves China rather than stakeholders, so the technology on J-20 can also be applied on SAC's product. FC-31 is not a product only of SAC, but AVIC, you must make clear of the difference.

For KFX, whether it will success or not depends on LM, not Korea and Indonesia, and I even doubt whether there will be a result for KFX project --- it will cost tens of billions of $$. Korea has purchased F-35, and its economy is declining, they may not have the money to develop KFX. What's worse, US produces are a good but greedy cooperator, our Super-7 (the original project code of JF-17) had many economic problems when cooperated with Grumman.

We need to see what will happen in the future mate.....I see that your J31 has become J35 and it needs at least another 5 years to complete its development according to your own official.

 

[LittleFish]

We need to see what will happen in the future mate.....I see that your J31 has become J35 and it needs at least another 5 years to complete its development according to your own official.

Not surprising since we all know FC-31 is not a completed version from the very beginning.
SAC developed FC-31 with its proposal beaten by J-20 proposal in PLAAF internal bidding --- not about technology, but about the usage.
FC-31 is not a heavy fighter, it uses 2 mid-thrust turbofan engine, but PLAAF did need a heavy one since our enemy is USAF/JPAF, meanwhile our mid-thrust turbofan WS-13 is not as mature as WS-10.
Therefore FC-31 didn't become J-31 since J means PLAAF has already accepted it.

As for so-called "J-35", there is no convincible information about whether it exists, let alone "5 years to complete", don't believe in foreign news about PLAAF.
The only news is that AVIC officially announced that "Try best to make NEXT-GENERATION COMBAT AIRCRAFT to take first flight in 2021", which is carried out by the AVIC lab 601, and lab 601 belongs to SAC.
We don't know what the NEXT-GENERATION COMBAT AIRCRAFT is currently, maybe it is J-35 or something else, but we can assume it is a much upgraded FC-31, maybe it will be a heavy one.

Never underestimate our developing speed, we always carry out new shit in time. What you should worry about is your IFX.
Indonesia factor may postpone KF-X project
Money talks. Especially under current situation, each country are in lacking of money, both Indonesia and Korea. Delay of KFX/IFX project is obviously expected.

 

[Chandrguptaa]

@Water Car Engineer

Do you know official estimated development cost for AMCA program ?

2 BN USD for two TDs

 

[Indos]

Never underestimate our developing speed, we always carry out new shit in time. What you should worry about is your IFX.
Indonesia factor may postpone KF-X project
Money talks. Especially under current situation, each country are in lacking of money, both Indonesia and Korea. Delay of KFX/IFX project is obviously expected.

So far KFX/IFX is progressing. AlhamduliLLAH.

KF-X project on track but concerns grow about Indonesian involvement
by Jon Grevatt

16 July 2020

Technicians from Indonesian aerospace firm PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI) will soon be rejoining counterparts from Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) to undertake work on developing the Korean Fighter eXperimental (KF-X) multirole fighter aircraft, Janes has learnt.

PTDI technicians on the KF-X project – known as KF-X/IF-X in Indonesia – returned to Indonesia from South Korea in March when the Covid-19 epidemic was at its peak in the Northeast Asian country. An industry source has confirmed to Janes that these technicians are now “currently preparing to redeploy”.

Janes understands that at the end of 2019 the total number of PTDI technicians on the KF-X project in South Korea was about 100, with their work mainly focused on aircraft design and manufacturing processes. Their redeployment will be framed against requirements for social distancing and other Covid-19-related guidelines.

The move to re-engage PTDI technicians on the project comes against a background of progress on the development of KF-X prototypes but also continuing delays in efforts to reach a compromise on the scope of Indonesian financial participation in the programme. Another factor that could have an impact on Indonesia’s involvement are some concerns in Jakarta about the strategic value of its involvement.

KAI has confirmed that assembly of the first KF-X prototype is scheduled to be finalised in the second half of 2020, with a view to rolling out the aircraft in April 2021. The schedules confirm that the KF-X programme has not been affected by Covid-19 and is on track to start mass production in the mid-2020s.

