Adolf Hitler and the side of History never before seen.

[Aslan]

Possible. Though I have not come across a clear reference to this. But then again WW-2 is a huge subject and I may be ignorant about some very specialized situations.

Thank you



You are now talking like illiterate relatives of mine from Bihar. They are poor, and destitute, so have hard time seeing the reality (any reality let alone WW-2).

What up with you bro?

peace

I am sure you Sir can do alot better then calling me an illiterate, in every other post. OR may be I am just talking to a wrong person, well sometimes we all make mistakes.

Have a nice one, peace indeed.

 

[doppelganger]

This is sentimentality.

On the subject of Bose's record within India, as a member of the freedom struggle, I have no cavils, except that even then, he displayed an unsettling predisposition to strike heroic postures, leading uniformed Congress volunteers on horseback and things like that. In fact, his opposition to Gandhi was instrumental in showing that the other Congress leaders were wholly subservient to Gandhi.

He crossed the line when he escaped to Germany and met Hitler and asked for military help. He crossed the line again when he accepted the shift to Japan, and built the Azad Hind Fauj under the Japanese, and implicitly associated himself and the Fauj with the war-crimes of the Japanese, including th crimes against Indian POWs.

For me, personally, that was totally unacceptable behaviour.

Considering, however, that this disaffection played on British nerves and was one factor persuading them to move out early, one has to acknowledge his role in achieving independence for India, he must be given respect for his actions.

Respect is not admiration.

But there was no line to be crossed. We owed nothing to anyone, least of all the British, whose war machine would have ground to a halt much earlier had it not been for lubrication in the form of Indian treasure and blood. Bose and others like him had the right idea about the way to fight oppression. What we got with Gandhi and his types was the charity of an exhausted and war weary ex superpower that had seen the writing on the wall in a post war world that needed to be rebuilt.

 

[Aslan]

@Joe Shearer

I had asked a question earlier not specifically to you, but I think it did go unnoticed.

So lets say what if the Americans were willing to put their involvement on hold till they were poked, and forced to get involved. What if the Japanese had not hit the Americans, and rather had hit the Russians on the Mongolian front, and had bogged down the Russians there, what would have been the outcome of the Moscow siege. Would the Germans have been able to run over it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I am no expert either in military affairs, and or history as well. A selective reader, and mostly do that when I am in a mood. I just want to put a hypothetical scenario in front of the experts here, I am sure it might have been discussed earlier. So during the siege of Moscow, the Russians were able to move their more seasoned soldiers from Siberia and Mongolia, soldiers who were better prepared mentally to fight in the harsh winter, as they lived their lives in snow allies of Mongolia and Siberia. So now here is my question. The what if's:

So lets say what if the Americans were willing to put their involvement on hold till they were poked, and forced to get involved. What if the Japanese had not hit the Americans, and rather had hit the Russians on the Mongolian front, and had bogged down the Russians there, what would have been the outcome of the Moscow siege. Would the Germans have been able to run over it.

I drafted a reply to this, but lost it to most inexplicable behaviour by my iPad.

You raised interesting questions.

Would the Germans have won if Japan had not attacked the US and neglected attacking the Soviets?

Would the Germans have won if the Soviets did not have Mongolian and Siberian reserves?

Would the Germans have won if the Soviets had no reserves?

The answer to each question is 'No', in my opinion. I shall try to show why after a short interval.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Here - you can see this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Chinese_Wehrmacht_soldiers.jpg

Any idea about the strength of these soldiers? How many equivalents of regiments, brigades or divisions?


It will be kind of strange to see that Chinese could not defend their own homeland from Japanese occupations/atrocities and yet they would go fight for the Germans in any large numbers.


So we have to keep in mind the proper context when we talk about military participation.

peace

 

[FaujHistorian]

@Joe Shearer

I had asked a question earlier not specifically to you, but I think it did go unnoticed.

So lets say what if the Americans were willing to put their involvement on hold till they were poked, and forced to get involved. What if the Japanese had not hit the Americans, and rather had hit the Russians on the Mongolian front, and had bogged down the Russians there, what would have been the outcome of the Moscow siege. Would the Germans have been able to run over it.

We can play what-if games all night. Just need to have lots of tea for this kind of gup shup.


Coming back to WW-2.

Japanese could not have attacked anyone.

They were being blockaded by the American Navy. Japanese were dependent on imports of oil and metals and other raw stuff to keep their military campaign going.

So Americans were not sitting pretty. They were on war footing long before Pearl Harbor attack.

American war industry was supplying 1000s upon 1000s of units to UK, Russia, and anyone who needed that ind of support.

While at the same time they were denying Japanese to import even a drop of oil

Japan was under heavy sanctions. Even more than what Iran is today.


This is why Japanese decided to bring war to their enemies navy.


I know you are are trying to learn. But unfortunately you have formed uneducated opinions already.

And that's not a good sign.


peace

 

[Aslan]

We can play what-if games all night. Just need to have lots of tea for this kind of gup shup.


Coming back to WW-2.

Japanese could not have attacked anyone.

