‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

[Dubious]

So, now you are with me

So, acknowledge this reality that secularism is a theory which is not practical and can't be implemented in it's true essence - you can't remove personal beliefs from someones mind while he/she is performing state affairs. The important thing is the Laws & system which should not differentiate, There is no harm in being Muslim, Hindu, Christian or Jew state if you can do justice.

Yaar I am with truth and understanding...I dont blindly say ok to anything without backup

 

[Jango]

Dear Zarvan

Caliphate always lead to dynastys - not rule of the poeple as expected think about the last caliphates they were ruled by some families

And as per the caliphate it should be democratic


Sunni Islam stipulates that the head of state, the caliph, should be elected by Shura – elected by Muslims or their representatives.[2] Followers of Shia Islam believe the caliph should be an imam chosen by God from the Ahl al-Bayt (Muhammad's purified progeny). From the end of the Rashidun period until 1924, caliphates, sometimes two at a single time, real and illusory, were ruled by dynasties. The first dynasty was the Umayyad. This was followed by the Abbasid, the Fatimid (not recognized by Muslims outside the Fatimid domain), and finally the Ottoman Dynasty.

The Caliphate remained true in essence till the last Khalifa Rashidun, i.e until Hazrat Ali RA.

Afterwards, successive Calpihs kept on getting involved in worldly affairs and corrupted the whole thing, and it turned into a dynastic rule (which it shouldn't have been). This system kept on going until Abdülmecid II and caliphate was then abolished and the rest we all know. A Caliph is basically a good and honest dictator IMO.

Second thing, there is no democracy in Islam...there is no election etc etc. The concept is of a Shura from 'Mashwara'. That is the practice of taking advice and appointing a head through consensus, democracy is not through consensus, atleast the one practiced right now.

If a party loses by 49% votes while other wins by 51%, that doesn't mean that the rule of the winner is accepted by everyone. Who knows the extra 2-3% people were bribed or anything...doesn't give you any guarantees.

The above is my opinion...

 

[Kambojaric]

Sooner or later we will have to move back to the principles of our Quaid if we want to see a prosperous Pakistan. It is not sheer coincidence that the most advanced country in the Muslim world today despite the lack of any abundant natural resources like oil or gas is Turkey. Moving to Pakistan it is not sheer coincidence that countries like S. Korea used to come to us to get their 5 year plans when we had a secular like Ayub Khan in power. Its the bitter truth but unfortunately too many Pakistanis are scared to voice their opinion on this matter thinking they will become a Kafir if they are a secularist, hence giving a free way to the Mullahs to do whatever they wish, as it is the "will of God". (ironically many of these belong to the same party who so vehemently opposed the creation of Pakistan/Jinnah/Iqbal).

 

[Echo_419]

I actually do not know what is?!


@Echo_419 Well, where did these men get their ideas from? And well, books were brought to make MANKIND understand what is good for them and what is not...Like those people you mentioned, the prophets who brought down the books though exited long ago did similar if not better GOOD things...

No they learned them through real life experience did Jinah read Quran & thought that we should create pakistan.Did mahatma rrad Gita & thought india needs freedom.did Buddha read Gita & thought of creating Buddhism.did Martin Luther king read bible & sought equal rights for all no they learned them from life

& these books have also give mankind a lot of bad things caste system , sati , hijab to name a few

 

[Indrajith]

Please understand my dear brother , religion is one's personal matter and governance of country is a public matter , when you say all are ok if they are following what I say is right and others are not ok because they dont follow what i say -- this will never lead to democracy or caliphate as intended - but will lead to autocratic , monochratic dynasytis as what happend with most muslim nations -- When the people try to topple them then comes the theological group with the same idiology of what I say is right and all others are false again another form of autocratic

Hence keep religion away from governance , and let it me enlighten our mind not to kill others and blame others

 

[somebozo]

Sooner or later we will have to move back to the principles of our Quaid if we want to see a prosperous Pakistan. It is not sheer coincidence that the most advanced country in the Muslim world today despite the lack of any abundant natural resources like oil or gas is Turkey. Moving to Pakistan it is not sheer coincidence that countries like S. Korea used to come to us to get their 5 year plans when we had a secular like Ayub Khan in power. Its the bitter truth but unfortunately too many Pakistanis are scared to voice their opinion on this matter thinking they will become a Kafir if they are a secularist, hence giving a free way to the Mullahs to do whatever they wish, as it is the "will of God". (ironically many of these belong to the same party who so vehemently opposed the creation of Pakistan/Jinnah/Iqbal).

They couldn't succeed in stopping the creation of Pakistan so as their leader puts it - Islamize it.
Or in plain English words - destroy it!

 

[Jango]

Another thing worthy to be noted is that the position of the 'Maulvi/Imam' or a Preacher should be elevated by the government.

Currently, anybody who does not get a worthwhile education and who fails in school and drops out at 10th, gets into a Madrassa down the street and becomes a self declared Imam...memorizes the Quran, and voila. Memorizing the Quran does not make you a knowledgeable preacher who has a grasp on Islam and it's essence.

In Turkey, my uncle narrates that when he went there he saw a suited and booted guy clean shave standing in the street next to a mosque. He inquired that who was the Imam of the mosque and the guy replied 'me!'. But in Pakistan, most Imams you see are the ones with shalwar knee high (yes, I've seen those), long dirty beard etc etc. There is no proper system to introduce a proper Imam or a preacher.

If the government wants to keep religion as a key organ of the state (I personally think it should), then there should be proper structure to teach a Imam and get him equipped with the necessary knowledge. So that not any other joe of the street becomes a Imam thanks to a madrassa in Waziristan.

