Addressing the Widening Gap between India / Pakistan for Armored Machines

[randomradio]

What HAL is Heavy Anti Tank???

You misquoted.

Anyway, corrected.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Yes it is not wise because there are so many MBT counters now that most probably most Indian MBT will rot in storage. We all saw a lot of IDEAS 2018 pics but a fairly simple and not attractive missile in the inventory of JF-17 escaped all our attention. The ammunition displayed along JF-17 was fairly simple but there was one air to surface missile there which is a killer for tank formation.

It is air to surface cluster bomb the white missile in front of JF-17 at ideas was the best answer to mbt movement.

Here you can see it in the pic behind the stair case was a white air to ground missile.

View attachment 524481

 

[Signalian]

Been shouting for sometime on PDF regarding MBT role.

Correct deployment of MBT's is to exploit weak points in enemy positions. Not MBT Vs MBT battles, Not walking into ATGM defended positions, unless unavoidable. MBT's are best used to attack enemy from flanks and rear. To create chaos by attacking supply lines, weakly defended positions to open gaps, to maneuver around enemy using high HP engines for constant momentum and then attacking where the MBT cannot be challenged or taken out, to use speed to cover distance where enemy ground forces cannot reach.

To accomplish all this, MBT need APC/IFV support, so infantry can capture the area where MBT's have just paved way. SP Artillery to soften enemy targets, SP AD so UCAV, Gunships and aircrafts cannot attack MBT, Engineers using AVLB's and other Engr armored vehs so water, obstacles etc can be crossed and terrain doesn't pose a problem.

If MBT's are sent in build up areas like urban areas or against well defended enemy, then Syrian, Yemen and other examples can be seen. There are other methods to take out enemy from such areas and using MBT may not be the best option.

Pakistan has 4 major armored formations:

1. 1st Armored using T-80's
2. 6th Armored using AZ
3. 25th Mechanised using AK mainly
4. 26th Mechanised using T-85 and AK

3 of these formations are in the desert where warfare is all about speed, flanking and maneuvering.

 

[BHarwana]

Thank you was finding it difficult to find a clear pic.

 

[Signalian]

Well at high level if we imagine 1 Tank below equal to 100 Tanks even then you can see the massive difference
in mechanize division

View attachment 524495

And yes the Nuke is cure to every thing however , still the conventional capabilities should be still at certain level

India also has to face China and Chinese have thousands more MBT's than India.

True old tanks should be upgraded to something like these

View attachment 524523 View attachment 524524 View attachment 524525

There must be reasons why a 120/125mm main gun is preferred over 35/40mm cannons.

 

[GriffinsRule]

India also has to face China and Chinese have thousands more MBT's than India.


There must be reasons why a 120/125mm main gun is preferred over 35/40mm cannons.

Where would the Chinese tanks come into India from? Better to keep China out of this discussion. All Indian armour is meant to be used against Pakistan

 

[Signalian]

Where would the Chinese tanks come into India from? Better to keep China out of this discussion. All Indian armour is meant to be used against Pakistan

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...o-be-moved-to-Ladakh-soon/article14497629.ece

https://warisboring.com/india-wants-to-match-chinas-mountain-tank/

 

[syed_yusuf]

Been shouting for sometime on PDF regarding MBT role.

Correct deployment of MBT's is to exploit weak points in enemy positions. Not MBT Vs MBT battles, Not walking into ATGM defended positions, unless unavoidable. MBT's are best used to attack enemy from flanks and rear. To create chaos by attacking supply lines, weakly defended positions to open gaps, to maneuver around enemy using high HP engines for constant momentum and then attacking where the MBT cannot be challenged or taken out, to use speed to cover distance where enemy ground forces cannot reach.

To accomplish all this, MBT need APC/IFV support, so infantry can capture the area where MBT's have just paved way. SP Artillery to soften enemy targets, SP AD so UCAV, Gunships and aircrafts cannot attack MBT, Engineers using AVLB's and other Engr armored vehs so water, obstacles etc can be crossed and terrain doesn't pose a problem.

If MBT's are sent in build up areas like urban areas or against well defended enemy, then Syrian, Yemen and other examples can be seen. There are other methods to take out enemy from such areas and using MBT may not be the best option.

Pakistan has 4 major armored formations:

1. 1st Armored using T-80's
2. 6th Armored using AZ
3. 25th Mechanised using AK mainly
4. 26th Mechanised using T-85 and AK

3 of these formations are in the desert where warfare is all about speed, flanking and maneuvering.

nice post.. thanks

 

[Irfan Baloch]

@Irfan Baloch ur assumption is that IA will be the one attacking and PA will defend. what if Pakistan decided to attack first ? Like 65 or 71 ? 3:1 ratio will still be applicable ?

for those who believe that MBT are obsolete do they consider Army ( infantry at least) to be obsolete as well ? and its all about Air War ?

its all war gaming dear. war is a very complex and fluid concept.
65 was a different case. India launched attack after the Kashmir gorilla war and it saw an opportunity result was a stalemate and both sides declared victories. yes there were attacks and counter attacks etc but nothing decisive.

71 was very well played by India. Indian generals had almost a year to prepare while their supported militants laid down the ground work. the forces parity was vastly in Indian favor on the Eastern side. Pakistan did start the attack from the west hoping to "save the Eastern side but fate was decided even before Indians crossed the international borders on the eastern side. 3:1 or 7:1 force comparison varies according to the scale of the fight. the terrain and the types of defenses attackers are facing.

regarding what if? yes offensive defence was a concept first propagated back by Gen Baig during late 80s in the exercise called Zerb e Momin. where apparently a smaller more mobile force with better support and planning can achieve its objectives against a bigger force by outmaneuvering it. Indian cold start is comparable to that. lightening (relative term) fast attacks to capture objectives destroy targets or hold positions to bargain from better position.

nothing is black and white we cant just dismiss a weapon or a military formation to obsolete its use and outlook may evolve.
secondly comparing America vs countries it invades is not a good comparison. it cripples a target country with sanctions, runs coups, assassinations, terrorism and media campaign against it and then launches missiles and high altitude attacks crippling whatever military structure it finds and then sends out a small force to finish the job.

 

[ziaulislam]

First priority has to be air power..air power will dedictate terms..no matter how good armour you get if the opposition has airpower than guided ammunition and clustering bombs are going to do havoc

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Mass produce LG Baktar Shikan in development.

Once the Hindu Tanks will get the Yahudi , active tank protection the potency of Baktar will go down as these systems are able to protect from multiple projectiles it would be a massive boost in Hindu Tank formations

Together with the numerical figures , and numbers the problem only escalates requiring immediate usage of a Lethal Option

 

[Arsalan 345]

pakistan can upgrade their tanks but i feel they should focus more on artillery and attack helicopters.numbers doesn't matter when you are defending.very difficult for india to attack and advance rapidly.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

What's about DU rounds????

 

[punit]

India will be on the offensive and attackers need greater ratio for attack

Pakistan has defensive strategy and thus does not need to match armoured numbers

Pakistani anti tank teams would make mince meat of Indian armour even without heavy tanks

History suggest otherwise. !!!

 

[Goku-kun]

History suggest otherwise. !!!

did you forget battle of chawinda in 1965?
and this is history I don't know which one are you following: