What's new

Concept Design of a CAS Aircraft For The Needs Of Pakistan Military

Manticore

RETIRED MOD
Jan 18, 2009
10,122
112
18,050
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
The following key characteristics / roles have been identified:

1. Vertical/Short Takeoff and Landing (VTOL/STOL).
2. Be able to withstand a burst of up to 12.7 caliber weapons in vital areas. Be invulnerable to small arms fire. Kevlar panels used for armoring.
3. Be able to carry up to 6 TOW or Hellfire or similar weapons for a stand-off anti-armour role.
4. Have a 12.7 mm main gun with about 500 rounds of ammunition.
5. Capable of flying at exceedingly low speeds and maintaining high manoeuvrability at such speeds. Speed range of 10 mph to 200 mph.
6. Ability to operate at night. FLIR.
7. Run on diesel.
8. Turbo Prop single engined aircraft.
9. Have provision for flare cartridges, effective RWR, basically a good passive and active deco arrangement, to counter man-portable SAMs
10. Ease of maintenance and a basic low-cost solution.



To make Short Takeoff and Landing (STOL) possible from unprepared strips, it is proposed that the aircraft have an angled wing and an angled propeller

Another proposition is to have large, very low aspect ratio, thick and slightly forward sweeping wings (by about 5 degrees). This has shown to decrease take offs and landings as well as enable even slower flight (while maintaining agility and maneuver). This will also help towards condition 5, particularly towards the kind of agility required for Nap of the Earth flight. Lastly, the aircraft should have a strengthened under-carriage, landing gear with large low pressure tires and air brakes.

Mounting the wings high would give great visibility for the ground attack role and will aerodynamically provide better streamlining for cruising, provide more lift at less drag for climb and glide efficiency. Clearance will also be better and a useful attribute in semi/unprepared landing strips.

The use of composite armor and new materials like Kevlar should make protection against up to .50 caliber weapons easier. The wing design characteristics of thick, low-aspect ratio wings should also ensure greater survivability.

The attached diagrams illustrate sketches of such an aircraft. A more conventional design along the lines of the IL-2 is an alternative design possibility

Some Explanations and thoughts on this idea:


In reality, my idea is not really geared for the future war that the US will fight, where there is less of a need for a "cheap" solution, I'm gearing my work towards a "medium weight" power - ranging from China to Eastern Europe to South Africa to Brazil to the more controversial Indian Subcontinent. Most such armies would end up dedicating most of their air assets to the A2A war, as high tech (and expensive) aircraft are better employed winning the air war first. my solution attempts to create a cheap solution that "Army Aviation" can use while the air force can focus on other things. Further, the heart of my idea is to solve the disjoint between ground forces and air operations. "support" remains support, whether its oversimplified to blowing up stuff or to destroying enemy communications and channelizing his advance or retreat; the crucial element is that the vital information as to where the enemy is and what the course of action should be is channelized to the air unit, which is constructive but also limiting - it limits the ability of the pilot to improvise and be proactive with the battlefield, which in fact, they are never really trained to do or have the necessary wherewithal for - combat pilots fly too fast and stay in the vicinity for too less a time to have a real ground level feel of the battlefield. This is not just a technical problem but is rooted in doctrine and most importantly, real logistics. That's what I am trying to solve

The biggest problem I actually see with this is vulnerability from enemy air defence. Something like what I have proposed, flying in good numbers are always likely to be vulnerable, no matter how tactically innovative you are. Good ejection are always an advantage though...
Grande Strategy: 21st Century Combined Arms Operations: Integrating an Air Component

1 comment..
A quick look at what most gunship helos carry will tell you that unguided rocket pods and cannon fire still have a place on the modern battlefield. With laser guided kits for unguided rockets you can have an appropriate weapon for most CAS targets. The reality is that most ATGMs have too much penetration and not enough blast and fragmentation effect for most targets on the battlefield other than tanks. Most countries in the world today don't have a large supply of well armoured tanks and those that do are not likely to be using their forces against an enemy well equipped with such vehicles. Therefore having ATGMs that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars is a waste of money. A guided rocket that costs a few thousand dollars and has a warhead able to deal with a wider range of targets makes much more sense.
Equally the 50 cal HMG with 50 rounds is just silly. To effectively use such a weapon you need to get within 50 cal range, and once you are in 50 cal range of them they are within 50 cal or 57 cal or 23mm range of you... they will always win that fight.
At least with a cannon on board you can rely on shell power rather than kinetic energy. For example the HE shell for most 20mm cannon is effective at any range because it relies on HE power for effect rather then velocity. This means you can start firing at area targets at long range, which makes your fire platform safer and more likely to survive.
 