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The prototype construction as seen in April 2020

2 BN USD for two TDs

What is TDs ? Prototypes ?

 

[Chandrguptaa]

So far KFX/IFX is progressing.

KF-X project on track but concerns grow about Indonesian involvement
by Jon Grevatt


Technicians from Indonesian aerospace firm PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI) will soon be rejoining counterparts from Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) to undertake work on developing the Korean Fighter eXperimental (KF-X) multirole fighter aircraft, Janes has learnt.

PTDI technicians on the KF-X project – known as KF-X/IF-X in Indonesia – returned to Indonesia from South Korea in March when the Covid-19 epidemic was at its peak in the Northeast Asian country. An industry source has confirmed to Janes that these technicians are now “currently preparing to redeploy”.

Janes understands that at the end of 2019 the total number of PTDI technicians on the KF-X project in South Korea was about 100, with their work mainly focused on aircraft design and manufacturing processes. Their redeployment will be framed against requirements for social distancing and other Covid-19-related guidelines.

The move to re-engage PTDI technicians on the project comes against a background of progress on the development of KF-X prototypes but also continuing delays in efforts to reach a compromise on the scope of Indonesian financial participation in the programme. Another factor that could have an impact on Indonesia’s involvement are some concerns in Jakarta about the strategic value of its involvement.

KAI has confirmed that assembly of the first KF-X prototype is scheduled to be finalised in the second half of 2020, with a view to rolling out the aircraft in April 2021. The schedules confirm that the KF-X programme has not been affected by Covid-19 and is on track to start mass production in the mid-2020s.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The prototype construction as seen in April 2020

What is TDs ? Prototypes ?

Yup, Technical Demonstrator or you can say Prototype for AMCA Mk-1.
GE has already started enhancing the GE-414 to Convert it into GE-414 IN which will produce 115-125KN thrust for prototypes.
Rolls-Royce is also working on a Engine of 115-140KN thrust with DRDO under G2G deal..
GTREs is good at cold section & RR is good at Hot core & both of them expect to present the first prototype within 5yrs.

 

[Indos]

Yup, Technical Demonstrator or you can say Prototype for AMCA Mk-1.
GE has already started enhancing the GE-414 to Convert it into GE-414 IN which will produce 115-125KN thrust for prototypes.
Rolls-Royce is also working on a Engine of 115-140KN thrust with DRDO under G2G deal..
GTREs is good at cold section & RR is good at Hot core & both of them expect to present the first prototype within 5yrs.

As far as I know, AMCA program hasnt made any decision about which engine that will power the fighter.

 

[Chandrguptaa]

As far as I know, AMCA program hasnt made any decision about which engine that will power the fighter.

Then you don't have knowledge, KF-X & AMCA both will use GE F-414, only difference is KF-X will legacy F-414 & AMCA will use enhanced GE F-414.
DRDO chiefs own words.
Prototypes will be based on F414, but for Serial production will most likely use our own Engine, Currently every top engine maker ( GE,Snecma,RR, NPO Saturn & P&W) is fighting with each other bcoz they know, India will need atleast 1500 Engines.
Most like India will produce two engines on their own, one with Snecma-GTRE & 2nd with RR-GTRE.
http://www.sps-aviation.com/experts-speak/?id=472&h=Indias-Fifth-Generation-AMCA

Thank you for a very sensible and sane reply.

Now, Project AZM is part of an even bigger project known as Aviation City, where PAF aims to expand PAC into a full fledged organization to develop everything locally.

Since most your post is concerning with “Designing”, PAF knows what they are doing, not ordinary people like me, Although I believe that in time, Aviation city will be able to do most such you said, But not anytime soon I believe.

Flight computer, FBW-FBO design and testing, As far As I know from open source is that we are already having a product catalogue in that category. As for the iron rigs, Since PAC has intentions to develop commercial airliners itself, so required facilities will be made.

In terms of immediate requirements, We might take some facility help from China, since our availability at CAC is mostly always I believe, so who knows AZM might actually be happening there. In the latest MoD report, we learnt that initial designs were run through various algorithms, Now they are going for further testing and this was in 2017 I believe, So this indicates we might actually be as immediate requirement, Using foreign facilities.

