A Vision of a New Combined Arms Philosophy & Doctrine

[PanzerKiel]

I will use Karunjhar as a jumpspot and troops will travel not only through the marshes but over them using hovercrafts, airborne assault and marine assault from the sea.

Close Air Support aircraft such as outlined by me here will be used by all the forces indicated including those in karunjhar mountains. Parachute drops.

Relatively minor forces from multiple directions and via multiple means will assault Bhuj thus escaping early detection. Once the assault is underway I will reinforce those positions with larger forces from Karachi, Badin, Karunjhar and V Corps as deployed above.

Meanwhile the Pak coast is guarded two brigades of conscripts and an additional division just north of Badin.

Not practical i must say.

-A salient, already surrounded on three sides by the enemy, cannot be a jump off point. Moreover, this particular salient is too small for assembly of forces. Enemy field artillery would have a field picking off targets here.

- Assuming for a moment that this big a force crosses the marshes, how their supply convoys going to reach them? (Sustainability)

- Do we have the required number of hovercrafts to transport a big force? Are you ready to conduct parachute drops over marshy area, into marshes?

-How would the large mechanized forces of 5 Corps cross the marshes?

- By coast, i meant the coast from Karachi to Gwadar, whose guarding this area against an amphibious landing?

Does India dictates our response?

If your planning is good, everything worked out to the minutest detail...no matter how big your adversary is, you can always dictate. History is full of examples.

 

[Mentee]

Not practical i must say.

-A salient, already surrounded on three sides by the enemy, cannot be a jump off point. Moreover, this particular salient is too small for assembly of forces. Enemy field artillery would have a field picking off targets here.

- Assuming for a moment that this big a force crosses the marshes, how their supply convoys going to reach them? (Sustainability)

- Do we have the required number of hovercrafts to transport a big force? Are you ready to conduct parachute drops over marshy area, into marshes?

-How would the large mechanized forces of 5 Corps cross the marshes?

- By coast, i meant the coast from Karachi to Gwadar, whose guarding this area against an amphibious landing?



If your planning is good, everything worked out to the minutest detail...no matter how big your adversary is, you can always dictate. History is full of examples.

I take it as a yes.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Okay let me retry that. 17 corps will partially relief embattled XIV Corps which is facing multiple axis as it has to deal with the Chinese threat in the Leh axis while holding off battle hardened Northern Light Infantry. The rest of 17th corps assaults north of Mansera while a portion is kept to quell uprising in Srinagar.

- In 14 Corps area, Indians occupy most of the heights. At that altitude, its very difficult take mountain top positions while trudging in snow.

- Again, if 17 Mountain Strike Corps, instead of taking the battle into our territory, gets bogged down in defensive battle, then it has been not employed well.

 

[Armchair]

In the battle further north from Bhuj, Pakistani 5th Corps and XII Corps are decimating Indian XXI Corps, which is not being supported by Indian XII Corps due to fighting for Bhuj.

PA is using a new tactic not seen before. It is using Close Air Support aircraft with a new Combined Arms doctrine. Drones and CAS aircraft flown by PAA is combining with armor, artillery and mechanized forces to attack Indian forces.

Indians are reinforcing this position with straggling units from the East and South. As conscript divisions and brigades from the Pakistani side come to aid the battle in the Jodhpur axis.

Further north other than minor changes, the battle is grinding and slow. Indians are generally in trouble in the Bikaner axis but holding their ground with reinforcements, despite assault from Pak II Corps and XXXI Corps.

However, in a sudden move, Pakistani V Corps and XII Corps disengage Indian XXI Corps and move towards Bikaner, leaving a small contingent of regular PA supplemented by the 2 divisions equivalent of (marked in red) conscript forces.

This forces Indian I Corps to retreat towards Jaipur. It also forces India to assign elements from X Corps and II Corps to defend the roads to New Delhi relieving pressure on Pakpattan.

With Pakistan employing over 200 CAS aircraft and drones similar to https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/a-vi...rms-philosophy-doctrine.561888/#post-10541077

and fighting in open terrain, Indian forces are now facing a combined arms capability not seen before in the Indian subcontinent.

