A Homeland for Indian Muslims

[padamchen]

The deleted post isn't visible to members anymore so giving you a link wouldn't really help. No warning points from post deletion.

I deleted a few posts that I came across that were getting personal on this thread, yours wasn't the only one.

No warning points when people get a 'soft warning' either.

Ima delete ma own post to see how it works

So yeah, you just get a notification that a post was deleted, with a reason if the mod chooses to offer one (which they should because a poster should know why a post was deleted to avoid repeating the same mistake).

In your case it was the long discussion on Azraful.

@padamchen so yeah. I can see the issue here. Posters just get a basic one line or phrase (like off topic/trolling) as a reason in the alert (if the mod chooses to put a reason in that field), but no text for the post in question. So if you have multiple posts on a thread like this one (which is the case on most threads for most posters) you would have no idea which post was deleted without going back and looking at everything.

Exactly.

Without a phenomenal memory or some really unique standout post, you'd never realize which one got deleted.

Even here I realized coz @Naofumi had quoted it and when I clicked on the up arrow besides my name, it showed tge post no longer existed.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Similar to the disrespect to non Muslim religions like Hinduism and Zoroastrianism (never hear it for any other religion).

Muslims do not have strong opinions of your community. If you were not posting statements against Muslims or Pakistanis, no one here would even know your community existed outside a few areas in Karachi.

Do not take it as anything more than that.

Absolutely.

And there is a significant undercurrent of resentment towards Parsis which comes out when you interact with Sanghis. Same shakha playbook.

Colluded with the British.

Made their fortunes off Opium.

Almost Christian. Almost Muslim.

We gave you shelter. How dare you have an opinion and not toe the shakha line.

Reverse racism ... where we become the Asuras. The Mleccha (most other times its you).

But there is a big difference.

We are not 200 million strong.

And we did not split the country into two.

Also, even though the Sanghis try to "otherize" us valiantly, Hindus by and large (culturally strong and well read ones who drive discourse that permeates top down) recognise that there are strong links between our religions, that predate all other civiliizations and newer Abrahamic faiths.

5000+ years on, EVEN if we (Zoroastrians) are the OOI outcasts after the Battle of the Ten Kings, it still implies that we are the same people.

In comparison to Islam therefore, we are the Brahmin's Brahmins. And we never let them forget that.



Absolutely. Please read the above.

Fascism is illogical, we do not know where the blame game will lead us. I would not be surprised if Parsis were targeted in the future.

I read somewhere that Zoroaster was "appropriated" as an old prophet and Zoroastrians as another Ahl-al-Kitab in the post-Sassanian times.

It's Majusi.

It is a popular opinion for two reasons.

1. Every nation had a prophet according to Muslim belief. In this way, Zoroaster and Buddha are accepted by Muslims, but Allahu alim as to the reality.

2. They are mentioned in Quran 22:17. What is stated is that Allah swt will judge them on Qiyamat.

Interestingly enough Sabians, a related group, are included with Jews and Christians in another place, in which Allah swt says their good deeds will not be wasted, if they now believe in Islam.

The problem, in my opinion, has been for Dharmics in India to differentiate between Muslims and Islamists.

Unfortunately, Pakistan and its actions have deeply coloured India's perception of its own Muslims and made it easy to conflate Muslims with Islamists.

Ultimately, Islamism has damaged everyone including Islam. I'm not a leftist like you jamahir, but what would you suggest as actual, implementable remedial measures to start getting out of this spiral?

Islamism is a meaningless word. It is a concoted one specifically designed to keep Muslims out of politics, hence power.

Add it to the dustbin with the likes of Political Islam. Similarly meaningless and manipulative.

OK, the forum rules are extremely clear on not tolerating personal attacks.

The discussion on certain Indian Muslim members has crossed a line into targeted harassment at this point and will not be tolerated.

If you have concerns about a particular poster, report the post (FYI - as we get the reported posts backlog resolved, we will no longer be responding to moderators being tagged, so might as well get in the habit of reporting a post).

