A Question Of Moral

[Windjammer]

Without Chest Thumping, kindly answer the following.

India and Pakistan both deploy professional armies, the Indian security forces are at most facing separatists and insurgency movements, while Pakistani forces are in a virtual war against well armed and trained terrorists. The alternate casualty figure also explains the ferocity of battle heat each army is facing. Soldiers world over are known to suffer from stress of duty and battle fatigue. This dilemma is known to lead the individual going to extreme measures by taking his own life. The Indian army is also prone to such cases, where a soldier has turned the gun on himself and sometimes even towards the fellow colleagues. If stress and fatigue were the only causes for a soldier to commit suicide, then it's suffice to say, in the present circumstances, Pakistani soldiers must be operating under one of the most hostile environment, yet, in recent times, no such drastic loss has been suffered by the Pakistan Army. Could this be due to how these soldiers are mentally and physically trained and prepared, I will not mention patriotism since every soldier is a patriot for his country. We have several serving and retired Military Personal on this forum, their input on the subject will be highly valuable and appreciated.

 

[amidamaru]

i do not think this is a troll thread... he obviously has a thought... and wants peoples ideas on it all...

this is not trolling...

in answer to this guys... question


i dont know

 

[third eye]

did you mean Morale ?

 

[Windjammer]

i do not think this is a troll thread... he obviously has a thought... and wants peoples ideas on it all...

this is not trolling...

in answer to this guys... question


i dont know

Thanks for that, obviously it's easy for some to digress than digest.

 

[Green Hornet]

Without Chest Thumping, kindly answer the following.

India and Pakistan both deploy professional armies, the Indian security forces are at most facing separatists and insurgency movements, while Pakistani forces are in a virtual war against well armed and trained terrorists. The alternate casualty figure also explains the ferocity of battle heat each army is facing. Soldiers world over are known to suffer from stress of duty and battle fatigue. This dilemma is known to lead the individual going to extreme measures by taking his own life. The Indian army is also prone to such cases, where a soldier has turned the gun on himself and sometimes even towards the fellow colleagues. If stress and fatigue were the only causes for a soldier to commit suicide, then it's suffice to say, in the present circumstances, Pakistani soldiers must be operating under one of the most hostile environment, yet, in recent times, no such drastic loss has been suffered by the Pakistan Army. Could this be due to how these soldiers are mentally and physically trained and prepared, I will not mention patriotism since every soldier is a patriot for his country. We have several serving and retired Military Personal on this forum, their input on the subject will be highly valuable and appreciated.

Actually, paksitani army is answerable to no one, it can shoot first and think later.

But life of an indian soldier is much difficult, he has to think first and shoot later. Indian army knows its enemies and their support structure but the thing is that indian govt. pathetic vote bank policy is holding army's hand.

You see the difference here, knowing an enemy and not being able to eliminate him(indian army) is far more frustrating than shooting indiscriminately and not needing to reply anyone(pakistani army).

Add poor work condition, fatigue and not able to eliminate its enemies to this frustration and you will get an angry soldier. I mean when a soldier knows that it can't kill an enemy, he will get frustrated as he doesn't know why is his giving life for. Indian political class has failed its soldiers.

I think both the armies are highly well trained and professional, its just that indian army operates with a hill of after thoughts on its head.

 

[MastanKhan]

Windjammer,

Thank you----thank you for opening this thread. Soldiers are people too.

 

[amidamaru]

i think green hornets answer is pretty good

 

[Windjammer]

Actually, paksitani army is answerable to no one, it can shoot first and think later.

But life of an indian soldier is much difficult, he has to think first and shoot later. Indian army knows its enemies and their support structure but the thing is that indian govt. pathetic vote bank policy is holding army's hand.

You see the difference here, knowing an enemy and not being able to eliminate him(indian army) is far more frustrating than shooting indiscriminately and not needing to reply anyone(pakistani army).

Add poor work condition, fatigue and not able to eliminate its enemies to this frustration and you will get an angry soldier. I mean when a soldier knows that it can't kill an enemy, he will get frustrated as he doesn't know why is his giving life for. Indian political class has failed its soldiers.

I think both the armies are highly well trained and professional, its just that indian army operates with a hill of after thoughts on its head.

I know where you are coming from, however, if PA was all gung ho, i am sure it wouldn't be suffering as many casualties, this is not to say, all those killed by PA were bad guys, in the heat of the battle, it's impossible to avoid collateral damage, but as for restrictions on IA, you can not deny the fake encounter episode in this regard. just my two cents.

 

[Green Hornet]

I know where you are coming from, however, if PA was all gung ho, i am sure it wouldn't be suffering as many casualties, this is not to say, all those killed by PA were bad guys, in the heat of the battle, it's impossible to avoid collateral damage, but as for restrictions on IA, you can not deny the fake encounter episode in this regard. just my two cents.

Can't this "heat of the battle" and "collateral damage" theory applied to the indian soldiers as well??

