A look at Israel's "Iron Dome" missile defense

[Solomon2]

 

[IceCold]

At the end of the day its saving Israeli lives and that is what matters. I have said before and i will say it again Hamas is idiot. They know that Israel will dish them out on any given day given the sophistication of technology they have and the money to keep pouring more. Why the f@ck do they have to fire rockets into Israel and the poor people of Palestine pay the price.

 

[Developereo]

RAM and ESSM are very impressive systems, but there is no evidence that they were tested against a salvo of supercruise missiles.

Also RAM and ESSM protect point object, while Iron Dome provides areal protection, defending 150 km2 territory.

Lockheed Martin · Lockheed Martin and Navy Mark Another First with Aegis-Guided ESSM Missile Flight

The system can simultaneously track hundreds of targets while defending against multiple incoming aircraft, missiles, submarines, torpedoes and attacking ships and automatically implementing defenses to protect the fleet.

How hard do you think it is to define the concept of 'fleet' to be a 150 km2 area?

And, yes, I know you will say this is just marketing spiel, but I already provided the link to the earlier system by Raytheon RIM-116 which was tested against 'stream attacks'. Do you honestly think NATO would induct 2000 ESSM (RIM-162) missiles in an Aegis system which can be fooled just by firing a salvo of attacking missiles?

 

[Solomon2]

Why the f@ck do they have to fire rockets into Israel and the poor people of Palestine pay the price.

Bees wage war by sending a lot of drones out to sting the attackers. These are killed but are often an effective deterrent. The drones are willing to pay the price because they are helping to protect their queen who reproduces with near-identical genetic duplicates. Drones think nothing of doing anything for themselves as individuals.

This is the model of "we love death" Hamas' Palestinian society. Gazans have lots of kids - paid for by foreign aid - and are willing to throw their lives away by suicidal actions. The parents often respond to the death of their children (whether by the hand of Arabs or Israelis) by having another, giving him the same name, and even pretending the previous child never existed. Mohammed al-Dura's parents are the prime example. Hamas leaders also offer a subsidy (paid for with foreign aid) to the family members of Arabs who are imprisoned and a pension to those whose relatives are killed.

As long as the world - including Israel - is willing to feed and tolerate this beast I see no reason why the current state of affairs won't continue. Invasion and regime change may change matters in the short run but long term requires additional re-education and - for lack of a better word - de-nazification. Israel isn't going to make that kind of investment and while the UNRWA has the infrastructure and budget to do so I can't imagine it can change its approach without a wholesale cleanout of its management and personnel.

 

[500]

Lockheed Martin · Lockheed Martin and Navy Mark Another First with Aegis-Guided ESSM Missile Flight

The system can simultaneously track hundreds of targets while defending against multiple incoming aircraft, missiles, submarines, torpedoes and attacking ships and automatically implementing defenses to protect the fleet.

How hard do you think it is to define the concept of 'fleet' to be a 150 km2 area?

Its installed on many ships thats how it protects the fleet.

And, yes, I know you will say this is just marketing spiel, but I already provided the link to the earlier system by Raytheon RIM-116 which was tested against 'stream attacks'. Do you honestly think NATO would induct 2000 ESSM (RIM-162) missiles in an Aegis system which can be fooled just by firing a salvo of attacking missiles?

There is no evidence that it was tested against a salvo of supersonic targets.

I believe that if there was a test where it shot down lets say 6 supersonic missiles simultaneously, it would be proudly published.

 

[INDIC]

Its became operational in March 2011.

Here is impact of Iron Dome. In 2006 war Hezbollah fired 4000 rockets killing 56 Israelis. In current encounter Hamas fired 900 rockets which killed 3 Israelis in town not protected by Iron Dome.

Right now Israel has 5 batteries that protect Beersheba, Ashdod, Ashqelon, Netivot and Tel Aviv.

What was the system you using before Iron dome.

 

[Developereo]

Its installed on many ships thats how it protects the fleet.

The ESSM missiles themselves are installed on individual ships, but the Aegis system as a whole is tasked to protect the entire region occupied by the fleet, including submarines.

There is no evidence that it was tested against a salvo of supersonic targets.

I already gave the link to the RIM-116 tests. If you choose not to believe, I am not going to waste any more time.

