A nation in denial

[Agnostic_Indian]

Criticism is the highest form of flattery - yes, friends, it is the highest form of flattery -- Criticism is distinguished from hate speech because it is always reasonable, truthful and caring.

I would urge readers to see that if Pakistan is a nation in denial, about how the most promising Muslim majority country in the world came to be seen as a basket case by it's own citizenry - we can fix all this, we can set it right (for a while, because setting things right is a constant work, a work in progress)

Please never be affraid of criticism, welcome it, it is flattering to be criticized, because it show the depth of care of relevance, of purpose and meaning - so don't be affraid of it, welcome it and fix, right the wrong, it will only make Pakistan stronger and stronger.

According to you..what is the greater threat pakistan faces.. Do you think role of religion in state matters to be reduced ?
do you think pakistan should rethink about kashmir policy.. or is it impossible for civilian govt to do it even if they wish to do so ?
do you think short time army rule with genuine effort can do things faster ?

 

[somebozo]

According to you..what is the greater threat pakistan faces..
India No1 and Talibans no2.


Do you think role of religion in state matters to be reduced ?
Secularism has been a fail in Turkey even though it is in third generation of secular founding. You expect muslims living in a muslim majority country natrually expecting to be governed under some form of Islamic shadow. Religon has not been a problem is Pakistan. Goons like taliban, TTP, mullahs and indian exported jamat e islami are.


do you think pakistan should rethink about kashmir policy.. or is it impossible for civilian govt to do it even if they wish to do so ?
Kashmir is a muslim majority area hence our favourism towards them will not die. It is integral for our security and vitality. it is the wish of Pakistan Gov to see Kashmir as either independent state of semi-autonomous under Pakistani defence umbrella.

do you think short time army rule with genuine effort can do things faster ?
Yes only if the feduals are circumcised and education is bought main stream. If Mushy lasted 20 year this might be a geniune possibility.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

2 months old, was worth reading then. Is worth reading now. A bit general and broad but covers all the right bases. We are in denial on many things, and on some we are reaching transcendence.

Even Marlow's hypotheses states that a people cannot reach self actualisation until the "hierarchy of needs" are achieved! Rather than saying a "Nation" in denial i feel the title should be a "people in denial" and a "leadership in tatters".

It's like Vegas people "free for all".

 

[Bhim]

2 months old, was worth reading then. Is worth reading now. A bit general and broad but covers all the right bases. We are in denial on many things, and on some we are reaching transcendence.

Even Marlow's hypotheses states that a people cannot reach self actualisation until the "hierarchy of needs" are achieved! Rather than saying a "Nation" in denial i feel the title should be a "people in denial" and a "leadership in tatters".

It's like Vegas people "free for all".

Paladin, nation is its people.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

Paladin, nation is its people.

The first requirement for the definition is that the characteristics should be shared—a group of people with nothing in common cannot be a nation. Because they are shared, the national population also has a degree of uniformity and homogeneity.

And finally, at least some of the characteristics must be exclusive—to distinguish the nation from neighbouring nations. All of the characteristics can be disputed, and opposition to secessionist nationalism often includes the denial that a separate nation exists.

Primordialism argues that those shared characteristics have an ancient root, and nations are natural phenomena over different historical eras.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

The first requirement for the definition is that the characteristics should be shared—a group of people with nothing in common cannot be a nation. Because they are shared, the national population also has a degree of uniformity and homogeneity.

And finally, at least some of the characteristics must be exclusive—to distinguish the nation from neighbouring nations. All of the characteristics can be disputed, and opposition to secessionist nationalism often includes the denial that a separate nation exists.

Primordialism argues that those shared characteristics have an ancient root, and nations are natural phenomena over different historical eras.

What are you saying ? Pakistanis has got nothing common to became a nation ? I did not get it.
look at india we have little in common still we are united as a nation.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

What are you saying ? Pakistanis has got nothing common to became a nation ? I did not get it.
look at india we have little in common still we are united as a nation.