Not practical i must say.

-A salient, already surrounded on three sides by the enemy, cannot be a jump off point. Moreover, this particular salient is too small for assembly of forces. Enemy field artillery would have a field picking off targets here.

- Assuming for a moment that this big a force crosses the marshes, how their supply convoys going to reach them? (Sustainability)

- Do we have the required number of hovercrafts to transport a big force? Are you ready to conduct parachute drops over marshy area, into marshes?

-How would the large mechanized forces of 5 Corps cross the marshes?

- By coast, i meant the coast from Karachi to Gwadar, whose guarding this area against an amphibious landing?



If your planning is good, everything worked out to the minutest detail...no matter how big your adversary is, you can always dictate. History is full of examples.

Okay sorry missed this post of yours. Let me try to answer your points in'sha'Allah.

Regarding viability of Karoonjar Mountains see the following links:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/karoonjhar-mountains-commanding-heights.558605/page-2#post-10495601
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/karoonjhar-mountains-commanding-heights.558605/page-4#post-10501390
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/karoonjhar-mountains-commanding-heights.558605/page-4#post-10507246

I think they will indicate that such a plan is most viable.

2. There is no big forces crossing the marsh, small forces from multiple vectors - from the Sea amphibiously, from Karunjhor around the lake, another way is using small numbers of hovercraft, heliborne and paradrop. there is also a portion where a bridge can be constructed just south west of the lake.

Regarding Karachi and Gwadar, check the red Xs. Each X is a brigade and XX is a division. In addition, not all the marines which now number 12000 are being used. Marshes near gwadar are impassable btw I've been there planting mangroves. nothing much Indians can do there.

- Again, if 17 Mountain Strike Corps, instead of taking the battle into our territory, gets bogged down in defensive battle, then it has been not employed well.

Let me try again, but no matter what the Indian 17 Mountain Strike Corps does they will be bogged down, its inevitable. The terrain in Kashmir only some minor small openings near the southern sections which are tankable. However, these areas are heavily defended by PA. These are gridlock battles all the way. Even beyond Kashmir, from Sialkot to just south of Lahore neither side will progress much even though both sides employ everything and their dog.

This is because of the defensive canals and waterways and the heavily fortified battlefield on both sides.

 

[Armchair]

As Indian I Corps retreats towards Jaipur, Pakistani V Corps pushes from behind. Meanwhile, with the road open to New Delhi, Indian X torps moves to protect the Indian capital and all possible reinforcements are sent.

Indian X Corps and reinforcements to protect New Delhi meets Pakistani XII Corps but this leaves only Indian II Corps facing Pakistani IX Corps and two divisions of conscripts, who now go on the offensive.

Meanwhile, Pakistani XXXI Corps and II Corps, one with mechanized division and the other with armored division attack the gap between Indian II Corps and X Corps. Facing nearly 4 Pakistani Corps including mechanized and armoured divisions, a large number of Indian II Corps is flanked and surrounded, rest retreat towards Faridkot.

 

[Armchair]

As elements from the surviving II Corps escape towards Faridkot-Moga, Pakistani XXXI Corps and II Corps move to Bathinda while a brigade from the XI Corps moves towards Firozpur on the Indian side of the border.

India's entire Northern command in Kashmir is now under threat as Pakistan Army now has a free hand to move towards Ludhiana. Indian XI Corps which was assaulting the Lahore axis is now forced to rethink its position. It sends a brigade to reinforce the remaining elements of Indian II Corps and stop it being outflanked from the West.

However, IA has no solution for Pakistani XXXI Corps and II Corps moving East or North East towards Ladhiana or Chandhigar. Pakistani forces move forward towards both while further pushing the remnants of Indian II Corps northwards.

Indian Army now makes a rush attempt to contain the Pakistani breakthrough but prospects don't seem good. Pakistani XXXI Corps and II Corps are themselves stretched and exhausted. The final position looks like this.

In the broader map, you can see the relative position of forces. Pakistan has essentially taken a good chunk of Indian Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan and Bhuj.