 

[500]

The ESSM missiles themselves are installed on individual ships, but the Aegis system as a whole is tasked to protect the entire region occupied by the fleet, including submarines.

Thats ur assumption.

I already gave the link to the RIM-116 tests. If you choose not to believe, I am not going to waste any more time.

Again thats your assumption. There are two separate claims there:

1) it was tested against supersonic targets.
2) it was tested against stream attacks.

There is no evidence that it was tested against stream of supersonic targets.

So far you failed to provide any specific example of test against salvo of supersonic missiles/rockets.

 

[gambit]

You are moronic beyond belief.

People who can read English can read the thread and see for themselves how you are making things up out of thin air 'computers operate at the speed of light', and other nonsense to sustain your pathetic 'argument'.

Also, your continuous shifting of goal posts every time your pathetic servitude lands you with egg on your face.

Perhaps you can hire an English tutor to help you read my posts and he/she can explain to you that nowhere did I claim computers operating at the speed of light. However, even an English tutor will not be able to help you climb out of the ditch you have dug yourself into following your blind need for servitude.

You mean like this...

Yawn. You write as if people don't understand the speed of light or the processing speed of modern computers.

My English is just fine. Fine enough to teach foreigners and see through your pretensions and exposed your ignorance.

Post 31 is there for all to read. Every can also read how you, with your pathological hatred of Muslims, dragged Muslims into this thread for no reason.

I criticized YOU prior to post 31. It was you in post 31 who dragged me into the Israeli camp. It is your pathological hatred for the Jews that you could not stand any remotely favorable comments for the Jews that ended with that 'servile' comment about me.

Yes, we know you get away with racism on this board, which is why you continue to indulge in it.

How? Show me a single post where I used racist slurs against the Chinese members here the in the same vein that got so many of them suspended.

All your servile babbling and attempts at irrelevant distraction will not change the basic fact that a missile which can detect and try to evade the interceptor will be harder to hit than one which can do neither.

I am enjoying your desperate dash all over the board to salvage your indefensible position. The shifting goal posts which are your specialty are also entertaining.

I already gave the links on ESSM and RIM-116 RAM. Why don't you tell us what new significant capability ID adds which is not already provided by these earlier systems.

Foundational principles are 'irrelevant' and are 'distractions'. Good to know how you behave when cornered by your own ignorance.

 

[Developereo]

You mean like this...

My English is just fine. Fine enough to teach foreigners and see through your pretensions and exposed your ignorance.

No, your English skills are as bad as your thinking skills.

The comment was about the speed of light (radar detection) and the computations needed (processor speed) to compute trajectories and make other decisions.

How in God's name you managed to graduate high school with such a horrible grasp of English comprehension is a mystery to all.

I criticized YOU prior to post 31. It was you in post 31 who dragged me into the Israeli camp. It is your pathological hatred for the Jews that you could not stand any remotely favorable comments for the Jews that ended with that 'servile' comment about me.

Wrong again. It is YOU who attacked me first because your ingrained prejudice makes you feel that anyone who does not gush like you must be against Joos. The pathetic canard of crying anti-Semitism when running out of arguments is so old that it simply washes off.

YOU, on the other hand, have a documented record right here of being an unapologetic bigot and Islamophobe.

YOU believe it is legitimate to nuke Mecca and Medina and to starve all of Saudi Arabia.

YOU are on record as stating that Muslim citizens in Western countries do not deserve the same rights as their fellow citizens.

YOU stated right here that Muslims behave as a collective entity.

YOU are pissed because I exposed your deeply seated bigotry against all Muslims.

How? Show me a single post where I used racist slurs against the Chinese members here the in the same vein that got so many of them suspended.

I will point it out the more serious cases when you do it again -- and you will -- but for now, even in this thread earlier, you referred to the Chinese as 'boys'. You always refer to them as 'boys'. I know you will feign innocence or ignorance, but if you even dare to refer to black men around you in real life as 'boys', you will get your as$ kicked so hard, I will hear it all the way in Australia.

Foundational principles are 'irrelevant' and are 'distractions'. Good to know how you behave when cornered by your own ignorance.

