A New Freedom Struggle For India

[Joe Shearer]

I don't know what you mean, leftist ideologies and Islam are like Hinduism and Islam. Not compatible with each other. But some self-hating Muslims think if they align with the lefties, they will get some influence in the West. But this is stupid and counterproductivce.

Actually, he was referring to the opposite: well-meaning left liberals aligning with violence-promoting Muslims.

 

[Vikram1]

So instead of "hiding a characteristic" about one particular religion you are singling out one particular religion when that same characteristic applies to all religions?

Every one need to highlight name of the culprit. But you can't understand the fake secularism going on India since Nehru's time. Why do you think people explode about it now?

Just one image for you to understand all this.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Was feeling left out...

Thanks for the tag. Always a pleasure to be reminded of the intellectual quality of this forum that rarely displays itself.

Sorry for the omission. Have included you in the list now.

 

[Prince Kassad]

A nation finally chooses what Majority feels right, Majority feel right with things they are comfortable and they need be the right things all the time. A great read, I could educate myself little bit on this topic. I am from India and moved to USA for good, the way I know India soul and soil is – even after all these politics, even if there is no word in constitution – deep down in our heart we are secular, again majority of us are secular. Not that we are born like that, we grow up like that – but that notion should be coming from all religions of that soil. Once they see it – Politics won’t matter much.

 

[Microsoft]

Every one need to highlight name of the culprit. But you can't understand the fake secularism going on India since Nehru's time. Why do you think people explode about it now?

Just one image for you to understand all this.

I don't read Hindi so I can't verify what that is actually saying. Fake secularism part I agree with.

 

[xeuss]

Every one need to highlight name of the culprit. But you can't understand the fake secularism going on India since Nehru's time. Why do you think people explode about it now?

Just one image for you to understand all this.

It's actually more like this - When the criminal is a Muslim, his name is mentioned. When the criminal is a Hindu, the name is not important.

 

[Vikram1]

It's actually more like this - When the criminal is a Muslim, his name is mentioned. When the criminal is a Hindu, the name is not important.

Okay live in delusion that still people can be fooled in the age of social media by this fake secularism. You are helping BJP by all these. So I must say keep doing it.

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

10 JP Darbari media is a source of misinformation not the social media. Their ability to built fake narrative destroyed by social media in last decade.

Social media is both good and bad. More often good reports get ommitted and fake one gets popularised to create chaos instances are many. Even educated people falls for that so much for educated.

 

[xeuss]

Okay live in delusion that still people can be fooled in the age of social media by this fake secularism. You are helping BJP by all these. So I must say keep doing it.

So Hindus are so insecure that they vote for BJP because of some headlines? Confirms that people that vote for the BJP are stupid.

 

[ps3linux]

Exactly, BJP-RSS sold the people a Dream; a prospect of a different more prosperous India where it's citizens would be living glamorous lives, perhaps on par with the West.


This being the region it is, the masses are gullible, uneducated and unassuming; the perfect kind of target for manipulators like RSS-BJP axis.


These gullible beings asked merely one question :

If India has the potential to be a prosperous nation, why are we poor ? Why are we still backward and underdeveloped.


And here came the killing blow, BJP drawing inspiration from history and RSS pointed towards and channeled the people's hatred towards the Muslims and the other minorities.

They scapegoated them.


These people are the reason India is backward, help us come to Power, we will cleanse the land clean of this affliction.


But what the masses didn't realize was that the Muslims were selected due to RSS's convenience and because they can be easily targeted and eliminated with little to no international outcry.


RSS came to power and fulfilled their mission of marginalising Muslims, all in one masterful stroke.



If it wasn't such an abhorrent and disturbing reality, I would tout it as one of the greatest acts of voter manipulation in the history of mankind.


Manipulative politicians who stop at nothing, a gullible backward population, an audacious dream, a thirst for cruel (in)justice, helpless & meek scapegoats and a world where Muslims are public enemy #1; a recipe for genocide and human travesty.


An unholy concoction.

Agreed totally, I have differences when it comes to what people of Bangladesh say say about history, particularly your PM but when I look at her strategy of ensuring a stake for underprivileged in modern Bangladesh I admire her, perhaps other factors contributed but hanging those JI people was the best thing that I really appreciated.

India has its own dynamics, if, there is a big if India continues to exist in its present form soon BJP will have to answer to the people that besides marginalizing minorities, deteriorating relationship with all neighbors, international credibility issues what has it done for the common man.

To add another point to the earlier one I made. Secularism in the subcontinent also takes the meaning of using governing authority to control religion. This originated with the interference in religious customs during the British Raj. The Sati Regulation XVII of 1829, which first banned the immolation of widows, was intended to show that reform within religion was a duty of the state. This attitude has continued throughout modern India. From the framers of the constitution to the judicial edicts, the control of religion is an important concept that serves to curtail religious inspired cruelty.