Last edited:

Manticore

RETIRED MOD
Jan 18, 2009
10,122
112
18,050
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
jf17 will be used in cas role by paf....i would like a discussion on what important features are looked for by paf for such an aircraft...?

do u guys agree with the first 5 points by the auther

1. Vertical/Short Takeoff and Landing (VTOL/STOL).
2. Be able to withstand a burst of up to 12.7 caliber weapons in vital areas. Be invulnerable to small arms fire. Kevlar panels used for armoring.
3. Be able to carry up to 6 TOW or Hellfire or similar weapons for a stand-off anti-armour role.
4. Have a 12.7 mm main gun with about 50 rounds of ammunition.
5. Capable of flying at exceedingly low speeds and maintaining high manoeuvrability at such speeds. Speed range of 10 mph to 200 mph.

Does jf17 meet some of these points?
 
Last edited:

satishkumarcsc

SENIOR MEMBER
Nov 26, 2008
2,632
0
1,388
Country
India
Location
India
jf17 will be used in cas role by paf....i would like a discussion on what important features are looked for by paf for such an aircraft...?

do u guys agree with the first 5 points by the auther

1. Vertical/Short Takeoff and Landing (VTOL/STOL).
2. Be able to withstand a burst of up to 12.7 caliber weapons in vital areas. Be invulnerable to small arms fire. Kevlar panels used for armoring.
3. Be able to carry up to 6 TOW or Hellfire or similar weapons for a stand-off anti-armour role.
4. Have a 12.7 mm main gun with about 50 rounds of ammunition.
5. Capable of flying at exceedingly low speeds and maintaining high manoeuvrability at such speeds. Speed range of 10 mph to 200 mph.

Does jf17 meet some of these points?
JF is a mid tech component of PAF. I think a slower moving aircraft will be more useful. The PA can rather ask for the A-10 instead of using the JF...and i prefer CAS aircrafts to be under the command of the army rather than the air force.
 

Super Falcon

ELITE MEMBER
Jul 3, 2008
14,038
-4
5,333
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Arab Emirates
i dont think so it will be vertical landing for sure becoz it costs more and paf cant invest more in 3 gen fighter jet
 

TOPGUN

PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST
Jun 6, 2006
8,284
1
7,592
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
JF is a mid tech component of PAF. I think a slower moving aircraft will be more useful. The PA can rather ask for the A-10 instead of using the JF...and i prefer CAS aircrafts to be under the command of the army rather than the air force.
A-10 are no longer in for a offer to us ! they perhaps were in the past but we didn't go for it cuz we wanted the f-16's for multirole and now after the gulf war the Americans know wat the A-10 is capble of they will never offer it to us. :coffee:
 

satishkumarcsc

SENIOR MEMBER
Nov 26, 2008
2,632
0
1,388
Country
India
Location
India
A-10 are no longer in for a offer to us ! they perhaps were in the past but we didn't go for it cuz we wanted the f-16's for multirole and now after the gulf war the Americans know wat the A-10 is capble of they will never offer it to us. :coffee:
Then the K8 fitted with god ground support equipments will be far better than using JF 17s in CAS role...better armoured single seat K8 is better than the JF 17.
 

Arsalan

THINK TANK CHAIRMAN
Sep 29, 2008
18,216
65
23,454
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
call me old fashioned.... but for Kashmir and Taliban terrain and threats... we need something like the A-1Skyraider.

c9f83efb25608269946984bd3401b49e.jpg

i bet it wont cost less than a heavy machine gun round as it will easily bring it down!!:lol:
i wont call you old fashioned, but yes, we have moved to mre modren times now!! ;)
i guess you understand!

take care,
:cheers:
regards!
 

PAFAce

SENIOR MEMBER
Jan 7, 2009
1,637
0
2,153
jf17 will be used in cas role by paf....i would like a discussion on what important features are looked for by paf for such an aircraft...?

do u guys agree with the first 5 points by the auther

1. Vertical/Short Takeoff and Landing (VTOL/STOL).
2. Be able to withstand a burst of up to 12.7 caliber weapons in vital areas. Be invulnerable to small arms fire. Kevlar panels used for armoring.
3. Be able to carry up to 6 TOW or Hellfire or similar weapons for a stand-off anti-armour role.
4. Have a 12.7 mm main gun with about 50 rounds of ammunition.
5. Capable of flying at exceedingly low speeds and maintaining high manoeuvrability at such speeds. Speed range of 10 mph to 200 mph.