The timeline of events:

Week 1 - Crossborder raid by IAF and military escalation
Week 2 - IA attacks Pak Kashmir, military confrontation begins. Pak retaliates in Bhuj and attacks across international borders towards on Bhuj, Bikaner, Jodpur axis.
Week 3 - Pak overcomes IA in Bikaner and moves towards Jalandar and Chandigarh
Week 4 - Front lines begin to stabilize as India is shocked at losses
Week 5 - Ceasefire. India demands Pak retreat with promises of holding elections in Kashmir
Week 6.... (you tell me)

@PanzerKiel how did I do?

Strategies that made this victory possible.

1. Combined arms operation with a meaningful fixed wing CAS working organically via PAA with armoured divisions. See this link1 and link 2 and link 3.
Also use of armed UAVs.
2. An enlarged army using conscripts creating 10 new divisions (this could easily be even 20 new divisions). This was done at minimal cost with 2nd hand SKS from China, T-59 tanks upgraded similar to Zarrar, old 155mm towed artillery and investment in wheeled APCs. One possible innovation is to use mortar guns similar to those mounted on Russian BMP3s. These act nearly like artillery but are cheaper to produce, use and transport. Basically its a sweet spot between an artillery gun and a mortar.
These conscript divisions did the following:
a) held Western borders allowing PA and paramilitary forces to focus on the East
b) held the Coast allowing Pak marines to focus more on Bhuj
c) Held defensive positions and relieved attacking PA formations allowing PA to use its more professional forces to go forward with their attacks.

Regarding Bhuj there are actually 6 different vectors from which Pak is attacking:
1. the sea - small numbers of navy commandos / marines
2. Landbridge fromd Badin axis
3. Karunjhar over the lake (hovercraft)
4. Karunjhar around the lake
5. Heliborne
6. Paratroopers.

Where are you @Signalian I think you may like this : )

 

[PanzerKiel]

View attachment 623584

As elements from the surviving II Corps escape towards Faridkot-Moga, Pakistani XXXI Corps and II Corps move to Bathinda while a brigade from the XI Corps moves towards Firozpur on the Indian side of the border.

India's entire Northern command in Kashmir is now under threat as Pakistan Army now has a free hand to move towards Ludhiana. Indian XI Corps which was assaulting the Lahore axis is now forced to rethink its position. It sends a brigade to reinforce the remaining elements of Indian II Corps and stop it being outflanked from the West.

However, IA has no solution for Pakistani XXXI Corps and II Corps moving East or North East towards Ladhiana or Chandhigar. Pakistani forces move forward towards both while further pushing the remnants of Indian II Corps northwards.

Indian Army now makes a rush attempt to contain the Pakistani breakthrough but prospects don't seem good. Pakistani XXXI Corps and II Corps are themselves stretched and exhausted. The final position looks like this.
View attachment 623590

In the broader map, you can see the relative position of forces. Pakistan has essentially taken a good chunk of Indian Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan and Bhuj.
View attachment 623596

The timeline of events:

Week 1 - Crossborder raid by IAF and military escalation
Week 2 - IA attacks Pak Kashmir, military confrontation begins. Pak retaliates in Bhuj and attacks across international borders towards on Bhuj, Bikaner, Jodpur axis.
Week 3 - Pak overcomes IA in Bikaner and moves towards Jalandar and Chandigarh
Week 4 - Front lines begin to stabilize as India is shocked at losses
Week 5 - Ceasefire. India demands Pak retreat with promises of holding elections in Kashmir
Week 6.... (you tell me)

@PanzerKiel how did I do?

Strategies that made this victory possible.