They were being blockaded by the American Navy. Japanese were dependent on imports of oil and metals and other raw stuff to keep their military campaign going.

So Americans were not sitting pretty. They were on war footing long before Pearl Harbor attack.

American war industry was supplying 1000s upon 1000s of units to UK, Russia, and anyone who needed that ind of support.

While at the same time they were denying Japanese to import even a drop of oil

Japan was under heavy sanctions. Even more than what Iran is today.


This is why Japanese decided to bring war to their enemies navy.


I know you are are trying to learn. But unfortunately you have formed uneducated opinions already.

And that's not a good sign.


peace

There you go again with your calling me an illiterate routine. Seriously at your level you can do alot better, now as you have already made a hasty remark, and showed how narrow minded you are. Go back and read what I asked. I asked what if, and then asked a question. Didnt give you a conclusion of my own as you did to make me look like a fool like you did to your self. You were asked a couple of questions by me and in return to it all you just called me an illiterate. Well that is how a fool behaves, to him everyone else is stupid but himself.

Peace.

 

[somebozo]

Hero of Germans my foot!


Did you care to check with current day Germans first?

I bet you didn't

Hitler is only a hero for the Neo-Nazis. FYI.

As a Pakistani I caution you about the effects of Neo-Nazis.

Yes.

Living with Neo-Nazis will screw your head, so please avoid them as much as you can.

thank you

Neo-Nazi's and Talibozo are same thing - extremist.
Pakistani's should be cautious because while Talibozo's have an agenda to kill people of different religion and sect the Nazis have a racial agenda which is far more dangerous and may lead to ethnic class and disintegration of Pakistan.

 

[Screambowl]

Hitler should be regarded as the Gretest leaders of Germany including Rodolf Hass ,Hermen Goering , Himler .istead all of them were murdered through western courts .

he was good politician and good orator and planner no doubt but as you say humans make mistakes.

 

[FaujHistorian]

There you go again with your calling me an illiterate routine. Seriously at your level you can do alot better, now as you have already made a hasty remark, and showed how narrow minded you are. Go back and read what I asked. I asked what if, and then asked a question. Didnt give you a conclusion of my own as you did to make me look like a fool like you did to your self. You were asked a couple of questions by me and in return to it all you just called me an illiterate. Well that is how a fool behaves, to him everyone else is stupid but himself.

Peace.

Leave the childish chit chat please.

do you now realize that Japanese could not have attacked Russia in any substantial way.

do you?

Driving large army (say 50 divisions) through China, into Russia is logistical nightmare to say the least.

Even if Japanese had enough trucks to carry their soldiers, and tanks and guns, they were lacking OIL to run the trucks. And the air cover that was needed during the engagement with Russians. Back then airplanes had limited range.


Both Germany and Japan went to war, because their civilian leadership (Like Mullahd Hullah Ayatullahs of today) had no fing idea as to how resourceful Americans are in every which way including technology, metals, oils, and above all a huge number of fighting men. Above all Americans had the resolve to face the enemy at multiple fronts. As usual they made some foolish steps early in the war, but once the American machine got warmed up, there was no way Japanese and Germans had even a minimal chance.


Germans and Japanese were doomed to fail from day 1 based on key factors.

Those who come over here to praise hitler are simply nincompoops who know nothing about war history.

peace

he was good politician and good orator and planner no doubt but as you say humans make mistakes.

yeap. He was Modi of his time.

 

[Aslan]

Leave the childish chit chat please.

do you now realize that Japanese could not have attacked Russia in any substantial way.

do you?

Driving large army (say 50 divisions) through China, into Russia is logistical nightmare to say the least.

Even if Japanese had enough trucks to carry their soldiers, and tanks and guns, they were lacking OIL to run the trucks. And the air cover that was needed during the engagement with Russians. Back then airplanes had limited range.


Both Germany and Japan went to war, because their civilian leadership (Like Mullahd Hullah Ayatullahs of today) had no fing idea as to how resourceful Americans are in every which way including technology, metals, oils, and above all a huge number of fighting men. Above all Americans had the resolve to face the enemy at multiple fronts. As usual they made some foolish steps early in the war, but once the American machine got warmed up, there was no way Japanese and Germans had even a minimal chance.


Germans and Japanese were doomed to fail from day 1 based on key factors.

Those who come over here to praise hitler are simply nincompoops who know nothing about war history.

peace



yeap. He was Modi of his time.

The Japanese not too long ago did almost kick the Russians where it really hurt, which caused the Russian Czar his throne and life. My question was what if the Japanese had opened up another front with the Russians, and not given the Americans a reason to fight. In just a hypothetical scenario, what if that had happened. Then what. A scenario where they didnt have to run circles in Russia, but had occupied the Russian army, and had made them fight at 2 fronts.

And you are basing your assumptions on the facts that happened, what influences the major outcome of any war. I might be wrong, but the one who commits the least of blunders takes the trophy home, and Hitler committed one to many. You have all the right to be mad at people who praise Hitler for what ever reason, but that dont give you the liberty to assume that I am one of them. Just making it clear.