Does jf17 meet some of these points?
Point 1 is not really useful unless you have US Marine Corps/Royal Navy type needs. No professional Air Force uses STOVL aircraft, they impose sever limitations without offering much in return. They are only a necessity if you have limited runways and limited dedicated resources.

Points 2-4 I won't comment on, since they seem pretty obvious.

Point 5, well, the standard flight envelope has two axes, speed and altitude. The best CAS aircraft would be low and left on this envelope (low speed and low altitude), and to optimize for this, you give up your top-right corner (high speed and high altitude). True Multirole Combat Aircraft are optimized for the middle, i.e., mid-speed and mid-altitude, making them not-the-best in any dedicated role, but still very useful in all roles.

When you have limited resources, like Pakistan does, the best option to achieve high levels of all-round competence is going the MRCA way. When you have many resources, such as the US, you can go for these luxuries.

Therefore, the JF-17, since it is an MRCA, is not the ideal CAS aircraft, but its still useful. The A-10 is probably the best modern dedicated CAS aircraft, but I could be wrong on that. The K-8 can be used for part-time CAS, but it will be a sitting duck for more modern jets. If we deploy the K-8, we'll need fighters to provide escort. A fleet of deadly gunship helicopters is probably the easiest/cheapest way to build up good CAS capability.
 
Last edited:

nightcrawler

FULL MEMBER
Sep 10, 2008
1,400
0
337
Well I will say that we cannot & can never in the near future can build a plane solely for CAS. I willnt start a versus thread b/w SU-25 & A-10 both of which are deadly in CAS support as they purely were meant for that...However today the rules of game dictates that instead of CAS fighters one must deploy
* excessive UCAVs plus
*use of APS upon tanks & armoured vehicles.

Above two things will work in the modern era of extremely intelligent anti-tank missiles
 

Aamir Hussain

PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Jan 28, 2007
1,881
23
3,178
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
K-8 can and should be used for ground attack role as it is a well suited platfrom for COIN type of ops. we are currently engaged in.
 

SBD-3

ELITE MEMBER
Sep 19, 2008
15,034
-9
7,904
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
K-8 can and should be used for ground attack role as it is a well suited platfrom for COIN type of ops. we are currently engaged in.
If i can recall the an old post of Murad sahib, his openion was prop based platforms are best for CAS as they have better loitering capability than jet engine due to fuel efficiency. He was suggesting to take out the old prop models and let the retired pilots use them as the new pilots may not be familier with the platform
 

nightcrawler

FULL MEMBER
Sep 10, 2008
1,400
0
337
If i can recall the an old post of Murad sahib, his openion was prop based platforms are best for CAS as they have better loitering capability than jet engine due to fuel efficiency. He was suggesting to take out the old prop models and let the retired pilots use them as the new pilots may not be familier with the platform
Even propellers can achieve in excess of 0.8Mach speed**; so this is a good provision...

Compressibility at this stage can play havoc with propeller blades...decisions had to be made
 

jamal18

SENIOR MEMBER
May 15, 2008
2,376
1
2,367
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Kingdom
My 2 cents.

1.STOL on grass/ unprepared landing strips. VTOL totally unnecessary.

2. Fuel and critical underside capable of withstanding a hit from 20mm AA gun (standard AA gun).

3. Standard pylons for normal loads. ( a/tk missiles, bombs etc).

4. Essential 30mm built in canon for anti-tank work.

5. Nothing flies at 10 mph, but capable of low speeds.

6. Essental twin engine prop for survivability.

7. Easy maintenance and low cost.

The next step for the pakistani aerospace/defense industry is an entirely pakistani designed and built CAS aircraft ( except engine). This will maintain the momentum to develop this industry.

The large imbalance in land forces, particuarly in armour and artillery, mean this aircraft is desirable. This will also help strategic mobility, army resources being moved rapidly. ( It has to be under army contrlol).
 

Mech

BANNED
Mar 26, 2011
3,161
-5
3,652
Country
India
Location
Slovenia
Hi,
My knowledge is limited but wouldn't CAS- Close Air support be better if it were a rotory wing and not fixed? I know the CAS requires detailed integration of each air mission with fire and movement of friendly forces on the ground. I feel CAS can only be maintained with close proximity. My understanding is that there are no reliable true VTOL aircrafts at present. But wouldn't it be better if VTOL aircraft programme were accelerated to specifically aid in CAS missions?
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)

Top