1. Combined arms operation with a meaningful fixed wing CAS working organically via PAA with armoured divisions. See this link1 and link 2 and link 3.
Also use of armed UAVs.
2. An enlarged army using conscripts creating 10 new divisions (this could easily be even 20 new divisions). This was done at minimal cost with 2nd hand SKS from China, T-59 tanks upgraded similar to Zarrar, old 155mm towed artillery and investment in wheeled APCs. One possible innovation is to use mortar guns similar to those mounted on Russian BMP3s. These act nearly like artillery but are cheaper to produce, use and transport. Basically its a sweet spot between an artillery gun and a mortar.
These conscript divisions did the following:
a) held Western borders allowing PA and paramilitary forces to focus on the East
b) held the Coast allowing Pak marines to focus more on Bhuj
c) Held defensive positions and relieved attacking PA formations allowing PA to use its more professional forces to go forward with their attacks.

Regarding Bhuj there are actually 6 different vectors from which Pak is attacking:
1. the sea - small numbers of navy commandos / marines
2. Landbridge fromd Badin axis
3. Karunjhar over the lake (hovercraft)
4. Karunjhar around the lake
5. Heliborne
6. Paratroopers.

Where are you @Signalian I think you may like this : )

Keeping in view lack of access to real military info and being non familiar with military planning processes, i believe you have produced a fair enough effort within these limitations.

My take
-Formulation of military plans is a difficult process. Starting from conception (the stage at which you right now), then you do a terrain analysis using detailed maps specifically made for that purpose (not google maps) helped further by months of detailed ground recces where you actually go on ground to see whats its really like. You then go through the logistical planning which tells you that till which location or radius your op can be supported.
- Then you go through tactical appreciation where you actually plan your operation after selecting a suitable objective from a list, based on separate through analysis.
-You then factor in the responses and defences of the enemy into your plan. Your original plan will get ammended based upon factors of ground, weather and enemy. Once that embryonic plan is ready, you war-game it (for both sides).
- Following the above mentioned process, you go through all the options available for you to take EACH objective, and then decide which one is best for you.

I originally planned to analyze EACH of your post, but then i thought to present some solid guidelines which can help you in future.

Again, point for consideration. All military plans have a great thought process behind it. One cannot outrightly negate it unless you have gone into matching details and staff work.

 

[Armchair]

Keeping in view lack of access to real military info and being non familiar with military planning processes, i believe you have produced a fair enough effort within these limitations.

My take
-Formulation of military plans is a difficult process. Starting from conception (the stage at which you right now), then you do a terrain analysis using detailed maps specifically made for that purpose (not google maps) helped further by months of detailed ground recces where you actually go on ground to see whats its really like. You then go through the logistical planning which tells you that till which location or radius your op can be supported.
- Then you go through tactical appreciation where you actually plan your operation after selecting a suitable objective from a list, based on separate through analysis.
-You then factor in the responses and defences of the enemy into your plan. Your original plan will get ammended based upon factors of ground, weather and enemy. Once that embryonic plan is ready, you war-game it (for both sides).
- Following the above mentioned process, you go through all the options available for you to take EACH objective, and then decide which one is best for you.

I originally planned to analyze EACH of your post, but then i thought to present some solid guidelines which can help you in future.

Again, point for consideration. All military plans have a great thought process behind it. One cannot outrightly negate it unless you have gone into matching details and staff work.

Always a pleasure to learn from you Panzerkiel Looking forward to seeing more of your posts on PDF.

@ali_raza saw your posts about Jasailmer and Bhuj, thought you may like this thread.

 

[ali_raza]

Always a pleasure to learn from you Panzerkiel Looking forward to seeing more of your posts on PDF.

@ali_raza saw your posts about Jasailmer and Bhuj, thought you may like this thread.

thanks buddy for the mention this topic is music to my eyes lol

As Indian I Corps retreats towards Jaipur, Pakistani V Corps pushes from behind. Meanwhile, with the road open to New Delhi, Indian X torps moves to protect the Indian capital and all possible reinforcements are sent.
View attachment 623553

Indian X Corps and reinforcements to protect New Delhi meets Pakistani XII Corps but this leaves only Indian II Corps facing Pakistani IX Corps and two divisions of conscripts, who now go on the offensive.

