ADB Reports Pakistan's Middle Class Larger Than India's

[linkinpark]

I don't understand why some people believe Indians here got rubber the wrong way. All that is being questioned is ADB report, which is based on data submitted by Pakistan which has been fudged through out this decade by military and political regimes, is not to be taken at face value and needs to be questioned. The articles posted clearly indicates that data has been fudged many times and there is no credibility left in such data any more. Any report (like ADB report) based on such data is not credible either.

 

[SMC]

linkinpark,

you're mainly talking about fudging economic and poverty figures

Let's not be selective and realize that the current government had a lot of beef with Musharraf government and thus made propaganda figures and accusations on Musharraf government.

The poverty figures have been been confirmed to be at 17% in 2007/08 by WB.

In fact, it was the CURRENT government who fudged the poverty figures to 36% as a propaganda against Musharraf. Since you were being selective, you did not mention that.

The growth figures have also been confirmed and every recorded growth rates will show the growth rates that Musharraf government gave.

Man you guys are being defensive plus not seeing the accusations in the context.

You're not directly showing how these figures might be wrong and are showing bits and pieces - most of which are false anyway - that probably make little difference to those figures.

Btw, how do you ADB gets its figures from government of Pakistan? Do you work for them? Does it say on their webpage? Even if they did, how do you know they did not confirm the figures.

I know for a fact that a while ago we had 35% middle class. So an increase into 40% is nothing surprising.

I don't know but there seems to be a great denial here by you. As many indians would call it to a Pakistani doing it, "head buried in the sand". Who knew that some indians were also conspiracy theorists?

 

[SMC]

but still You are more prosperous than us.... u should have higher per capita income. and a 35 or 40 billionaire cannot cover for the country having such a acute poverty. and these billionaires are billionaires because mostly of their shares value, which cannot taken in consideration while calculating per capita income.

but what is unique about pakistan having such a low per capita income??? i am talking specifically about ur own country so pls dont compare it with India

The billionaires and big millionaires (i.e. those into 100s of millions) can heavily skew the GDP and per capita income figures. India's GINI cofficient is worse than that of Pakistan.

That's why you see lesser poverty rate in Pakistan. From a report not long ago, 75% of Indians lived on less than $0.5 a day. For Pakistan, the number of people living below $2 a day was 60%.

 

[Guynextdoor]

linkinpark,

you're mainly talking about fudging economic and poverty figures

Let's not be selective and realize that the current government had a lot of beef with Musharraf government and thus made propaganda figures and accusations on Musharraf government.

The poverty figures have been been confirmed to be at 17% in 2007/08 by WB.

In fact, it was the CURRENT government who fudged the poverty figures to 36% as a propaganda against Musharraf. Since you were being selective, you did not mention that.

The growth figures have also been confirmed and every recorded growth rates will show the growth rates that Musharraf government gave.

Man you guys are being defensive plus not seeing the accusations in the context.

You're not directly showing how these figures might be wrong and are showing bits and pieces - most of which are false anyway - that probably make little difference to those figures.

Btw, how do you ADB gets its figures from government of Pakistan? Do you work for them?

I don't know but there seems to be a great denial here by you. As many indians would call it to a Pakistani doing it, "head buried in the sand". Who knew that some indians were also conspiracy theorists?

the world isn't talking about India because we grew fast for one/two years- it's becuase we've grown at 7-8-9% for 20 years. Now compare it with your stats-no matter what your numbers are they don't measure up to our performance. Now you tell me the logical thing- will pak that has seen lots of instability and really lacklusture growth be better than India? And what does he mean 'visible' prosperity? You think we haven't seen 'visible' prosperity with millions of new homes? We made infrastructure investments worth 500 B USD building national highways, 100,000 kms of rural roads and other infra. Our investments for the next 5 years are One TRILLION, does mr. haq know how many zeroes there are in that figure? And you think you can match us? Now if we were debating seriously, i could always talk like a true discussion on ADB methodoly, what it means etc. But that really isn't mr.haq's inetions isn't it? It's just a lot of ranting & half truths and i really don't want to waste my time.

 

[SMC]

the world isn't talking about India because we grew fast for one/two years- it's becuase we've grown at 7-8-9% for 20 years. Now compare it with your stats-no matter what your numbers are they don't measure up to our performance. Now you tell me the logical thing- will pak that has seen lots of instability and really lacklusture growth be better than India? And what does he mean 'visible' prosperity? You think we haven't seen 'visible' prosperity with millions of new homes? We made infrastructure investments worth 500 B USD building national highways, 100,000 kms of rural roads and other infra. Our investments for the next 5 years are One TRILLION, does mr. haq know how many zeroes there are in that figure? And you think you can match us? Now if we were debating seriously, i could always talk like a true discussion on ADB methodoly, what it means etc. But that really isn't mr.haq's inetions isn't it? It's just a lot of ranting & half truths and i really don't want to waste my time.