Simple question: all other things being equal, is a missile capable of detecting and avoiding its interceptor harder to hit than one which doesn't have that capability?

Answer simply without seeking refuge in irrelevancies.

 

[gambit]

No, your English skills are as bad as your thinking skills.

The comment was about the speed of light (radar detection) and the computations needed (processor speed) to compute trajectories and make other decisions.

Yes, essentially you criticized the Iron Dome system because computers operate at the speed of light, as if the ID's computers operate with something else.

How in God's name you managed to graduate high school with such a horrible grasp of English comprehension is a mystery to all.

Mystery only to you. Certainly not with many who are wise enough to stay out of subjects that they do not have experience with, took my advice and do their own research, and learned something new. Unlike you.

Wrong again. It is YOU who attacked me first because your ingrained prejudice makes you feel that anyone who does not gush like you must be against Joos. The pathetic canard of crying anti-Semitism when running out of arguments is so old that it simply washes off.

Yes, I criticized YOU and your arguments. Not the muslims at large.

Kind of moronic to compare the latest hi-tech system against decades old, antiquated rockets which are little more than catapulted firecrackers.

What a pathetic attempt at a jab at Israeli engineering. Kinda like criticizing expensive body armor because a bullet is much less expensive.

No one is asking that you heap praises, but if you are going to criticize, do it with credible technical arguments and analogies. You failed.

YOU, on the other hand, have a documented record right here of being an unapologetic bigot and Islamophobe.

YOU believe it is legitimate to nuke Mecca and Medina and to starve all of Saudi Arabia.

YOU are on record as stating that Muslim citizens in Western countries do not deserve the same rights as their fellow citizens.

YOU stated right here that Muslims behave as a collective entity.

YOU are pissed because I exposed your deeply seated bigotry against all Muslims.

Make sure you have those...ahhh...'documents'...

I will point it out the more serious cases when you do it again -- and you will -- but for now, even in this thread earlier, you referred to the Chinese as 'boys'. You always refer to them as 'boys'. I know you will feign innocence or ignorance, but if you even dare to refer to black men around you in real life as 'boys', you will get your as$ kicked so hard, I will hear it all the way in Australia.

I call the Chinese members here 'boys' because their immaturity deserves it. You and they cannot dispute my defense that I was initially polite and respectful in my challenges to their claims. You cannot deny intense racial hatred they dispensed at me and the other Viet members here when they learned of what we are. Neither you nor they can find a single post from me where I used a common racial/racist epithet. Strain away...

Simple question: all other things being equal, is a missile capable of detecting and avoiding its interceptor harder to hit than one which doesn't have that capability?

Answer simply without seeking refuge in irrelevancies.

See post 71 which is relevant to this discussion.

To sum it up...

The Iron Dome system -- to your deep sorrow -- succeeded at reducing damages and deaths to the Israelis. So you had to minimize its technical achievements in any way you can, which is bringing out other weapons systems that were/are designed for other scenarios.

It is absurd.

The Iron Dome system is an innovation, not an invention. It is an air defense system at the principle level, which is where you are taking refuge when you found out how ignorant and technically deficient your criticisms really are. It has many commonalities in intents with any other air defense systems out there. But the details that make one air defense system effective against cruise missiles are different in designs and executions than that for ballistic warheads. Unitary weapons do not have the same behaviors as dispensed warheads. I tried to explained to you on post 71 on how you are wrong when you asserted that these descending rockets do not maneuver and it went whoooosh over your head. Those details are irrelevant because you do not understand them, refused to learn, and refused to admit you are wrong.

 

[Developereo]

Yes, essentially you criticized the Iron Dome system because computers operate at the speed of light, as if the ID's computers operate with something else.

Still trying to hide behind that moronic misinterpretation of my sentence, eh?
I love it, because it shows your desperation.

Mystery only to you. Certainly not with many who are wise enough to stay out of subjects that they do not have experience with, took my advice and do their own research, and learned something new. Unlike you.

Oh, I learned something new all right. Your new dance of desperation, complete with gambit-English when all else fails.

Yes, I criticized YOU and your arguments. Not the muslims at large.

Wrong. You claimed that Muslims, collectively, are motivated by anti-Semitism.

No one is asking that you heap praises, but if you are going to criticize, do it with credible technical arguments and analogies. You failed.