Meanwhile, Pakistani XXXI Corps and II Corps, one with mechanized division and the other with armored division attack the gap between Indian II Corps and X Corps. Facing nearly 4 Pakistani Corps including mechanized and armoured divisions, a large number of Indian II Corps is flanked and surrounded, rest retreat towards Faridkot.

as i mentioned in another thread taking bilaner is key.its just 90 km from ourr border with just one obstacle indra canal.
this can open up soo many new fronts for india

 

[Armchair]

thanks buddy for the mention this topic is music to my eyes lol


as i mentioned in another thread taking bilaner is key.its just 90 km from ourr border with just one obstacle indra canal.
this can open up soo many new fronts for india

if you read through my posts that is exactly what I war gamed here! And look what I did with the advantage of attacking Bikaner!

starts from post #106

 

[ali_raza]

if you read through my posts that is exactly what I war gamed here! And look what I did with the advantage of attacking Bikaner!

starts from post #106

yea i just did and i must say it’s brilliant
but on a larger scale we need huge reinforcements to support multiple fronts
we would need political support
financial backing
and material support
i flouted the idea of joining yemen war fully to grab those missing pieces from gulf arabs.
or even better if we negotiate well enough for afganistan this time around to have a neutral USA who gives us atleast a breathing space while we try pushing indians.
war is very tricky business

 

[Armchair]

yea i just did and i must say it’s brilliant
but on a larger scale we need huge reinforcements to support multiple fronts
we would need political support
financial backing
and material support
i flouted the idea of joining yemen war fully to grab those missing pieces from gulf arabs.
or even better if we negotiate well enough for afganistan this time around to have a neutral USA who gives us atleast a breathing space while we try pushing indians.
war is very tricky business

That was a missed opportunity but the Yemen war opportunity still exists. Here are some other short cuts I've thought of:

1. Conscription. 200,000. Pakistanis are patriotic to their country and want to defend her. I wouldn't be surprised is one gets more volunteers than conscripts if a call to arms is made.

2. Type 59 Tanks upgraded roughly to Zarrar configuration. 1000 units. Many thousands are lying in storage in China.

3. SKS rifles for the new constript troops. Full auto is not really useful in war and is a major source of ammo wastage for inexperienced troops. SKS would again come from already retired Chinese stock. They have a milled receiver so are very tough and have chrome lining. Does not need mags and can use stripper clips. I would be surprised if friendship prices from China for an SKS with bandolier would cost more than $10-$15 in bulk.

4. 1000 BMP2s from Eastern Europe. Upgrade the turret with the BMP3 120mm gun-mortar and you basically have a light tank / heavy APC

5. Towed artillery 155mm from NATO old stock. Convert to self propelled (wheeled) qty??

6. RPK for squad SAW, G3 for sniper / DMR

7. Low cost close air support (fixed wing). See https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/a-diy-drone-cas-aircraft-for-the-paa-concept.656964/
But that is a radically cheap solution. A less radical (and less low cost) solution would be to use an aero piston engine.

 

[ali_raza]

That was a missed opportunity but the Yemen war opportunity still exists. Here are some other short cuts I've thought of:

1. Conscription. 200,000. Pakistanis are patriotic to their country and want to defend her. I wouldn't be surprised is one gets more volunteers than conscripts if a call to arms is made.

2. Type 59 Tanks upgraded roughly to Zarrar configuration. 1000 units. Many thousands are lying in storage in China.

3. SKS rifles for the new constript troops. Full auto is not really useful in war and is a major source of ammo wastage for inexperienced troops. SKS would again come from already retired Chinese stock. They have a milled receiver so are very tough and have chrome lining. Does not need mags and can use stripper clips. I would be surprised if friendship prices from China for an SKS with bandolier would cost more than $10-$15 in bulk.