The recent Supreme Court judgement on Triple Talaq was another such example. The debate was not whether it was permissible according to Islamic law, but that it was the duty of the state to intervene on behalf of citizenry to prohibit such "religious inspired cruelty".

While principally I agree with your point but control of religion started probably with Aurangzeb or earlier, despite understanding music is not only a part of Indian culture but has a strong affiliation with religion this guy banned musical instruments across the country. Although it was not to promote secularism.

British tried with a stick but honestly we as people are extremely intolerant despite whatever law, last day was ready about a court case in south India over the ownership of an elephant both are hindu communities, both consider elephant as their deity but the huge difference is what Tilak should be painted on the elephants forehead a "Y" or a "T"

In my opinion state should enact laws which discourage use of religion in politics, governing, economy and the job market. Religion is an individual matter, however the reverse should also be true religious freedom should be ensured for all but no laws should be enacted promoting one sect or religion over the other.

Both of you have added significant value to this discussion, and I am really appreciative.

Also the lurking @xeuss, who, to my shame and embarrassment, I did not include in my original tag-list.

Someone very respectable asked for that list, and with the additions of those whom I had left out, it is there to be used asap.

another learned gentleman who should be on your list when you want to discuss topics where lot of "mental exercise" is required is respected @R Wing

Anyways, while India of today and Pakistan of yester years have parallels they both differ about the root causes, for us yes the root cause was poverty but for us the seeds of dissent were foreign sponsored although the religious community was the tool and mouthpiece once we realized that who these people stand for, how much they respect the country, its people it was all downhill for them and uphill for us to climb out of the gutter, some notable incidents were Swati mullah announcing he doesn't acknowledge Pakistani Law, its constitution, parade lane attack, attack on church in Peshawar and the last straw APS.

For India the problem is homegrown I don't know how to separate RSS from religious fraternity of India the agenda was definitely power but economic dream in a religious plate is a very dangerous menu particularly on a hungry stomach.

Something I wrote 10 years or more back:

"One does tend to ask a question here how come every fanatic (the foot soldier) belongs to the poor families, why haven’t we heard that Gen Akhtar Abdur Rehman’s son became a Jihadi, why Gen Zia’s didnt become a Jihadi, why Mullah Fazlur Rehman’s son didnt become a Jihadi, why Naseerullah Khan’s Son didnt become a Jihadi, why didn’t their children serve the cause of islam, why didn’t they embrace Shahadat. Instead why their children opted to become industrial and real estate tycoons, how come the people who used to come to offices on bicycles, their children became tycoons, where did the money came from."

and this one:

"It has been an irony of human history that whenever people of certain mindsets find like minded groups, cults, sects etc they become self righteous and with little success arrogant and then representative of the divine hand and people not of their believes as ignorant and liable to be made extinct from the face of the earth."

 

[Vikram1]

So Hindus are so insecure that they vote for BJP because of some headlines? Confirms that people that vote for the BJP are stupid.

If that makes you feel better so be it.
But reality is that BJP is not going anywhere for long time as far as central government is concern.
And BJP is going to get control in south India very soon. Not even entire decade required for this cause.

 

[Joe Shearer]

besides marginalizing minorities, deteriorating relationship with all neighbors, international credibility issues what has it done for the common man

 

[Joe Shearer]

Okay live in delusion that still people can be fooled in the age of social media by this fake secularism. You are helping BJP by all these. So I must say keep doing it.

And, of course, coming onto a Pakistani forum and making silly, defensive remarks with no foundation helps BJP win elections.

Keep doing it, until you are banned.

 

[Joe Shearer]

last day was ready about a court case in south India over the ownership of an elephant both are hindu communities, both consider elephant as their deity but the huge difference is what Tilak should be painted on the elephants forehead a "Y" or a "T"

This is off-topic but I couldn't help responding. It is hilarious.

This is a famous legal controversy, between two sub-sects, the Vadagalai and the Thengalai - northern faction and southern faction, among the Tamil Brahmin Iyengars, who are Vaishnavite (followers of Vishnu). The Vadagalai stick to Sanskrit scriptures, specifically, the Vedas, and traditions contained within those; the Thengalai believe that devotional matter - particularly hymns of praise - in Tamil, those, for instance, composed by the great devotees, the Alvars, are equally important.

The Vadagalai caste mark and Thengalai caste mark are subtly different; both have a U-shaped white portion, and a vertical red tilak bisecting that U; the Vadagalai stop the red tilak as it touches the white, the Thengalai continue it beyond. My sympathies are with the Thengalai, who reject caste and who accept into the fold of Srivaishavism all who accept the idea that salvation is purely the gift of God; the Vadagalai believe that salvation is indeed the gift of God, but has to be earned. However, this is my personal secret; my in-laws are Vadagalai.