It was only Zia Ul Haq who elevated the status of a religious teacher in the army (forgot the rank at the moment), and this translated into the society.

Same with Turkey, their religious preacher is a person of high social status, in Pakistan he is one of the lowly people, living in a one bed house, poverty ridden, etc etc.

A better religious teacher will translate into a more tolerant society...

 

[Spring Onion]

Then why are you using computer and internet hypocrite,they also came outside Islam and they should also be kuffar.So does cars planes everything,they all have no connection to Islam.

I dont want to debate this kafir kufr word here since moderen day idiots can label anyone as kafir when it suits them how ever as far your comments well frankly speaking you need tyo study Quran to understand that Islam stresseses on exlporing the world and getting knowledge.

Islam is not something static about worldy inventions rather Islam focus on progress of a society and cater to nomral life needs ranging from physical to mental and social ones.

Well the TTP did state they were killing secular minded people when accepted responsibility for both the Bilour and Malala attacks.

TTP doesnt say that neither Bilour and malala have anything to do with secularism.

TTP terrorists target everyone they have killed thousands of Muslims rather devoted ones in Mosques.

 

[Baby Leone]

lol idiotic if tht is the case thn more than 50% of the population should already hav been killed cz even i personally hav seen so many pplz who said tht we are secular & its near islam as well.....(as far as freedom with limits & respecting others are concern thts wht Islam teaches)

 

[somebozo]

Another thing worthy to be noted is that the position of the 'Maulvi/Imam' or a Preacher should be elevated by the government.

Currently, anybody who does not get a worthwhile education and who fails in school and drops out at 10th, gets into a Madrassa down the street and becomes a self declared Imam...memorizes the Quran, and voila. Memorizing the Quran does not make you a knowledgeable preacher who has a grasp on Islam and it's essence.

In Turkey, my uncle narrates that when he went there he saw a suited and booted guy clean shave standing in the street next to a mosque. He inquired that who was the Imam of the mosque and the guy replied 'me!'. But in Pakistan, most Imams you see are the ones with shalwar knee high (yes, I've seen those), long dirty beard etc etc. There is no proper system to introduce a proper Imam or a preacher.

If the government wants to keep religion as a key organ of the state (I personally think it should), then there should be proper structure to teach a Imam and get him equipped with the necessary knowledge. So that not any other joe of the street becomes a Imam thanks to a madrassa in Waziristan.

It was only Zia Ul Haq who elevated the status of a religious teacher in the army (forgot the rank at the moment), and this translated into the society.

Same with Turkey, their religious preacher is a person of high social status, in Pakistan he is one of the lowly people, living in a one bed house, poverty ridden, etc etc.

A better religious teacher will translate into a more tolerant society...

Despite all of this Turkey is once again feeling the pinch of religion making its way into politics. The best model would be separation of state and mosque!
Religion should be regulated under state and mosque should have government appointed part-time volunteers who have a full time day job as doctors engineers scientists etc. This will ensure that religion does not become someone bread and butter.

 

[Spring Onion]

Please understand my dear brother , religion is one's personal matter and governance of country is a public matter , when you say all are ok if they are following what I say is right and others are not ok because they dont follow what i say -- this will never lead to democracy or caliphate as intended - but will lead to autocratic , monochratic dynasytis as what happend with most muslim nations -- When the people try to topple them then comes the theological group with the same idiology of what I say is right and all others are false again another form of autocratic

Hence keep religion away from governance , and let it me enlighten our mind not to kill others and blame others

but the funny thing is that in courts you still see alot of religious stuff going on in countries even those who claim to be secular

 

[somebozo]

but the funny thing is that in courts you still see alot of religious stuff going on in countries even those who claim to be secular

You cannot have a 100% secular or 100% religious society that is a mix of disaster.
Better to take 50% of each and follow a moderate path!

 

[Azazel]

I dont want to debate this kafir kufr word here since moderen day idiots can label anyone as kafir when it suits them how ever as far your comments well frankly speaking you need tyo study Quran to understand that Islam stresseses on exlporing the world and getting knowledge.

Islam is not something static about worldy inventions rather Islam focus on progress of a society and cater to nomral life needs ranging from physical to mental and social ones.

I was kind of stressing on a similar point dear.But the mullah @zaravan doesn't seem to think so.

 

[Jango]

Despite all of this Turkey is once again feeling the pinch of religion making its way into politics. The best model would be separation of state and mosque!
Religion should be regulated under state and mosque should have government appointed part-time volunteers who have a full time day job as doctors engineers scientists etc. This will ensure that religion does not become someone bread and butter.

I wouldn't mind having religious preaching as somebody's bread and butter.

Government run seminaries with a proper system can employ full time teachers.

You can also teach religion while still not being a fundamentalist nutcrack. Rosans school in Lahore is an example, my cousin is now a Hafiz and she did it from this school. It provides O-level education and a good standard of it, while at the same time incorporating Islamic values and also a Hifz course. This is definitely much much better than going to Seminary opposite Soan river with 15 feet high walls and barbed wire on it and with baton wielding masked people guarding the doors!!!!

Here in UAE, the mosque sermons are regulated and need to be approved by the ministry. Same in Oman. I know that Pakistan and these countries have a gigantic population and demographic difference, but atleast there could be a start.

We desperately need to regularize and check the Madrassas and Mosques.

 

[Azazel]

but the funny thing is that in courts you still see alot of religious stuff going on in countries even those who claim to be secular

What do you mean by secularism,The Courts job is to adjudicate legal disputes between parties and carry out the administration of justice in civil, criminal, and administrative matters in accordance with the rule of law.If the religion is involved in the legal dispute then courts have to step in.As long as the laws are kept Seperate from religion their are no issue to secularism.