Otherwise your posts are always fun to read.

Have a nice one.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Would the Germans have captured Moscow if the Soviet Union was not able to bring in reserves from Mongolia and Siberia?

Would these reserves have been available if Japan had not attacked the USA and thus made herself unable to put pressure on the Soviets in Mongolia and Siberia?

Another question, not asked but nevertheless pertinent, is, would the Soviets have won the battle of Moscow without reserves? Whether Siberian and Mongolian or any other?

The answers to these questions lie in the military accounts of the times. I propose to reply in two parts, in the first part narrating the events of the battle of Moscow, and demonstrating that the defending general, Marshal Zhukov, largely fought with what was left after the debacles of Kiev in the south west and Briansk and Vyazhma in the centre. Between these two, the Soviets had lost around 1,250,000 soldiers, and were reduced to 900,000 to defend Moscow. They did so successfully, fighting the German Army Group Centre to a standstill before the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour, and then, in the following month, long before formations could have been withdrawn from the east, they counter-attacked and drove the Germans back around 100 to 150 miles on a broad front. Clearly the inaction or the neutralisation of the Japanese could have played little or no part in the successful defence of Moscow, and the supposed Siberian and Mongolian reserves were not a factor.

In the second part, I hope to explain why the Japanese were not going to attack the Soviets, and why the Southern strategy had won over the Northern strategy in their planning by the time the Soviets and the Germans went to war.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The German attack on Moscow, Operation Typhoon, started in October 1941. By that time, German forces were deep inside Russia. Leningrad was under siege, although it was never captured. In the south-west, Kiev had fallen with great losses of men and materiel. Forty three divisions - about 750,000 casualties, including around 600,000 killed, captured or missing during the battle of Kiev alone - were lost. The Germans moved on to attack the Crimea and marched towards Baku. In the centre, Zhukov had managed to stall the German attack on Moscow by relentless counter-attacks at every opportunity, bringing the enemy to a standstill at Yelnya.

He was then sent off on a very dangerous mission to save Leningrad, which seemed to be in imminent danger of collapse, and was recalled after two weeks, when the situation at Leningrad had stabilised, after two weeks of intense fighting and a dour, unflinching defence, to guard against the renewed threat to Moscow of Operation Typhoon.

In early October, the German Army mounted Operation Typhoon. They massed 70 divisions, one million men, with 1,700 tanks, 14,000 artillery pieces and almost 1,000 planes. If Hitler had captured Moscow, it is possible that the Red Army might not have recovered from the defeat. The opening of the offensive saw massive Russian losses, about half a million men, from encirclements at Vyazma and Briansk. At this stage, Stalin recalled Zhukov from Leningrad and re-organised the command structure around him. On October 6, Zhukov was asked to oversee the Reserve Front, under Budenny; two days later, he was formally appointed commander and Budenny was transferred out, and then, the Western Front under Konev was merged with the Reserve Front, re-named the Western Front, and put under Zhukov; Konev reported to him for a couple of days more, but was then sent to form the Kalinin front tasked to defend the northern flank of the Western Front.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Let me chip in a bit

Any Japanese attack on the Soviets would have knocked them out right than and there. Zhukov soundly defeated the IJA at Khalkin-Gol in 1939, he smashed their force in less than 3 weeks. IJA would have no force left to occupy China and Korea, she would have lost her empire right away. If there is one thing we can take from WW2, the Japanese were good at naval, jungle warfare but were wearing diapers when it came to mechanized warfare perfectly demonstrated by Zhukov. The IJA was at best a WWI Army lacking the ability to fight mechanized manoeuvring battles. Thus, the IJA invading Siberia is highly unlikely considering how primitive their understanding of mechanized warfare was and not to mention their weak logistical supply lines. But the Japanese did one good thing, they allowed Zhukov to have some field experience to enable him to became the master of 'Deep Warfare' which eventually led to the destruction of the Nazis.

Hitler should be regarded as the Gretest leaders of Germany including Rodolf Hass ,Hermen Goering , Himler .istead all of them were murdered through western courts .

You do realize that Hitler would have made you work as a slave labour and treated you worse than an animal. He was a racist fu**; anyone not Aryan, blond hair, blue eyes was liable to be slaughtered according to him.

 

[IND151]

Well, Hitler had probably won against the USSR if the Japanese attacked them from the East too...
Well, we will never know.

Soviet spy Ricahrd Sorge informed Stalin that Japan wont attack Soviet Union from east

Sorge transmitted information toward the end of September 1941 that Japan was not going to attack the Soviet Union in the East.
"This information made possible the transfer of Soviet divisions from the Far East, although the presence of the Kwantung Army in Manchuria necessitated the Soviet Union's keeping a large number of troops on the eastern borders..."[21]

Various writers have speculated that this information allowed the release of Siberian divisions for the Battle of Moscow, where the German army suffered its first tactical defeat in the war. To this end, Sorge's information might have been the most important spy work in World War II. At Khimki, a place at the Moscow city border en route to Sheremetyevo International Airport, there is still a memorial plaque reminding visitors of this defining point of modern history.