Here we go, self-glorifying, diversion, defensive techniques. Much of it isn't relevant to the topic, and whether true or not (some of it is false in fact), I will not mention it.

Our economy opened up a while ago and we experienced good growth at many stages in our history. You see, despite india's growth, India's per capita income is still only marginally ahead of Pakistan. That's because we had a lot of growth previously which meant we already had quite a big middle class to begin with.

Now add in the fact that Pakistan's wealth distribution is quite better and poverty rates are less and the figures very much add up.

So get out of your denial mate.

 

[Guynextdoor]

The billionaires and big millionaires (i.e. those into 100s of millions) can heavily skew the GDP and per capita income figures. India's GINI cofficient is worse than that of Pakistan.

That's why you see lesser poverty rate in Pakistan. From a report not long ago, 75% of Indians lived on less than $0.5 a day. For Pakistan, the number of people living below $2 a day was 60%.

Fact is that most of India's 'Big' corporations are publicly listed so even 'Billionaires' don't really concentrate that high a % of wealth as a proportion of GDP. Plus, they key question is for a country doubling it's economy every 8 years be compared to a rather stagnant economy like yours?

a) When we had a YOY growth rate of 4%, we used to call it 'hindu rate of growth'. You are wobbling in that range frequently. Whatever the indicators are, we'll be doubling the positives in 8 years.

b) While u refer to our Per Capita as being equal to yours, what you don't point out is that we were waaay below you not too long ago. At our rates we're now ahead of you- be twice as high as you in 8 years & four times in fifteen years. An unbridgeable gap even if you worked hard.

c) It's a misconception that only urban india is booming. Rural India is growing rapidly. Most importantly, while u ppl keep bblaring about farmer suicides, what you don't realize is that % of rural incomes on farm income is steadily falling- a FUNDAMENTAL shift that has long term implications.

d) We've build 100,000 Kms of rural roads and thousands of kms of world class national highways to connect our hinterland (so that 200 km motorway you keep bragging about really don't impress us at all- maybe an achievement to u but is nowhere close to our standards).

 

[Guynextdoor]

Here we go, self-glorifying, diversion, defensive techniques. Much of it isn't relevant to the topic, and whether true or not (some of it is false in fact), I will not mention it.

Our economy opened up a while ago and we experienced good growth at many stages in our history. You see, despite india's growth, India's per capita income is still only marginally ahead of Pakistan. That's because we had a lot of growth previously which meant we already had quite a big middle class to begin with.

Now add in the fact that Pakistan's wealth distribution is quite better and poverty rates are less and the figures very much add up.

So get out of your denial mate.

Point out the 'false' pieces and we'll debate. Maybe you should start using common sense instead of blind nationalism- only people who work hard move forward so how do you think that with all this turbulence you are ahead of us?

 

[SMC]

Fact is that most of India's 'Big' corporations are publicly listed so even 'Billionaires' don't really concentrate that high a % of wealth as a proportion of GDP. Plus, they key question is for a country doubling it's economy every 8 years be compared to a rather stagnant economy like yours?

a) When we had a YOY growth rate of 4%, we used to call it 'hindu rate of growth'. You are wobbling in that range frequently. Whatever the indicators are, we'll be doubling the positives in 8 years.

b) While u refer to our Per Capita as being equal to yours, what you don't point out is that we were waaay below you not too long ago. At our rates we're now ahead of you- be twice as high as you in 8 years & four times in fifteen years. An unbridgeable gap even if you worked hard.

c) It's a misconception that only urban india is booming. Rural India is growing rapidly. Most importantly, while u ppl keep bblaring about farmer suicides, what you don't realize is that % of rural incomes on farm income is steadily falling- a FUNDAMENTAL shift that has long term implications.

d) We've build 100,000 Kms of rural roads and thousands of kms of world class national highways to connect our hinterland (so that 200 km motorway you keep bragging about really don't impress us at all- maybe an achievement to u but is nowhere close to our standards).

Again, I will only discuss the relevant part - which is income distribution - as you seem hell bent on using red herrings as your way of defence.

India has what, 10-30 billionaires? So you have your billionaires + extremely rich families contributing 20-30% of your GDP.

This is reflected in the fact that India has 75% of its population living below $0.5 a day. That was the case a couple years ago, so I don't see what would've changed changed in 2 years.

 

[SMC]

Point out the 'false' pieces and we'll debate. Maybe you should start using common sense instead of blind nationalism- only people who work hard move forward so how do you think that with all this turbulence you are ahead of us?

What is false is off-topic, hence I will not go into it. Again, try to stay on-topic and don't be hell bent on going off-topic as your line of defence.

