Acts of Terrorism in pakistan I

[IceCold]

What are Pakistan's interests? Are the Taliban's interests the same as Pakistans? NO, they're not. The Taliban already got bombed by the Americans. Look at them, they have no country, no infrastructure, no educational system. Do you believe this to be in Pakistan's interests? To be in the same boat as the Taliban is not? Think please. Don't just join hands with your fellows because you can't think for yourself.

Who are the tailbans? first lets answer this question. Tailbans were people created by pakistan with the help of CIA to counter the russian invasion in afghanistan. Now wasnt that our interest to counter the soviets in afghanistan then, so tailbans were fighting for our cause.
Now lets take an example of afghanistan, do you think that this current government of karzai, is in favour of pakistan, or the five indian counsalates in afganistan are in favour of pakistan? Pakistan was much stable during the tailbans rule in afghanistan then this current regime. How many sucide bombs exploded in pakistan during the tailbans rule in afghanistan or how many chinese were killed duirng the tailbans rule in afghainstan or how many PA personal were taken hostage during the tailbans rule in afghanistan?
Take your time to answer these questions and you would know who was in favour of pakistan, the tailbans or this war against them, which not only has made tailban our enemy but another enemy in the name of afghanistan whos puppet government is playing in the hands of the indians and we now have to divert our assests on the afghanistan border instead of just focusing on the indians and not to mention the instability that we can see in pakistan, the bomb explosions the kidnapping..................

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Talibans are radicals and are wedded to Osama's ideology and he is a Salafi or Waahabi.

If one feels that Taliban were the best thing that could happen to Afghanistan, then would they also appreciate the same if it were done to Pakistan, how many would love to be under such a regime?

What is the guarantee that the Taliban after organising Afghanistan in true Islam tenets not turn there attention to Pakistan? Taliban, after all, is a Pakistani creation and so what prevents them from addressing those who created them and who were not living in true Islamic ways?

Maybe, Musharraf realised that the Frankenstein of Zia could turn on Pakistan! Maybe!

Let us not underestimate Musharraf and his wisdom.

 

[IceCold]

Are you suggesting that tailban, whos biggest supporter was pakistan and who have helped them in achieving control over afghanistan, could turn on to pakistan. LOL man. I dont know what to say.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

You feel that they can't?

One sure would want to know the reason why they won't, unless of course, Pakistan follows the Wahaabi cult.

Would Pakistan?

What makes you feel that they would not love to make their biggest backer, the biggest icon of their cult?

ROFL, man!

You underestimate their zeal to reform the Islamic world!

 

[blitz]

What is this debate about Pakistani interests Vs American interests ? Has self-delusion been refined into an art form in Pakistan ?

American interests are Pakistani interests, or might i say Pakistani Army's interests. Recall the 3 A's of Pakistan. Allah, Army & America. That pretty much sums Pakistan up. To be and stay in the good books of America is of supreme interest of Pakistan. Everyone else knows it, i don't know how Pakistanis are so blind to it.

Its American weapons that defend Pakistan, its American aid and American influenced World Bank and IMF loans that prop Pakistani economy from the ground up. A Pakistani living in Pakistan is not a citizen, hes a resident of Pakistan. A citizen is someone with a vote and a say in his government, a resident is someone who just happens to live there with no control over who rules him. Pakistan Army is Pakistan, and American interests are Pakistani Army interests.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What is this debate about Pakistani interests Vs American interests ? Has self-delusion been refined into an art form in Pakistan ?

American interests are Pakistani interests, or might i say Pakistani Army's interests. Recall the 3 A's of Pakistan. Allah, Army & America. That pretty much sums Pakistan up. To be and stay in the good books of America is of supreme interest of Pakistan. Everyone else knows it, i don't know how Pakistanis are so blind to it.

Its American weapons that defend Pakistan, its American aid and American influenced World Bank and IMF loans that prop Pakistani economy from the ground up. A Pakistani living in Pakistan is not a citizen, hes a resident of Pakistan. A citizen is someone with a vote and a say in his government, a resident is someone who just happens to live there with no control over who rules him. Pakistan Army is Pakistan, and American interests are Pakistani Army interests.

Self delusion exists everywhere in the world. Lets not pretend that Indians or the West are somehow devoid of the flaws that afflict the human race. When you have a forum for discussion, it is but natural that you will see a wide cross section of opinion. Generalizations and stereotyping do nothing for conveying your intellectual ability to respond to issues, it only illustrates a desire to inflame and express "superiority".

If you find the comments illogical or moved from reality, there are various ways to get your point across, other than stereotyping and insulting the entire country. Most of the pakistani posters who disagree with the opinions of IceCold and Dabong, are able to discourse without resorting to "cheap shots". Most of them also do not use the comments of posters, say on other Indian forums, as being characteristic of Indians or India - most of the comments, that you may find to be illogical, are easily matched in tone and content by those on some Indian forums.

