Adolf Hitler and the side of History never before seen.

[Joe Shearer]

The point of all this is that no external reserves were brought in, not from Mongolia, not from Siberia. While notorious_eagle has taken the wind out of my sails by summarising my second part into one Laconic sentence, it was clearly not time, not in October 1941, to remove troops from the eastern front. Which way the Japanese would jump was still not known. Zhukov had been ordered to halt the German advance on Moscow. His problem was that he had few forces with which to do so. To repeat, not only had the Soviets lost heavily at Minsk and Kiev, losing 43 divisions and 750,000 men, but they had also lost at Vyazhma and Briansk, losing another 500,000 men. A loss of 1,250,000 is not a minor setback. These recent losses outside Moscow were of 64 Rifle Divisions, 11 tank brigades and 50 artillery regiments. Zhukov was left with 900,000 men to defend Moscow.

Soviet spy Ricahrd Sorge informed Stalin that Japan wont attack Soviet Union from east

The dates do not permit this to have been a factor.

 

[IND151]

Hitler's biggest issue was with the Communists and particularly the Soviet Union. I think we can all agree on that.

So why did he invade France, Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Greece, Yugoslavia, Denmark and Norway?

If he was really serious about taking on the Soviet Union, then why did he invade half of Europe first?

Well, at least one source suggests that Hitler wanted to colonize east Europe and exploit it just how Britain exploited Afrcian and Asian states. For this, it was necessary to destroy the Red Threat aka Soviet Union.

 

[doppelganger]

To the learned war veterans here one small side question, while the discussion goes on. Numbers of casualties are staggering in the hundreds of thousands, over a million. For one country alone. Am sure the other main participants would even have lost similar numbers. So my question is, what use our big population, as well as that of China, if we only have armies 1-2 million strong. With populations of 1.2-1.5 billion, should we not at least have 5-10 million strong standing armies? The US with a population of just 300 million, has an army as big as us in numbers, forget firepower. At least we should better leverage what we have a lot of.

 

[IND151]

The point of all this is that no external reserves were brought in, not from Mongolia, not from Siberia. While notorious_eagle has taken the wind out of my sails by summarising my second part into one Laconic sentence, it was clearly not time, not in October 1941, to remove troops from the eastern front. Which way the Japanese would jump was still not known. Zhukov had been ordered to halt the German advance on Moscow. His problem was that he had few forces with which to do so. To repeat, not only had the Soviets lost heavily at Minsk and Kiev, losing 43 divisions and 750,000 men, but they had also lost at Vyazhma and Briansk, losing another 500,000 men. A loss of 1,250,000 is not a minor setback. These recent losses outside Moscow were of 64 Rifle Divisions, 11 tank brigades and 50 artillery regiments. Zhukov was left with 900,000 men to defend Moscow.



The dates do not permit this to have been a factor.

please elaborate Sir.

Are you suggesting that due to huge distance between Siberia and Moscow it was not possible for reserves to reach Moscow on time? and Stalin long before September 1941, decided to move reserves from Siberia to Moscow, foreseeing an attempt to take Moscow?

 

[Joe Shearer]

We are not concerned here with the details of a heroic, unflinching defence, but with addressing a question about reserves and the role of the Japanese inactivity in strengthening the Soviet defences. The trained and winter-inured Siberian troops were simply not available. what was available was recruits and conscripts under training, not trained, battle-hardened veteran soldiers who could fight the Germans and the cold alike.

By the end of October, less than a month from Sorge's alleged positive news about Japanese intentions, and nearly five weeks before Pearl Harbour, the unflinching defence and constant counter-attacks had caused the German offensive to run out of steam. Even thought they had pushed back the Soviets to a line from Klin, north-west of Moscow, to Istra to Serpukhov, south-west of the city, they were unable to push the Soviets back further. In addition, the mud of Autumn was slowing down the offensive. The Germans paused to re-group; the Soviets promptly reinforced their formations as well. It was then, end October 1941, that Zhukov introduced 100,000 additional troops, 300 more tanks and 2,000 pieces of artillery.

 

[IND151]

Doubtful on that, Japan was beaten by the Soviet Union at Khalkhin Gol and Lake Khasan, in the far east Stalin kept at 70-75 divisions much more then Japan had in their entire army.

thanks for info

 

[IND151]

We are not concerned here with the details of a heroic, unflinching defence, but with addressing a question about reserves and the role of the Japanese inactivity in strengthening the Soviet defences. The trained and winter-inured Siberian troops were simply not available. what was available was recruits and conscripts under training, not trained, battle-hardened veteran soldiers who could fight the Germans and the cold alike.

By the end of October, less than a month from Sorge's alleged positive news about Japanese intentions, and nearly five weeks before Pearl Harbour, the unflinching defence and constant counter-attacks had caused the German offensive to run out of steam. Even thought they had pushed back the Soviets to a line from Klin, north-west of Moscow, to Istra to Serpukhov, south-west of the city, they were unable to push the Soviets back further. In addition, the mud of Autumn was slowing down the offensive. The Germans paused to re-group; the Soviets promptly reinforced their formations as well. It was then, end October 1941, that Zhukov introduced 100,000 additional troops, 300 more tanks and 2,000 pieces of artillery.

thanks for the info Sir

So the transfer of reserves didn't happened or they came too late, hence they played no role, right?

 

[junaid1]

You do realize that Hitler would have made you work as a slave labour and treated you worse than an animal. He was a racist fu**; anyone not Aryan, blond hair, blue eyes was liable to be slaughtered according to him.

It would have been honour to work under slavery of "Adolf Hiter" then being Amercian servents.

 

[Joe Shearer]

please elaborate Sir.