I am glad some action is being taken and rules are becoming stricter. I hope Mods will pass this rule equally throughout the forum as I have a currently unheeded complaint already with being targeted by Joe and Nilgiri in much the same way.

I support this rule. It will help alot in elevating the status of this forum beyond troll wars and personal attacks.

Thanks sir for your time and commitment to the forum.

 

[PradoTLC]

Repeat after me - I will not repeat what you have already said a thousand times.

funny if you were straight all you could have said is yes...

but then again you are an indian...

Do you need a mirror?

no..

but you might

you seem confused.

 

[Joe Shearer]

funny if you were straight all you could have said is yes...

but then again you are an indian...

I have been a member for nearly as long as you, and yet you found it necessary to ask me this demeaning question? Could you not, since this is question and answer time, have found out for yourself what I stand for, answered 'yes' to yourself and moved on? Was it so important to try and trip up an 'Indian' that you had to pull off this elaborate charade?

Think through what you were doing. It is not something to be triumphal about.

funny if you were straight all you could have said is yes...

but then again you are an indian...




no..

but you might

you seem confused.

Of course I am confused. I use logic and reason and it doesn't seem to work. For certain beasts, it is suggested that a carrot and a stick be used. Once the lock-down is done with, it seems I may have to go shopping.

 

[jamahir]

The problem, in my opinion, has been for Dharmics in India to differentiate between Muslims and Islamists.

Unfortunately, Pakistan and its actions have deeply coloured India's perception of its own Muslims and made it easy to conflate Muslims with Islamists.

Ultimately, Islamism has damaged everyone including Islam.

Like @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said, "Political Islam" and "Islamism" are meaningless words.

I first heard "Islamist" on BBC World Service radio many years ago. I believe that word to be an invention of BBC or the British government to confuse people into believing that Islam is all about violence and rigid beliefs.

"Political Islam" is meaningless because Islam is inherently political. In modern sense Islam originally a Leftist movement whose aim was the create welfare states through Progressive socio-economic means.

I'm not a leftist like you jamahir, but what would you suggest as actual, implementable remedial measures to start getting out of this spiral?

I will suggest something that many people on this forum will not like.

The downward spiral among Muslims in India started with increased activism of the Tableeghi Jamaat in the last 15 years. The change was a misunderstanding that Islam is all about prayer, ritual ( fasting etc ), dress code and nothing else. Which is why regular mosque attenders do things like privately lend loans on interest and practice instant triple talaq, all of which is anti-Islamic or non-Islamic. Are the maulanas and the TJ activists bothered ? No.

The immediate, practical step to get out of this downward spiral is to ban the TJ movement in India. The TJ knows this sentiment among some influencers of the central government which is why the chief of the Indian TJ has asked those among his followers who had Corona and recovered, to donate their blood plasma. The donation is not out of empathy but to generate goodwill for the TJ.

If the TJ is declared a banned movement, gradually Indian Muslims will look at the works of those Progressive Indian Muslims decades past who were poets, writers, film technicians who all railed against injustice in the country. This will turn the current mostly insular Indian Muslim community into one which will participate more in real progress of India. For example, they will be able to look and speak about the huge number of farmer suicides in the country and understand why in True Islam interest-based loans are prohibited.

 

[padamchen]

Like @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said, "Political Islam" and "Islamism" are meaningless words.

I first heard "Islamist" on BBC World Service radio many years ago. I believe that word to be an invention of BBC or the British government to confuse people into believing that Islam is all about violence and rigid beliefs.

"Political Islam" is meaningless because Islam is inherently political. In modern sense Islam originally a Leftist movement whose aim was the create welfare states through Progressive socio-economic means.



I will suggest something that many people on this forum will not like.

The downward spiral among Muslims in India started with increased activism of the Tableeghi Jamaat in the last 15 years. The change was a misunderstanding that Islam is all about prayer, ritual ( fasting etc ), dress code and nothing else. Which is why regular mosque attenders do things like privately lend loans on interest and practice instant triple talaq, all of which is anti-Islamic or non-Islamic. Are the maulanas and the TJ activists bothered ? No.