 

[SMC]

With India, you're talking with a middle class of 30%. Add in more wealth equality with nearly equal per capita income and I don't see how 40% figure looks so impossible to you.

 

[Guynextdoor]

Again, I will only discuss the relevant part - which is income distribution - as you seem hell bent on using red herrings as your way of defence.

India has what, 10-30 billionaires? So you have your billionaires + extremely rich families contributing 20-30% of your GDP.

This is reflected in the fact that India has 75% of its population living below $0.5 a day. That was the case a couple years ago, so I don't see what would've changed changed in 2 years.

Amatuerish. 30 Billionaires so 30% of GDP? So India's GDP is $100 B? Buddy we're about 12-15 times that. And where did u get that figure of .5 a day? The world bank estimates put it a $2 a day. While I could take the PPP argument that $2=$8 in PPP terms & therefore not as serious as before, I didn't take that line & said instead that at our current growth in 15 years we'll take care of problems...and you won't.
For income distribution I pointed out both farm incomes as well as rural and highway infrastructre. I am yet to see a logical post from you. Most importantly the common sense logic of what happens to a country with basic governance that is highly unstable has not been explained. You can contiunue in your denial.

 

[RiazHaq]

Again, I will only discuss the relevant part - which is income distribution - as you seem hell bent on using red herrings as your way of defence.

India has what, 10-30 billionaires? So you have your billionaires + extremely rich families contributing 20-30% of your GDP.

This is reflected in the fact that India has 75% of its population living below $0.5 a day. That was the case a couple years ago, so I don't see what would've changed changed in 2 years.

The number of Indian billionaires rose from nine in 2004 to 40 in 2007, says Forbes magazine. That's higher than Japan which had 24, while France and Italy had 14 billionaires each. When one of the world's highest number of billionaires coexist with what one economist calls the world's "largest number of homeless, ill-fed illiterates", something is gravely wrong. This is what rankles many in this happy season of positive thinking.

BBC - Soutik Biswas's India: Harbingers of hope for India in 2010?

 

[Guynextdoor]

What is false is off-topic, hence I will not go into it. Again, try to stay on-topic and don't be hell bent on going off-topic as your line of defence.

Sorry all nos. are correct and bang on including all those dazzling figures. I can understand the trauma one is likely to feel when one sees just how much your neighbor is working his *** off to move forward....

 

[SMC]

Amatuerish. 30 Billionaires so 30% of GDP? So India's GDP is $100 B? Buddy we're about 12-15 times that. And where did u get that figure of .5 a day? The world bank estimates put it a $2 a day. While I could take the PPP argument that $2=$8 in PPP terms & therefore not as serious as before, I didn't take that line & said instead that at our current growth in 15 years we'll take care of problems...and you won't.
For income distribution I pointed out both farm incomes as well as rural and highway infrastructre. I am yet to see a logical post from you. Most importantly the common sense logic of what happens to a country with basic governance that is highly unstable has not been explained. You can contiunue in your denial.

I am not talking about 30 billionaires mate. I am talking about extremely rich families. Plus, every billionaire does not just have wealth of only 1 billion dollars. I believe some have much more than that. Do the math then.

Here is the source on the 75% figure. I was actually being generous with calling it 75%.

Nearly 80 pct of India lives on half dollar a day | Reuters

What do you call a logical reply? You're continuously off-topic and I am not feeding that. I have pointed out the worse GINI figures yet you seem to be in denial here.

What does highly unstable government have to do here? An unstable government means 40% of population cannot be in the middle class?

 

[RiazHaq]

Amatuerish. 30 Billionaires so 30% of GDP? So India's GDP is $100 B? Buddy we're about 12-15 times that. And where did u get that figure of .5 a day? The world bank estimates put it a $2 a day. While I could take the PPP argument that $2=$8 in PPP terms & therefore not as serious as before, I didn't take that line & said instead that at our current growth in 15 years we'll take care of problems...and you won't.
For income distribution I pointed out both farm incomes as well as rural and highway infrastructre. I am yet to see a logical post from you. Most importantly the common sense logic of what happens to a country with basic governance that is highly unstable has not been explained. You can contiunue in your denial.

$2 a day in PPP terms translates in to about 50 US cents for India. That's the line used by ADB to separate the poor from the middle class. Vast majority of Indian and Pakistani middle class of about 25% of the Indian populations and 40% of Pakistani population sit close to the edge of $2.00 in PPP terms.

Here's the breakdown:

Daily Income......$2-$4.......$4-$10........$10-$20.....Over $20

India...............20.45%......4.15%........0.45%........0.10%

Pakistan............32.94%......6.56%........0.62%........0.15%

China ..............33.97%......25.17%.......3.54%........0.68%