The dispute was over which caste mark the temple elephant should wear. Behind this laughable symbolical battle lay the control over the rich and powerful temple that was involved. After some 32 years of litigation, the exasperated judge then hearing the case ruled that the poor beast should wear the two variations on each alternate day in turn!

 

[niaz]

What is happening in India today nothing is more than a manifestation of “Majoritarianism”. India has 80% Hindu population and even after one excludes 30% Dalits, the mainstream Hindus, being 50% of the population, are sufficient in number to always win a majority in the Lok Sabha.

While Democracy is arguably the best system of government, such a lopsided situation was bound to lead to majoritarianism wherein the majority population attains primacy in the society and has the final say in determining the kind of policies the country would adopt.

Mahatma Gandhi & the early Congress party had probably foreseen this danger and gave the task of writing the Indian Constitution to a Harijan Dr. Ambedkar, in order to ensure an ‘Inclusive’ India. Dr. Ambedkar included some provisions such as quota in jobs and that the minorities could have their own schools (article 30) to ensure positive discrimination towards the minorities. Separate personal laws for Hindus & Muslims of 1937 were left intact. Dr. Ambedkar did not include the word ‘Secularism’ in his draft and the word was added in the Preamble through the 42nd Amendment in 1974.

Secularism is a new concept of gov’t, only about 170 years old. The term was coined by George Holyoake who in 1851 proposed separation of state & religion. Secularism means different things to different people. To me, it implies a guarantee for the free exercise of religion for all of the citizens and rejection of religion as a consideration in political and /or civil affairs. The purest form of secularism was perhaps described as’ Laicite’ enacted in France through a law in 1905 which forbids the state interfering in religious affairs and discourages religion influencing State in any form whatsoever.

I would refrain from indulging in the debate started by Rajnath Singh about whether secularism should be translated as ‘Dharma nirpeksha’ or ‘Panth nirpeksha’; I barely understand the terms, let alone the subtle differences in meaning. I will only say that India was never a truly ‘Secular’ state from the start because a classical secular state would not have any discrimination even if it is meant to benefit the disadvantaged segment of the population.

However, until the 1970s, India was a pluralistic multi-ethnic state which many liberals like I think Pakistan also should have been.

"Appeasement of Muslims by the Congress” was one the slogans employed by the BJP to harness the underlying resentment of high caste Hindus against the preferential treatment of minorities enshrined in the Constitution into supporting their cause. This is evident from the fact the cow vigilantism, beef row, Durga Puja-Muharram row in Bengal (Ashura & Idol Immersion rite of the Durga Puja fell on the same day) and similar issues, have consistently increased the popularity of BJP & Hindutva. Nevertheless, BJP remained a fringe party until the 1970s primarily because the Congress leaders of the first 30 to 40 years truly believed in ‘Indian nationalism’ and it was the culture, not the religion that determined ‘Indian-ness’.

Early leaders like Pundit Nehru correctly considered Hindu communalism to be India’s top enemy. Perhaps because Nathuram Godse of RSS, the ideological wellspring of Hindu nationalism, murdered Mahatma Gandhi in 1948. Early Congress party leadership therefore
refrained from communal politics and the occasional communal riots were dealt with even-handedness.

Metamorphism of the Congress into a family fiefdom during Indira Gandhi's leadership changed all that. The fact that Congress members could not find an indigenous Indian political leader and instead elected the Italian wife of Rajiv Gandhi, whose only qualification was that she was the daughter-in-law of the Nehru family, to lead them is beyond my comprehension.

So what is to be done to remedy the situation?

In my opinion, it’s not realistically possible to keep religion and communal life completely out of politics in a society where people’s identity and character are shaped in large part by the religion. This realization has also dawned on the leadership of the supposedly secular Congress party and they are slowly adopting some of BJP policies to win votes. Hence there is not a whole lot that can be done in the immediate future.

Even though an affluent populace does not imply automatic secularism or tolerant society
but freedom to worry about how to ensure bread on the table every day of the week more often than not would loosen the grip of religious bigotry in the man on the street. Improvement in the educational level of the public, especially in the liberal arts, also helps to inculcate a tolerant attitude towards strangers.

Therefore, unless either the Congress or some other non-Hindutva party such as AAP quickly comes with a truly charismatic & visionary leader capable of breaking BJP’s hold on power; we would have to wait until the Indian economy improves to such an extent that ordinary Indian man on the street can enjoy a standard of living and standard of education equal to the present-day Western European nations.