Are you suggesting that due to huge distance between Siberia and Moscow it was not possible for reserves to reach Moscow on time? and Stalin long before September 1941, decided to move reserves from Siberia to Moscow, foreseeing an attempt to take Moscow?

Actually, I believe that there was minimal transfer between the eastern front and the western front. Consider: the battle for Moscow started in October. There were no reserves, Zhukov went to battle with 900,000 men, and could only reinforce his troops when the Germans paused, when he added 100,000 more soldiers. Also 300 tanks and 2,000 artillery.

Stalin could not take chances.

The Japanese, shown up as incompetent at Khalkin Gol, were still in place. After being attacked by his treaty bound ally, he surely could not afford to gamble on a neighbour with whom he had already locked horns.

thanks for the info Sir

So the transfer of reserves didn't happened or they came too late, hence they played no role, right?

That is what I believe.

 

[notorious_eagle]

@IND151
To be precise, the Soviets had 45 Division in Siberia that never left for the West.

@Joe Shearer

Sir

Please do share your thoughts after your done reading 'Stalin's General: the Life of Georgy Zhukov'. He and Mikhail Tukhachevskii are the fathers of the Famed Modern Russian Warfare. Their theory of 'Deep Operations' largely initiated the collapse of Nazi Germany. Operation Uranus was a stroke of master piece by Zhukov, he trapped FM Freidrich Paulus 6th Army, and proceeded to lay waste to Army Group B. The Soviets lost entire armies in the beginning, but they were able to absorb those losses much quicker before the Germans could send additional Divisions. There lies the inherent strength of the Soviet War Machinery, a trait the Germans did not have.

 

[anonymus]

Well Nazi's did well to eliminate evil jew's .it would have been much better if jews were not sent to arab by Hermen .He should have ordered to eliminate all jews from the begning."Final solution " was the only solution for dirty jews .

Tribute to Adolf Hiter and his team

Here dear,You have answered the question that was put up by @FaujHistorian

 

[Joe Shearer]

Meanwhile, a reserve of ten Armies was being built up for a counter-offensive. This counter-offensive was intended to destroy German forces to north and south of Moscow, to pin down the central forces. Some 388,000 Soviet troops, supported by 5,600 guns and mortars, and 550 tanks were launched against 240,000 German troops of the Army Group Centre, with 5,350 artillery pieces and 600 tanks. Initial progress was slow due to the propensity of Soviet commanders to attack the German rearguards, instead of pinning them down and bypassing them. By December 12, some 30,000 casualties had been inflicted on the Germans. By the end of October, the Red Army had advanced by 100 to 150 miles on a broad front.

Effectively, the battle of Moscow had been won.

@IND151
To be precise, the Soviets had 45 Division in Siberia that never left for the West.

@Joe Shearer

Sir

Please do share your thoughts after your done reading 'Stalin's General: the Life of Georgy Zhukov'. He and Mikhail Tukhachevskii are the fathers of the Famed Modern Russian Warfare. Their theory of 'Deep Operations' largely initiated the collapse of Nazi Germany. Operation Uranus was a stroke of master piece by Zhukov, he trapped FM Freidrich Paulus 6th Army, and proceeded to lay waste to Army Group B. The Soviets lost entire armies in the beginning, but they were able to absorb those losses much quicker before the Germans could send additional Divisions. There lies the inherent strength of the Soviet War Machinery, a trait the Germans did not have.

I could hardly add to this. I envy you your economy of words, this ability to convey the most with the least words.

 

[anonymus]

Actually, I believe that there was minimal transfer between the eastern front and the western front. Consider: the battle for Moscow started in October. There were no reserves, Zhukov went to battle with 900,000 men, and could only reinforce his troops when the Germans paused, when he added 100,000 more soldiers. Also 300 tanks and 2,000 artillery.

Stalin could not take chances.

The Japanese, shown up as incompetent at Khalkin Gol, were still in place. After being attacked by his treaty bound ally, he surely could not afford to gamble on a neighbour with whom he had already locked horns.



That is what I believe.

I read somewhere that Stalin knew about intention of Japanese as he had a mole in Japan.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I read somewhere that Stalin knew about intention of Japanese as he had a mole in Japan.

Please see IND151's note above, on Richard Sorge.

 

[IND151]

@IND151
To be precise, the Soviets had 45 Division in Siberia that never left for the West.

thanks for info
@Joe Shearer

Sir

Please do share your thoughts after your done reading 'Stalin's General: the Life of Georgy Zhukov'. He and Mikhail Tukhachevskii are the fathers of the Famed Modern Russian Warfare. Their theory of 'Deep Operations' largely initiated the collapse of Nazi Germany. Operation Uranus was a stroke of master piece by Zhukov, he trapped FM Freidrich Paulus 6th Army, and proceeded to lay waste to Army Group B. The Soviets lost entire armies in the beginning, but they were able to absorb those losses much quicker before the Germans could send additional Divisions. There lies the inherent strength of the Soviet War Machinery, a trait the Germans did not have.

Indeed it was. Another masterstroke of Soviets was Battle of Kursk which resulted in Soviets gaining the initiative.

There are other factors too. The hasty, Stalin led, industrialization of Soviet Union ultimately, by late 1930's turned Soviet Union into Second largest Economy, surpassing German Economy and second only to US Economy.

The Soviets had bigger economy, far more manpower and military industrial complexes which outproduced their German counterparts and kept producing huge amounts of vehicles,tanks and fighter planes.

For example Soviets produced 35,000 plus T-34 tanks from June 1941 to may 1945.

From my POV, it was a victory of superior,huge production capacity and economy over a relatively smaller(though still 3rd largest in world) German economy, having much less production capacity, not just victory of Stavka and Stalin.

I rest my case.