I have to admit, as much as we troll Tejas, That program has been a victim of really bad political game, 3 different parties (Government, IAF, MoD), all supporting different options, So tejas got delayed, But the most important factor was that HAL kept on focusing on infrastructure DURING the development of Tejas which delayed the jet even further.

We played differently, As we were in immediate need of homegrown fighter, Got into a JV with China, End result is what we wanted as per our requirements.

So we got 2 achievements, one is fulfilling our requirements and secondly getting some know how on Fighter development and designing.


As for the RAM coating facilities and knowledge, I don’t think most aviation companies are well versed with that, except for those who actually attempted a fifth gen fighter, So PAC, HAL/ADA or any other company in the world would be new to that.

Companies don't analyse & Develope stealth coating, engineering institutes do.
For DRDO both IIT-D & M have developed their own RAM coating.

 

[LittleFish]

So far KFX/IFX is progressing. AlhamduliLLAH.

KF-X project on track but concerns grow about Indonesian involvement
by Jon Grevatt

16 July 2020

Technicians from Indonesian aerospace firm PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI) will soon be rejoining counterparts from Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) to undertake work on developing the Korean Fighter eXperimental (KF-X) multirole fighter aircraft, Janes has learnt.

PTDI technicians on the KF-X project – known as KF-X/IF-X in Indonesia – returned to Indonesia from South Korea in March when the Covid-19 epidemic was at its peak in the Northeast Asian country. An industry source has confirmed to Janes that these technicians are now “currently preparing to redeploy”.

Janes understands that at the end of 2019 the total number of PTDI technicians on the KF-X project in South Korea was about 100, with their work mainly focused on aircraft design and manufacturing processes. Their redeployment will be framed against requirements for social distancing and other Covid-19-related guidelines.

The move to re-engage PTDI technicians on the project comes against a background of progress on the development of KF-X prototypes but also continuing delays in efforts to reach a compromise on the scope of Indonesian financial participation in the programme. Another factor that could have an impact on Indonesia’s involvement are some concerns in Jakarta about the strategic value of its involvement.

KAI has confirmed that assembly of the first KF-X prototype is scheduled to be finalised in the second half of 2020, with a view to rolling out the aircraft in April 2021. The schedules confirm that the KF-X programme has not been affected by Covid-19 and is on track to start mass production in the mid-2020s.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The prototype construction as seen in April 2020

What is TDs ? Prototypes ?

Thanks for your picture, so seems the schedule can be met by Koreans. I expect to see the first prototype of both so called "J-35" and KFX/IFX in 2021, what a nice year it will be.

 

[MirageBlue]

As far as I know, AMCA program hasnt made any decision about which engine that will power the fighter.

Well, you're wrong about it partially.

The F-414-INS6 will power the prototypes of the AMCA and possibly even the first few production batches. However, the ADA and IAF want a higher thrust (~110 kN in afterburner) engine to power the AMCA to meet super-cruise requirements in dry thrust primarily. There is talk that Rolls Royce and DRDO will be forming a JV to design and develop a new fighter engine in this class.

 

[INDIAPOSITIVE]

 

[polanski]

This is why India dumped Su-57 and have their own AMCA.

Russia’s Su-57 is a gloried fourth-gen fighter, far from a stealth fighters: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/10/13/russias-su-57-far-from-a-stealth-fighters/

 

[HostileInsurgent]

So far KFX/IFX is progressing. AlhamduliLLAH.

KF-X project on track but concerns grow about Indonesian involvement
by Jon Grevatt

16 July 2020

Technicians from Indonesian aerospace firm PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI) will soon be rejoining counterparts from Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) to undertake work on developing the Korean Fighter eXperimental (KF-X) multirole fighter aircraft, Janes has learnt.

PTDI technicians on the KF-X project – known as KF-X/IF-X in Indonesia – returned to Indonesia from South Korea in March when the Covid-19 epidemic was at its peak in the Northeast Asian country. An industry source has confirmed to Janes that these technicians are now “currently preparing to redeploy”.