Well just answered ur own question. The rally cry is a common identity. Just looj at pakistan, hey are u pakistani? No I'm pathan, punjabi, sindhi, baluchi. Give it a rest mate. Problem is many in pakistan are still divided on who or what they are. Hence they form a loose collective, a group of people but not a nation.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Well just answered ur own question. The rally cry is a common identity. Just looj at pakistan, hey are u pakistani? No I'm pathan, punjabi, sindhi, baluchi. Give it a rest mate. Problem is many in pakistan are still divided on who or what they are. Hence they form a loose collective, a group of people but not a nation.

I don't think many in pakistan wilt share your thoughts. if asked while abroad by a foreigner our first answer will be ' im indian '. I guess others are just multiple identities hindu,muslim,punjabi,kashmiri,casts,family names,languages, etc but prominence is always given to nationality. If some body from my state (Kerala) ask special statues or autonomy for what ever reasons i will kick his a$$.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

I don't think many in pakistan wilt share your thoughts.

And that is why WE are in DENIAL!

 

[genmirajborgza786]

And that is why WE are in DENIAL!

true but say a step like reducing the gap economicaly between the rich & poor is more of a threat think from where dose the TTP comes from i mean one to be in a very hard spot financial vice to blow himself knowing some good lumsome will be given to the one's he/she left behind the complex disparity which exits between the govt school students vis a vis the private Gcse/Igcse/O&A level student let alone the privileged ones of the abroad for degree/diploma types prince & princess if this gap can be minimised with a strong public school Education system which have a strong and valuable education standards could do wonders by bringing in "Unity" among the youngsters then one can start by effectively reducing gap between the "Haves" and "Have-Nots starting from the pooer to lower income ranks to lower middle class to middle class to upper middle calss to the executive class to the business classes to executive business classes to elite business classes to
the privileged elite upper executive business classes to the industrialists to civil bureaucrats to feudal elite ,military bureaucracy to the corporate class will get if not 60% then atleast 50% of the problems faced @ present solved
as for the ethnic/sectarian issues there is always politics to play ones cards well .

hope this helps
regards

 

[Tuahaa]

Sorry, post edited. See below

 

[Tuahaa]

For some reasons Indians always seem to experts on this 'issue'.



Anyway, I don't really share the same thoughts as the one in the article. I think, like most human beings, I share some nationalism and pride about my country- I'm not in 'denial'. I know what Pakistan may have become.

I was in Oman and we were buying some roasted camel meat (tastes quite nice- try it!) and the seller happened to be a Baloch who was offered an Omani Passport after Balochistan was sold to newly formed Pakistan. The people of Oman are quite simple and poor and this seller had a tent for a shop. The omani government set up these tents for anyone to use. Nearby, there was this Indian dude (who came over to the shop) and while we were discussing the floods with the Balochi, that Indian man said "Pakistan was supposed to be more successful than India"...

My father, just wanting to hear his opinion, asked the Indian man "Tell me your opinion on Pakistan's lack of 'taraki' (conversation was in Urdu, I am translating)". He pretty much repeated what most Indians criticize about pakistan, but he said something else that was very interesting-

"In India, much worst things happen. But we hide it and make it look beautiful. Pakistan needs to do that."

I don't know why he admitted that... but my question is- What do you Indians think about this? If you want to use an anti-pakistani article as 'criticism', what exactly do you expect us to say? Just like this man says, in India, much worst things happen. Do you see us posting every single article about it? No, because we aren't jealous!

 

[Jackdaws]

For some reasons Indians always seem to experts on this 'issue'.



Anyway, I don't really share the same thoughts as the one in the article. I think, like most human beings, I share some nationalism and pride about my country- I'm not in 'denial'. I know what Pakistan may have become.