No. I gave specifics of existing systems and challenged you to find me any new capabilities that ID provides over those systems.

You failed.

Make sure you have those...ahhh...'documents'...

Oh those threads are here on this forum.

The US military academy course about nuking Mecca, Medina, and starving all of Saudi Arabia. Everyone, from Obama to Clinton to the top US military leaders distanced themselves from the course and the author. Most Americans on this forum distanced themselves from it. But YOU continued defending it as a legitimate option.

Again, when discussing civil rights, including free speech, in Western countries, you kept insisting that Muslim citizens in the West should only expect to get rights commensurate with "their home countries". When asked about local converts, second-generation Muslims and others, you did your dance of desperation. When compared with other minorities, you doubled up your dance of evasion and desperation.

The third example of you accusing Muslims of acting with a hive mentality -- a hallmark of bigots and racists -- is in this very thread.

I call the Chinese members here 'boys' because their immaturity deserves it.

Uh huh. Just try that excuse with a black man in real life.

Let me know beforehand, so I don't mistake the resulting sound of foot-on-your-heinie as thunder.

See post 71 which is relevant to this discussion.

To sum it up...

Another speech but no answer to my straightforward question.

All else being equal, is a missile capable of detecting and evading its interceptor harder to hit than one which lacks that capability?

We all know why you are avoiding answering this simple question.

 

[gambit]

Still trying to hide behind that moronic misinterpretation of my sentence, eh?
I love it, because it shows your desperation.

No misinterpretation there, buddy.

Yawn. You write as if people don't understand the speed of light or the processing speed of modern computers.

You tried to downplay the system's success over certain technical difficulties in the most ridiculous argument.

Oh, I learned something new all right. Your new dance of desperation, complete with gambit-English when all else fails.

No. The readers are seeing how you are desperately treading the technical waters. You are in over your head. Your arguments have no credible technical support but assumptions based on ignorance.

Wrong. You claimed that Muslims, collectively, are motivated by anti-Semitism.

Here...

Kind of moronic to compare the latest hi-tech system against decades old, antiquated rockets which are little more than catapulted firecrackers.

What a pathetic attempt at a jab at Israeli engineering. Kinda like criticizing expensive body armor because a bullet is much less expensive.

Pathetic fail on your part. The issue is not about relative cost, but abilities.

Do the rockets have any electronic counter measures? do they have evasive maneuvers? do they have the ability to deploy decoys?

It's like claiming that a tank is a good defence against rocks. Factually true, but hardly a valid comparison.

The pathetic-ness is still on your part. Does a bullet have 'any electronic counter measures? do they have evasive maneuvers? do they have the ability to deploy decoys?' And it is about cost because capabilities incurs money.

Let us stretch your criticism a bit further...Keyword search 'war bullets per kill'...

We have anywhere between 50k to 100k rounds it take to actually hit a target. If we assess cost for each bullet, then it is absurd to equip each soldier or police officer with expensive body armor when the odds of getting hit is so low. And yet body armor is pretty much preferred/requested by every soldier and every police officer worldwide.

How much of a monetary value are you willing to place on training a group of Hamas fighters to clandestinely transport and build each rocket?

Drop the 'THINK TANK' label. It ain't working for you.

I know you are trying to earn your keep by stretching this argument and making it about cost as opposed to capabilities, but no dice.

The quality of a system is measured by its effectiveness against a worthy opponent. You don't sing the F22's praises because it can outperform an F-5.

Federer doesn't beat his chest about beating en elderly matron at Tennis.

Iron Dome works against antiquated 'catapulted' rockets in an environment where the adversaries are hopelessly unmatched, but how would it perform against an adversary who has something more sophisticated?

And, just so you can untie your panties in a knot, note my initial statement where I accepted that Iron Dome is a 'latest hi-tech system', so you can drop your servile appeasement on Israel's behalf.

I said nothing about the muslims in the above exchange. It was YOU, as highlighted, who began the personal attack.

No. I gave specifics of existing systems and challenged you to find me any new capabilities that ID provides over those systems.

You failed.

The failure is on your part for not understanding that there are no new capabilities but success at overcoming CURRENT problems. If it was as easy as using computers that operate at the speed of light......we would have seen similar systems all over the world. Even Pakistan could have developed one.