The immediate, practical step to get out of this downward spiral is to ban the TJ movement in India. The TJ knows this sentiment among some influencers of the central government which is why the chief of the Indian TJ has asked those among his followers who had Corona and recovered, to donate their blood plasma. The donation is not out of empathy but to generate goodwill for the TJ.

If the TJ is declared a banned movement, gradually Indian Muslims will look at the works of those Progressive Indian Muslims decades past who were poets, writers, film technicians who all railed against injustice in the country. This will turn the current mostly insular Indian Muslim community into one which will participate more in real progress of India. For example, they will be able to look and speak about the huge number of farmer suicides in the country and understand why in True Islam interest-based loans are prohibited.

TJ is your internal issue.

Why do you want to shoot a potentially inflammatory communal gun off our collective shoulder?

It's an issue for Muslims to sort out among their own.

 

[PakFactor]

Like @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said, "Political Islam" and "Islamism" are meaningless words.

I first heard "Islamist" on BBC World Service radio many years ago. I believe that word to be an invention of BBC or the British government to confuse people into believing that Islam is all about violence and rigid beliefs.

"Political Islam" is meaningless because Islam is inherently political. In modern sense Islam originally a Leftist movement whose aim was the create welfare states through Progressive socio-economic means.



I will suggest something that many people on this forum will not like.

The downward spiral among Muslims in India started with increased activism of the Tableeghi Jamaat in the last 15 years. The change was a misunderstanding that Islam is all about prayer, ritual ( fasting etc ), dress code and nothing else. Which is why regular mosque attenders do things like privately lend loans on interest and practice instant triple talaq, all of which is anti-Islamic or non-Islamic. Are the maulanas and the TJ activists bothered ? No.

The immediate, practical step to get out of this downward spiral is to ban the TJ movement in India. The TJ knows this sentiment among some influencers of the central government which is why the chief of the Indian TJ has asked those among his followers who had Corona and recovered, to donate their blood plasma. The donation is not out of empathy but to generate goodwill for the TJ.

If the TJ is declared a banned movement, gradually Indian Muslims will look at the works of those Progressive Indian Muslims decades past who were poets, writers, film technicians who all railed against injustice in the country. This will turn the current mostly insular Indian Muslim community into one which will participate more in real progress of India. For example, they will be able to look and speak about the huge number of farmer suicides in the country and understand why in True Islam interest-based loans are prohibited.

Blaming TJ is just the excuse used by Sanghis, weren't these TJ's there before partition, etc? They were looking for a fall guy and found one in TJ, had it not been TJ it would have been something else -- hence you can't satisfy them. At the end of the day they have an issue with Muslims and you'd have only two options either stand stead fast and fight them or give in to their wishes

 

[padamchen]

Blaming TJ is just the excuse used my Hindus', weren't these TJ's there before partition, etc? They were looking for a fall guy and found one in TJ, had it not been TJ it would have been something else -- hence you can't satisfy them. At the end of the day they have an issue with Muslims and you'd have only two options either stand stead fast and fight them or convert to whatever the hell they do down there.

Reported for insulting religion.

@AgNoStiC MuSliM should we continue tagging till the backlog is done?

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

The downward spiral among Muslims in India started with increased activism of the Tableeghi Jamaat in the last 15 years. The change was a misunderstanding that Islam is all about prayer, ritual ( fasting etc ), dress code and nothing else. Which is why regular mosque attenders do things like privately lend loans on interest and practice instant triple talaq, all of which is anti-Islamic or non-Islamic. Are the maulanas and the TJ activists bothered ? No.

The immediate, practical step to get out of this downward spiral is to ban the TJ movement in India. The TJ knows this sentiment among some influencers of the central government which is why the chief of the Indian TJ has asked those among his followers who had Corona and recovered, to donate their blood plasma. The donation is not out of empathy but to generate goodwill for the TJ.