I was in Oman and we were buying some roasted camel meat (tastes quite nice- try it!) and the seller happened to be a Baloch who was offered an Omani Passport after Balochistan was sold to newly formed Pakistan. The people of Oman are quite simple and poor and this seller had a tent for a shop. The omani government set up these tents for anyone to use. Nearby, there was this Indian dude (who came over to the shop) and while we were discussing the floods with the Balochi, that Indian man said "Pakistan was supposed to be more successful than India"...

My father, just wanting to hear his opinion, asked the Indian man "Tell me your opinion on Pakistan's lack of 'taraki' (conversation was in Urdu, I am translating)". He pretty much repeated what most Indians criticize about pakistan, but he said something else that was very interesting-

"In India, much worst things happen. But we hide it and make it look beautiful. Pakistan needs to do that."

I don't know why he admitted that... but my question is- What do you Indians think about this? If you want to use an anti-pakistani article as 'criticism', what exactly do you expect us to say? Just like this man says, in India, much worst things happen. Do you see us posting every single article about it? No, because we aren't jealous!

Hide it? I think most Indians feted abroad wear the poverty of India like a badge of honor. You look at the movies of Satyajit Ray or the works of that over-rated author Naipaul - they merely reinforce Western stereotypes of India.

 

[Tuahaa]

Hide it? I think most Indians feted abroad wear the poverty of India like a badge of honor. You look at the movies of Satyajit Ray or the works of that over-rated author Naipaul - they merely reinforce Western stereotypes of India.

What I am about to say is merely my opinion.

I think what this man means is that India has very little bad publicity even if it were deserved. I have lived in a western country for most of my childhood and it is a very rare occasion that India is criticized on western media, while Pakistan and in extension Muslims (as you may be aware) are unfairly criticized openly on public TV. What I mean is that, for example, widow burnings and exile that widows have to go through in India does not appear once on the media while a woman wearing a hijab is labelled a 'oppressed being' twice a week (no joke). The western media is not prepared to listen to our opinion; infact, they are not prepared to listen to any Muslim woman's opinion unless it is one who has grown up being told that Islam oppresses her (i.e. in a western country) and hence speaks negatively about it.

Another example is the Bhopal Gas Leak. I understand that it had gained a bit of publicity recently but the disaster occurred many decades ago.

Good day, I am going out to buy a Shalwaar Kamees for eid

 

[Anonymous_Clown]

What I am about to say is merely my opinion.

I think what this man means is that India has very little bad publicity even if it were deserved. I have lived in a western country for most of my childhood and it is a very rare occasion that India is criticized on western media, while Pakistan and in extension Muslims (as you may be aware) are unfairly criticized openly on public TV. What I mean is that, for example, widow burnings and exile that widows have to go through in India does not appear once on the media while a woman wearing a hijab is labelled a 'oppressed being' twice a week (no joke). The western media is not prepared to listen to our opinion; infact, they are not prepared to listen to any Muslim woman's opinion unless it is one who has grown up being told that Islam oppresses her (i.e. in a western country) and hence speaks negatively about it.

Another example is the Bhopal Gas Leak. I understand that it had gained a bit of publicity recently but the disaster occurred many decades ago.

Good day, I am going out to buy a Shalwaar Kamees for eid

"Widow Burning" as you call it, no longer happens in India - that practice vanished decades ago. You need to get your facts right before typing. 99% of all criticism against India on defence.pk is like this - simply false propaganda. India has several faults, but most of the time I see Pakistani members here bringing up totally wrong and unjustified points.

And remember - Indian media and Indians are the biggest critics of India. Most recent example - just look at the expose of the corruption in the CWG. It is Indians who ferret out negative aspects of administration and scream it out for the world to hear. What "hiding" is that Omani fellow talking about?? Yeah, he might have been right 20 years back, but certainly not now!

India may have many faults, but we are very self-critical. From what I have seen so far, Pakistanis do not seem self-critical and self-examining. The focus seems to be more on conspiracy theories and externalization of blame. Just when I thought I'd heard everything, the latest I hear is blaming a different country for FLOODS.

Unbelievable.