Oh those threads are here on this forum.

The US military academy course about nuking Mecca, Medina, and starving all of Saudi Arabia. Everyone, from Obama to Clinton to the top US military leaders distanced themselves from the course and the author. Most Americans on this forum distanced themselves from it. But YOU continued defending it as a legitimate option.

How is that any different than when others demand legitimacy in discussing 'nuking' Washington DC or Tel Aviv?

Again, when discussing civil rights, including free speech, in Western countries, you kept insisting that Muslim citizens in the West should only expect to get rights commensurate with "their home countries". When asked about local converts, second-generation Muslims and others, you did your dance of desperation. When compared with other minorities, you doubled up your dance of evasion and desperation.

Insist? Or making comparisons?

The third example of you accusing Muslims of acting with a hive mentality -- a hallmark of bigots and racists -- is in this very thread.

Pretty much how you and others here call Americans slaves to Zionists.

Uh huh. Just try that excuse with a black man in real life.

We are talking about the Chinese. But no matter the targeted ethnicity, I challenge you to find a single post from me that contain a well known racial epithet.

Here is a reference just in case you get lost...

List of ethnic slurs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another speech but no answer to my straightforward question.

All else being equal, is a missile capable of detecting and evading its interceptor harder to hit than one which lacks that capability?

We all know why you are avoiding answering this simple question.

You mean you still do not understand....So let us try again to educate you...Or at least show the readers how you lack critical thinking skills...

Kind of moronic to compare the latest hi-tech system against decades old, antiquated rockets which are little more than catapulted firecrackers.

Pathetic fail on your part. The issue is not about relative cost, but abilities.

Do the rockets have any electronic counter measures? do they have evasive maneuvers? do they have the ability to deploy decoys?

It's like claiming that a tank is a good defence against rocks. Factually true, but hardly a valid comparison.

At the highest level, it is true that a maneuvering attacker will present a more difficult interception algorithm.

However, as I have shown on post 71...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...-iron-dome-missile-defense-5.html#post3623577

An inaccurate and imprecise missile must have maneuvers -- UNWANTED MANEUVERS -- in order to make it inaccurate and imprecise. Without these unwanted maneuvers, how else can these Hamas rockets earned this reputation?

So how does this square with your pathetic attempt to mock Israeli engineering? It does not. You lack critical thinking skills to see where you are wrong even when impeccable technical evidences are presented in front of you. Bringing up other systems, no matter how successful they are, does not help your criticisms. The Iron Dome system is pretty much an indigenous development. It is an innovation that cobbled together current working technologies to overcome a well known problem that plagues designers to this day.

Sounds like petty jealousy to me.

 

[500]

Barrage of Grad rockets intercepted over Beersheba:

"

The final results of the operation:

Total rockets launched towards Israel - 1,506
Iron Dome interceptions - 421
Rockets landed in built up area - 58
Rockets landed in open area - 875
Rockets landed in Gaza itself - 152

Overall Iron Dome success rate - 84%.
Cost or Iron Dome interceptors used - 30 mln $

 

[Developereo]

I was in a forgiving mood in the spirit of Moharram, but then I decided that a Mecca-nuking Islamophobe like you deserves no pity, so here goes...

No misinterpretation there, buddy.

Your hilarious interpretation of this 'speed of light' thing is working beautifully for me, so I will make no attempt to correct you. In fact, I am keeping this gem of gambit-English for future reference.

You tried to downplay the system's success over certain technical difficulties in the most ridiculous argument.

Uh no, I accepted that it works against 'primitive rockets' but questioned its utility against more advanced threats, in light of the fact that Israel is building Magic Wand to handle more advanced threats like cruise missiles. There are existing MD systems elsewhere which handle cruise missiles since 1999.

Result: YOU FAIL

No. The readers are seeing how you are desperately treading the technical waters. You are in over your head. Your arguments have no credible technical support but assumptions based on ignorance.

I am not the one running all round the barn trying to dodge straightforward questions. I am not the one seeking refuge in comical misinterpretations of simple English sentences. I am not the one shifting goal posts.