4. 1000 BMP2s from Eastern Europe. Upgrade the turret with the BMP3 120mm gun-mortar and you basically have a light tank / heavy APC

5. Towed artillery 155mm from NATO old stock. Convert to self propelled (wheeled) qty??

6. RPK for squad SAW, G3 for sniper / DMR

7. Low cost close air support (fixed wing). See https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/a-diy-drone-cas-aircraft-for-the-paa-concept.656964/
But that is a radically cheap solution. A less radical (and less low cost) solution would be to use an aero piston engine.

why sks we bought type56 for 80$ a pop from chinese stockes
and boys were over joyed with its quality

 

[Armchair]

Armed UAV - Bayrakhtar TB2 equivalent made locally. Seems effective enough relatively cheap.

why sks we bought type56 for 80$ a pop from chinese stockes
and boys were over joyed with its quality

SKS would be cheaper. Has a milled receiver over the Type 56. But I think both / either would work. One could even have a few of both.

I prefer the SKS for inexperienced troops as there is no full auto mode, meaning overenthusiastic cannot just waste ammo. Loading with stripper clips means their bandolier loadout is cheaper.

Typve 56 with mags and carriage - probably 100 USD per solider
SKS - $10-15 20 at best. Saving money and saving ammo from wastage.

Between the SKS is slightly more accurate than the AK47 with a longer barrel and milled receiver. This means it has slightly better range.

No mag also means less weight. This means relatively inexperienced conscripts will have an easier time carrying the same quantity of ammo

 

[ali_raza]

That was a missed opportunity but the Yemen war opportunity still exists. Here are some other short cuts I've thought of:

1. Conscription. 200,000. Pakistanis are patriotic to their country and want to defend her. I wouldn't be surprised is one gets more volunteers than conscripts if a call to arms is made.

2. Type 59 Tanks upgraded roughly to Zarrar configuration. 1000 units. Many thousands are lying in storage in China.

3. SKS rifles for the new constript troops. Full auto is not really useful in war and is a major source of ammo wastage for inexperienced troops. SKS would again come from already retired Chinese stock. They have a milled receiver so are very tough and have chrome lining. Does not need mags and can use stripper clips. I would be surprised if friendship prices from China for an SKS with bandolier would cost more than $10-$15 in bulk.

4. 1000 BMP2s from Eastern Europe. Upgrade the turret with the BMP3 120mm gun-mortar and you basically have a light tank / heavy APC

5. Towed artillery 155mm from NATO old stock. Convert to self propelled (wheeled) qty??

6. RPK for squad SAW, G3 for sniper / DMR

7. Low cost close air support (fixed wing). See https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/a-diy-drone-cas-aircraft-for-the-paa-concept.656964/
But that is a radically cheap solution. A less radical (and less low cost) solution would be to use an aero piston engine.

those italian pieces we bought were pristine condition like box packed never shot a round in anger.
we hust need to grab the rest of chunk they have and some more here and there m109 is best arty for our theater
a low coast stucka like bomber or roughly like A10 warthog is required in large quantities like500 pieces
so we can properly support our ground invasion
drones r another equipment we need in huge numbers actually the more the better
since we r doing our own thing we need 1000 ucav to constantly pave the way and soften up targets while our manned air crafts folow and behind them is our cavilary
above all we need a c4i management system which controls and guids minutest alterations and details of battlefield
we need AI system soo advanced that it actually makes different possible scenarios and our planners chose feom it.
its all much much easy in 21 century
and chinese lead the world in this
all we need is a resolve to actually decimate the enemy
not being happy with shooting down ine bogey and leaving a chance to shoot down 20 more and possibly killing the COAS

Armed UAV - Bayrakhtar TB2 equivalent made locally. Seems effective enough


SKS would be cheaper. Has a milled receiver over the Type 56. But I think both / either would work. One could even have a few of both.

I prefer the SKS for inexperienced troops as there is no full auto mode, meaning overenthusiastic cannot just waste ammo. Loading with stripper clips means their bandolier loadout is cheaper.

Typve 56 with mags and carriage - probably 100 USD per solider
SKS - $10-15 20 at best. Saving money and saving ammo from wastage.

Between the SKS is slightly more accurate than the AK47 with a longer barrel and milled receiver. This means it has slightly better range.

No mag also means less weight. This means relatively inexperienced conscripts will have an easier time carrying the same quantity of ammo

we have our own stock of millions of enfield rifles of brit times we gave to mujs too during afghan war.