Now this is the first I have heard of the "Three A's" pf Pakistan? Pray tell where you get that from? With respect to your comment about "staying in AMerica's good books" - a lot of Indians would disagree, and do, while others see the sense in such an position. The same exists in Pakistan. Not everyone analyzes a situation from a cold geo-strategic POV. No need to belittle someone because they don't share your opinion about a relationship with the US.

The only part in your post that was of any use was the last paragraph. You finally got away from the generalizations and insults. I disagree with your definition of "citizen" though. Considering how much policy is shaped by special interest groups in the U.S - you could then apply that definition to imply that the only citizens in the US are those groups and the military.

 

[su-47]

Are you suggesting that tailban, whos biggest supporter was pakistan and who have helped them in achieving control over afghanistan, could turn on to pakistan. LOL man. I dont know what to say.

USA used to b the taliban's financial backers when USSR invaded afghanistan. Now USA is taliban's enemy. so if they can turn on USA, they can turn on pak.

There r no such things as friends in politics. u can refer to an associate as 'friend' for easy reference, but in politics there r only interests, not friends.

If pakistan are against taliban interest, then taliban will fight pak

 

[blitz]

Agnostic, first of all my apologies. I did not intend to sound so condescending. Because of something else in my day, i went on this pathetic rant of mine. Reading it now after sometime i do realize my stupidity.

Ok i shall argue this in a civil manner. First of all, the three A's of Pakistan are quite famous, and not just in India. In fact i heard it the first time from one British individual. I am surprised you haven't heard it. Anyways, so the point i am trying to make is that no matter how much might the Pakistani public hate America, Pakistani rulers know that American support is indispensable for Pakistan, even more so than China, both militarily and economically. At least for now.

As for the citizen concept, well, there are interest groups everywhere. But a person with a vote is a person with a voice, no matter how small it is. After all we are all just tiny living cells in the greater living body we call our country. I compare the right to vote with the sensation of pain in a body. If you ignore or mistreat a certain part of the body, the brain registers pain. Thus it forces the brain to pay attention to that body part and its constituting cells and at least try to address its problem to ease the pain. A country where its people cannot vote is like a body whose brain does not register pain. In such cases, the brain can knowingly or unknowingly abuse any part of its body to achieve a certain goal without realizing how much harm is being done to itself.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Blitz,
Yeah I can relate to that feeling of "ranting because of your day". Alls good then.

Now about the three A's. I have a feeling that they are a remnant of Zia-ul-Haq's era. I do think that under Musharraf a deliberate attempt has been made to break away from the A of Allah, at least from the perspective of it being a cornerstone of state policy. Yes the rulers still throw sops to the religion crowd, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, but is the involvement of religion at this level really any different from what goes on in the U.S? Even the Democratic presidential candidates, bastions of liberalism that they claim to be, have taken pains to convey the presence of religion in their life. Polls suggest that most Americans still believe that religion is a good attribute in a presidential candidate. I am not suggesting that Pakistani society/govt. is at a comparable place, but that religion, as state policy in the past decade, has fallen away quite a bit. Since my own interest in socio and geo-political affairs in the region perked up a few years ago, this third A - of Allah has never really come across to me.

I agree with you on the difference in perceptions, between the Govt. and society, of what better serves Pakistani interests. But I think this can be addressed to some extent with continued economic growth- both horizontally and vertically - for most people the benefits of any policy have to be tangible, and it will take a few more years before a majority of Pakistanis can feel the "economic benefits" of the current policy.

 

[blitz]

Thanks Agnostic. So what is your opinion about the last part i edited and added to my last post, about 'citizen' ?

"As for the citizen concept, well, there are interest groups everywhere. But a person with a vote is a person with a voice, no matter how small it is. After all we are all just tiny living cells in the greater living body we call our country. I compare the right to vote with the sensation of pain in a body. If you ignore or mistreat a certain part of the body, the brain registers pain. Thus it forces the brain to pay attention to that body part and its constituting cells and at least try to address its problem to ease the pain. A country where its people cannot vote is like a body whose brain does not register pain. In such cases, the brain can knowingly or unknowingly abuse any part of its body to achieve a certain goal without realizing how much harm is being done to itself."

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As for the citizen concept, well, there are interest groups everywhere. But a person with a vote is a person with a voice, no matter how small it is. After all we are all just tiny living cells in the greater living body we call our country. I compare the right to vote with the sensation of pain in a body. If you ignore or mistreat a certain part of the body, the brain registers pain. Thus it forces the brain to pay attention to that body part and its constituting cells and at least try to address its problem to ease the pain. A country where its people cannot vote is like a body whose brain does not register pain. In such cases, the brain can knowingly or unknowingly abuse any part of its body to achieve a certain goal without realizing how much harm is being done to itself.