Result: YOU FAIL

I said nothing about the muslims in the above exchange. It was YOU, as highlighted, who began the personal attack.

Oh, I am loving this!
Your own series of quotes shows that your very first sentence in this thread was a personal attack at me.

Moreover, you are the one who first mentioned Israel in our exchange. I simply made a comment about the technical disparity between the threat and the defence. You made it about Israel because of your need to view a purely technical comment through the prism of anti-Semitic victim-hood.

The attack on Muslims came with the accusation about a Muslim "collective" in this post: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...-iron-dome-missile-defense-4.html#post3618911

Even other Americans here, presumably non-Muslim by their posting history, have called you out on your tendency to bring Muslims into unrelated discussions.

Result: YOU FAIL

The failure is on your part for not understanding that there are no new capabilities but success at overcoming CURRENT problems.

Another shifting of goal posts and another lap round the barn for you. No one has disputed that the Iron Dome system meets Israel's needs. The whole debate has been that ID is some sort of gobal technological breakthrough. The reality is that existing MD systems handle more advanced threats than ID can.

Result: YOU FAIL

How is that any different than when others demand legitimacy in discussing 'nuking' Washington DC or Tel Aviv?

You are so deeply immersed in your hatred of Muslims that you don't even see the difference between nuking a target of military significance, like the Pentagon (DC) or HaKirya (Tel Aviv) on the one hand, and a city of purely religious significance like Mecca. A apt comparison would be if, in response to an American attack (and given the influence of the Christian Right in American politics), the enemy decided to nuke Bethlehem or Vatican City in retaliation.

When every senior American official takes pains to explain that America is not at war with Islam, people like you come along and railroad the whole argument!

Result: YOU FAIL

Insist? Or making comparisons?

Comparisons, only in the context of your deep-seated bigotry against Muslims. You don't see an American citizen who happens to be Muslim; you see a Muslim who happens to be an American citizen.

Your repeated reference of "their home countries" makes no sense for local converts, or Muslims who are born in the West. How, exactly, should their rights be metered out according to "their home country". What is "their home country" for a local-born Muslim?

Result: YOU FAIL

Pretty much how you and others here call Americans slaves to Zionists.

Huge difference between the American government, which does have a well-defined hierarchical control strucutre, aka hive, and 1.2 billion Muslims, who do not.

Result: YOU FAIL

We are talking about the Chinese. But no matter the targeted ethnicity, I challenge you to find a single post from me that contain a well known racial epithet.

I never accused you of using a racial epithet -- you are far too clever for that. If you read my post again, I wrote that you use 'racist speech' and I gave one such example. Some readers here may not understand why calling someone 'boy' would be racist, but you and I both know that it is.

At the highest level, it is true that a maneuvering attacker will present a more difficult interception algorithm.

Bingo! After running round the barn for three pages, you finally accept my point that a system which can intercept a target capable of evasive action is more advanced than Iron Dome. Such systems have been operational since 1999.

Result: YOU FAIL

An inaccurate and imprecise missile must have maneuvers -- UNWANTED MANEUVERS -- in order to make it inaccurate and imprecise. Without these unwanted maneuvers, how else can these Hamas rockets earned this reputation?

So how does this square with your pathetic attempt to mock Israeli engineering?

Because the maneuvers in question are not course-correction maneuvers, but evasive maneuvers. The reference to 'wind gusts' was to show that, if a missile can't even keep itself on course, then evasive maneuvers -- the real challenge to any MD system -- are in a different league altogether. In other words, Iron Dome is only good against primitive rockets which lack advanced capabilities. For those threats, Israel will need Magic Wand.

Result: YOU FAIL

Bringing up other systems, no matter how successful they are, does not help your criticisms. The Iron Dome system is pretty much an indigenous development. It is an innovation that cobbled together current working technologies to overcome a well known problem that plagues designers to this day.

The issue is not whether ID is indigenous, but whether it is a global technological breakthrough. The existing systems are relevant to show that they exceed ID's capabilities, so ID is not a technological breakthrough.

How hilarious that you challenged me ( http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...-iron-dome-missile-defense-4.html#post3619305 ) to provide comparison with other systems and, when the comparison was not favorable, you are now saying other systems are not relevant.

Result: YOU FAIL