Janes understands that at the end of 2019 the total number of PTDI technicians on the KF-X project in South Korea was about 100, with their work mainly focused on aircraft design and manufacturing processes. Their redeployment will be framed against requirements for social distancing and other Covid-19-related guidelines.

The move to re-engage PTDI technicians on the project comes against a background of progress on the development of KF-X prototypes but also continuing delays in efforts to reach a compromise on the scope of Indonesian financial participation in the programme. Another factor that could have an impact on Indonesia’s involvement are some concerns in Jakarta about the strategic value of its involvement.

KAI has confirmed that assembly of the first KF-X prototype is scheduled to be finalised in the second half of 2020, with a view to rolling out the aircraft in April 2021. The schedules confirm that the KF-X programme has not been affected by Covid-19 and is on track to start mass production in the mid-2020s.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The prototype construction as seen in April 2020

What is TDs ? Prototypes ?

Technology Demonstrators yes you can call them Prototypes.

This is why India dumped Su-57 and have their own AMCA.

Russia’s Su-57 is a gloried fourth-gen fighter, far from a stealth fighters: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/10/13/russias-su-57-far-from-a-stealth-fighters/

The reason we left FGFA was that Russia made many mistakes in making it, they were making some kind of a stealth aircraft with a flanker’s design. They didn’t make a serpentine intake which increased SU-57’s RCS, their engines were under powered being a powerful engine coz the aircraft itself was a bulky one.

and they weren’t developing many sensors required for FGFA.
many reasons, maybe they have overcome most of these but still can’t make a serpentine intake now.

 

[Ghost Hobbit]

We need to see what will happen in the future mate.....I see that your J31 has become J35 and it needs at least another 5 years to complete its development according to your own official.

But there is a difference in this project. Unlike the LCA, state entities don't control this project. The lead is now designated as Larsen & Tubro. Indian private firms are generally very efficient.

Thanks for your picture, so seems the schedule can be met by Koreans. I expect to see the first prototype of both so called "J-35" and KFX/IFX in 2021, what a nice year it will be.

Very few of the non-chinese jets will have questions on final RCS performance. While the opinion on J-20 universally is 'we'd like the Chinese to believe their J20 is invisible to our radar'

Thank you for a very sensible and sane reply.

Now, Project AZM is part of an even bigger project known as Aviation City, where PAF aims to expand PAC into a full fledged organization to develop everything locally.

Since most your post is concerning with “Designing”, PAF knows what they are doing, not ordinary people like me, Although I believe that in time, Aviation city will be able to do most such you said, But not anytime soon I believe.

Flight computer, FBW-FBO design and testing, As far As I know from open source is that we are already having a product catalogue in that category. As for the iron rigs, Since PAC has intentions to develop commercial airliners itself, so required facilities will be made.

In terms of immediate requirements, We might take some facility help from China, since our availability at CAC is mostly always I believe, so who knows AZM might actually be happening there. In the latest MoD report, we learnt that initial designs were run through various algorithms, Now they are going for further testing and this was in 2017 I believe, So this indicates we might actually be as immediate requirement, Using foreign facilities.

I have to admit, as much as we troll Tejas, That program has been a victim of really bad political game, 3 different parties (Government, IAF, MoD), all supporting different options, So tejas got delayed, But the most important factor was that HAL kept on focusing on infrastructure DURING the development of Tejas which delayed the jet even further.

We played differently, As we were in immediate need of homegrown fighter, Got into a JV with China, End result is what we wanted as per our requirements.

So we got 2 achievements, one is fulfilling our requirements and secondly getting some know how on Fighter development and designing.


As for the RAM coating facilities and knowledge, I don’t think most aviation companies are well versed with that, except for those who actually attempted a fifth gen fighter, So PAC, HAL/ADA or any other company in the world would be new to that.

Don't have any expectations on Project Azm. It will not succeed. The biggest factor for Aviation project is money. You don't have it. We tried to build the LCA with a royal 3 Billion budget for plane+ infra+ engine. It went through a very painful process that extended the project life a lot. I don't think you'll be able to cough up even that- and a good stealth jet will cost about 8 to 10 Billion in R&D.