Very nicely put, and I agree. A democracy, with strong institutions, will win hands down in the long run over any other kind of system. To me that sets India in a rung higher than China for example, regardless of where they are placed right now. I hope that when the dust settles on the recent political turmoil in Pakistan, the voters will come out in droves, and we can move towards strengthening our institutions and our democracy as well.

 

[roadrunner]

Blitz,
Yeah I can relate to that feeling of "ranting because of your day". Alls good then.

Now about the three A's. I have a feeling that they are a remnant of Zia-ul-Haq's era. I do think that under Musharraf a deliberate attempt has been made to break away from the A of Allah, at least from the perspective of it being a cornerstone of state policy. Yes the rulers still throw sops to the religion crowd, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, but is the involvement of religion at this level really any different from what goes on in the U.S? Even the Democratic presidential candidates, bastions of liberalism that they claim to be, have taken pains to convey the presence of religion in their life. Polls suggest that most Americans still believe that religion is a good attribute in a presidential candidate. I am not suggesting that Pakistani society/govt. is at a comparable place, but that religion, as state policy in the past decade, has fallen away quite a bit. Since my own interest in socio and geo-political affairs in the region perked up a few years ago, this third A - of Allah has never really come across to me.

I agree with you on the difference in perceptions, between the Govt. and society, of what better serves Pakistani interests. But I think this can be addressed to some extent with continued economic growth- both horizontally and vertically - for most people the benefits of any policy have to be tangible, and it will take a few more years before a majority of Pakistanis can feel the "economic benefits" of the current policy.

Musharraf has not gotten rid of religion in the slightest. He wants extreme religion out, moderate Islamism in, I totally agree with his stance. Moderate Islam is not a danger to the state, extreme Islam, the teaching of the AlQ, the Taliban, they are all incompatible with Pakistani society. If I've come to the wrong conclusion about your post, apologies, but i don't have much time to read it fully right now.

 

[IceCold]

What is this debate about Pakistani interests Vs American interests ? Has self-delusion been refined into an art form in Pakistan ?

American interests are Pakistani interests, or might i say Pakistani Army's interests. Recall the 3 A's of Pakistan. Allah, Army & America. That pretty much sums Pakistan up. To be and stay in the good books of America is of supreme interest of Pakistan. Everyone else knows it, i don't know how Pakistanis are so blind to it.

Its American weapons that defend Pakistan, its American aid and American influenced World Bank and IMF loans that prop Pakistani economy from the ground up. A Pakistani living in Pakistan is not a citizen, hes a resident of Pakistan. A citizen is someone with a vote and a say in his government, a resident is someone who just happens to live there with no control over who rules him. Pakistan Army is Pakistan, and American interests are Pakistani Army interests.

You know blitz, i had a better opinion about you, but reading your post has changed it. Anyhow i wasnt disappointed because one can expect anything from an indian.
As for your mentioning about the 3A's, i can just easily reply you with a more aggressive approach, but it isnt worth my time and besides i dont like to get personal, this isnt my style, nor i like ranting about any country.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Musharraf has not gotten rid of religion in the slightest. He wants extreme religion out, moderate Islamism in, I totally agree with his stance. Moderate Islam is not a danger to the state, extreme Islam, the teaching of the AlQ, the Taliban, they are all incompatible with Pakistani society. If I've come to the wrong conclusion about your post, apologies, but i don't have much time to read it fully right now.

Yes, thats exactly what I was trying to convey. My understanding of the rationale behind including Allah in the 3 A's, was that it was done with Zia-ul-Haq's vision of religion and the state in mind, and Mushy has moved away from that, therefore rendering that idea of "3 A's" obsolete.

I personally see moderate religion as an extremely useful tool in the evolution of society. Freedom is necessary, but it has to be tempered with values, ethics, morals that allow for a "structured evolution". This isn't just abut "modest dress" or "pre-marital sex", but inculcating values in society that allow for respect for beliefs, laws, environment, civic responsibilities - and when properly utilized, there is no better enforcer than God/Gods.

 

[blitz]

You know blitz, i had a better opinion about you, but reading your post has changed it. Anyhow i wasnt disappointed because one can expect anything from an indian.
As for your mentioning about the 3A's, i can just easily reply you with a more aggressive approach, but it isnt worth my time and besides i dont like to get personal, this isnt my style, nor i like ranting about any country.

Ice, if you read my following post, i did publicly apologize for the post. I try my best to be as detached from emotions as possible while debating. My earlier rant was in extremely bad taste and i apologize again.

By the way, i do deserve a little of what you gave me still.