Also, no body is denying fake encounters, all these occur due to reasons mentioned in my previous post, happens in india, happens in pakistan, happens everywhere. In india though, this issue is raised few times in the year by the separatists to incite anger among people to get shot more so that the kashmir issue remains burning. This fake encounter theory by separatists have been debunked many times in the past as well.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

let me quote my class fellow who is actually in the field right now.. he is an SSg major

"TTP are using AP bullets and they never use them sparingly, I have seen injuries to my men and my fellow officers but I praise the personal of my medical corps that look after us so well that soldiers and officers cant wait to come back in the field."

this chap was talking life and death as a matter of fact. but was completely upbeat and confident
he was praising the CAS of our Army aviation as well.... at no point he mentioned any fatigue due to stress or losses. they just increase the resolve of our fine men.

he says that their discipline, their faith and the moral code forbids them to exhibit the dead terrorists .. otherwise the world would have know what happened to TTP that used to roam openly in Sawat (thanks to our Judiciary & politicians) but now finds no safe place in Pakistan but is having to live in Afghanistan.

Actually, paksitani army is answerable to no one, it can shoot first and think later.

with all due respect my dear I beg to differ
even before the WoT... the army personal have had to stand civil or military trial. and in recent times.. from the provincial high courts to the Supreme court judges are on the case of the army.

if we were that trigger happy then Pak Afghan border would have been littered with Afghan refugee dead bodies.

please give your hatred a rest before commenting. and do think before you write.
learn something from Indian soldier. if he can think before shooting then of course it should be easier for you to think before writing?

 

[Windjammer]

Can't this "heat of the battle" and "collateral damage" theory applied to the indian soldiers as well??

You missed my point, it can happen and does happen in many battles, there is no excuse about it.

Also, no body is denying fake encounters, all these occur due to reasons mentioned in my previous post, happens in india, happens in pakistan, happens everywhere. In india though, this issue is raised few times in the year by the separatists to incite anger among people to get shot more so that the kashmir issue remains burning. This fake encounter theory by separatists have been debunked many times in the past as well.

The reason for mentioning fake encounter was that no army plays by the book, hence the reason for a soldier to take his own life just because he can't shoot his enemy wears pretty thin....wouldn't you agree. !!

 

[Shardul.....the lion]

Pakistanis wishful answer to this thread is,

Pakistani soldiers are professional, disciplined brave martial race and so have good morale
and Indian soldiers are unprofessional coward and so dont have good morale and take their own life and others life.

SO windjammer, I have given you answer exactly what you expect.

 

[Bhairava]

I think both the armies are highly well trained and professional, its just that indian army operates with a hill of after thoughts on its head.

Exactly --

Not as trolling, but I would like to mention that the Director General of CRPF would have had his head hung up the pole if regular kidnap-kill-dump cases like in Balochistan had occurred anywhere in India.

The motley group of Activists, NGOs, leftists,media would have been baying for his head and unlike the FC, the CRPF is not that politically powerful to resist any investigation against it.

Also almost all cases of fratricide have been with paramilitary forces and rarely with the Indian Army itself and even in cases of Indian Army what Green Hornet suugests loooks like the most feasible.

It has nothing to do with the internal mental makeup of the soldier, but the various external forces that he shouldn't think while operating, but is forced to think, that causes these problems.

I know where you are coming from, however, if PA was all gung ho, i am sure it wouldn't be suffering as many casualties, this is not to say, all those killed by PA were bad guys, in the heat of the battle, it's impossible to avoid collateral damage, but as for restrictions on IA, you can not deny the fake encounter episode in this regard. just my two cents.

Fake encounters happen in all insurgencies -- India is not an exception --

 

[hunter_hunted]

Actually, paksitani army is answerable to no one, it can shoot first and think later.

But life of an indian soldier is much difficult, he has to think first and shoot later. Indian army knows its enemies and their support structure but the thing is that indian govt. pathetic vote bank policy is holding army's hand.

You see the difference here, knowing an enemy and not being able to eliminate him(indian army) is far more frustrating than shooting indiscriminately and not needing to reply anyone(pakistani army).

Add poor work condition, fatigue and not able to eliminate its enemies to this frustration and you will get an angry soldier. I mean when a soldier knows that it can't kill an enemy, he will get frustrated as he doesn't know why is his giving life for. Indian political class has failed its soldiers.

I think both the armies are highly well trained and professional, its just that indian army operates with a hill of after thoughts on its head.

Ok sunshine If what u just said that "Pakistan army pull the trigger first and think later " is true, than how the hell are Americans and NATO are sitting in Afghanistan . Pakistan army just need to press the trigger and send the welcome missiles to Afghanistan on their posts and annihilate them. But we not seeing this . So tell me from where u r thinking now a days FROM UR **** or is it IndiaTV that is doing the THINKING job for u.

 

[Dark Warrior]

Pakistan army busily hides its suicide among its troops.Acc to my sources in Small War journals(SWJ) dozens of PA soldiers are killed in fratricide and suicide each year.BUT PA passes them of as killed in insurgent attacks or accidents Morever my relative when posted in poonch witnessed a Pakistan ranger firing on colonel of PA and other soldiers before killing himself in 2007.
Even US army and Royal army have suicide rates exceeding 20 per 100000,Indian Army has a rate less than 10 per 100000.