RAM Coatings had been developed by DRDO in mid 1990s itself. At that time they were able to absorb 85% of all radar waves . Right now they can absorb 98 to 99% of all Radar waves I believe. porbably more. This tech is fully mature in India.

 

[MirageBlue]

The latest iteration (and possibly the final iteration) of the AMCA, as shown by DRDO Chief, Dr Satish Reddy in a webinar..

ADA Director Dr Girish Deodhare gave the following AMCA updates:

Cross-posting from another forum where someone posted this from his interview

- All PDRs are completed, including the aircraft level PDR which happened in Dec 2020.
- So the complete AMCA design is frozen.
- Detailed design activities have begun, including realization of various LRUs.
- Lot of commonality of LRUs with Tejas Mk2 and that helps since they have to only upgrade the LRUs for the AMCA's additional surfaces (AMCA has an all moving tail which LCA doesn't).
- Actuator design has started and is progressing very well
- The IAF has frozen all it's PSQRs (Requirements) after discussion with ADA for over a year and that program has moved very well and ADA and HAL are on track for getting AMCA's first prototype ready for rollout by 2024.
- It has a different kind of a wing and that wing design is also progressing well. It's being done at HAL.
- NAL does the wind tunnel testing. In addition all the structural design activities are done at NAL. They assist ADA in many of the activities including aerodynamics.
- AMCA is a national program and many laboratories including NAL are working on stealth technologies and they've progressed very well.
- Have a very good idea into what is the type of stealth or materials that will be incorporated into AMCA.
- AMCA full scale model is being built, for measuring the stealth characteristics, by a Hyderabad based company. (these stealth measurements will be measured at DRDO's new ORANGE Open Range testing facility)
- That AMCA full-scale model is in a very advanced stage of construction and should come very shortly.
- Also DSI intakes are confirmed and will be incorporated in AMCA.
- DSI technology will feature on all future programs as it helps in stealth and also has other benefits. DSI was one technology to be mastered. Now that's done.
- So Tejas Mk2 will have canards, AMCA will have DSI and probably the TEDBF will have both.

 

[siegecrossbow]

The latest iteration (and possibly the final iteration) of the AMCA, as shown by DRDO Chief, Dr Satish Reddy in a webinar..

ADA Director Dr Girish Deodhare gave the following AMCA updates:

Cross-posting from another forum where someone posted this from his interview

- All PDRs are completed, including the aircraft level PDR which happened in Dec 2020.
- So the complete AMCA design is frozen.
- Detailed design activities have begun, including realization of various LRUs.
- Lot of commonality of LRUs with Tejas Mk2 and that helps since they have to only upgrade the LRUs for the AMCA's additional surfaces (AMCA has an all moving tail which LCA doesn't).
- Actuator design has started and is progressing very well
- The IAF has frozen all it's PSQRs (Requirements) after discussion with ADA for over a year and that program has moved very well and ADA and HAL are on track for getting AMCA's first prototype ready for rollout by 2024.
- It has a different kind of a wing and that wing design is also progressing well. It's being done at HAL.
- NAL does the wind tunnel testing. In addition all the structural design activities are done at NAL. They assist ADA in many of the activities including aerodynamics.
- AMCA is a national program and many laboratories including NAL are working on stealth technologies and they've progressed very well.
- Have a very good idea into what is the type of stealth or materials that will be incorporated into AMCA.
- AMCA full scale model is being built, for measuring the stealth characteristics, by a Hyderabad based company. (these stealth measurements will be measured at DRDO's new ORANGE Open Range testing facility)
- That AMCA full-scale model is in a very advanced stage of construction and should come very shortly.
- Also DSI intakes are confirmed and will be incorporated in AMCA.
- DSI technology will feature on all future programs as it helps in stealth and also has other benefits. DSI was one technology to be mastered. Now that's done.
- So Tejas Mk2 will have canards, AMCA will have DSI and probably the TEDBF will have both.

Never thought that this day would arrive but...

I kid, I kid.