If the TJ is declared a banned movement, gradually Indian Muslims will look at the works of those Progressive Indian Muslims decades past who were poets, writers, film technicians who all railed against injustice in the country. This will turn the current mostly insular Indian Muslim community into one which will participate more in real progress of India. For example, they will be able to look and speak about the huge number of farmer suicides in the country and understand why in True Islam interest-based loans are prohibited.

The first part of what you said was completely factual, there is no concept of Islamism or Political Islam in reality. This is due to Islam being a Deen, a way of life, and not merely a ritualistic religion relegated to the private sphere. Islam is a vibrant social and egalitarian movement which influences all spheres of an adherent's lifestyle.

As for Tableegh, rather than joining with RSS who seek to ban it to stifle Muslim religious unity and practice, wouldn't it be more logical to introduce your own concept to rival them?

You cannot begin banning religious movements for preaching in a way you do not like, this is against basic freedom of religion.

Tableegh are not a violent movement, and actually they teach avoidance of politics and political discussion in their gatherings.

They are not a threat to anyone. This is just blatant fear-mongering.

TJ is your internal issue.

Why do you want to shoot a potentially inflammatory communal gun off our collective shoulder?

It's an issue for Muslims to sort out among their own.

Do you realize the alternative to Tabligh? I don't think you Indians realize the repercussions to your demonization of an innocent proselytizing group, which only targets lax Muslims to come to masajid.

The alternative is the kind of uncompromising and firm Islamic ideology like that of the Taliban and what is common in Pakistan and Kashmir. These kind of Deobandi Muslims will not cower nor be soft on their enemies. They also will actively work on converting Non-Muslims to Islam.

Is that the kind of environment you wish to create in India?

Every push will result in an even stronger push back.

Remember that Akbar and Shah Jahan's appeasement of Hindus and persecution of traditional Muslims lead to Sultan Aurangzeb Alamgir RA's ascendancy on the back of Orthodox Muslims.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Blaming TJ is just the excuse used by Sanghis, weren't these TJ's there before partition, etc? They were looking for a fall guy and found one in TJ, had it not been TJ it would have been something else -- hence you can't satisfy them. At the end of the day they have an issue with Muslims and you'd have only two options either stand stead fast and fight them or convert to whatever the hell they do down there.

Post edited from Hindus to Sanghis.

I've pointed this out multiple times - please be careful about how you use the term Hindu/Hinduism when engaging in arguments with Indians. Do not confuse Hindutva, RSS, Sanghis etc with all Hinduism or all Hindus. Extremists exist in every faith and we need to be careful about not making derogatory generalizations about an entire faith.

 

[padamchen]

The first part of what you said was completely factual, there is no concept of Islamism or Political Islam in reality. This is due to Islam being a Deen, a way of life, and not merely a ritualistic religion relegated to the private sphere. Islam is a vibrant social and egalitarian movement which influences all spheres of an adherent's lifestyle.

As for Tableegh, rather than joining with RSS who seek to ban it to stifle Muslim religious unity and practice, wouldn't it be more logical to introduce your own concept to rival them?

You cannot begin banning religious movements for preaching in a way you do not like, this is against basic freedom of religion.

Tableegh are not a violent movement, and actually they teach avoidance of politics and political discussion in their gatherings.

They are not a threat to anyone. This is just blatant fear-mongering.



Do you realize the alternative to Tabligh? I don't think you Indians realize the repercussions to your demonization of an innocent proselytizing group, which only targets lax Muslims to come to masajid.

The alternative is the kind of uncompromising and firm Islamic ideology like that of the Taliban and what is common in Pakistan and Kashmir. These kind of Deobandi Muslims will not cower nor be soft on their enemies. They also will actively work on converting Non-Muslims to Islam.

Is that the kind of environment you wish to create in India?

Every push will result in an even stronger push back.

Remember that Akbar and Shah Jahan's appeasement of Hindus and persecution of traditional Muslims lead to Sultan Aurangzeb Alamgir RA's ascendancy on the back of Orthodox Muslims.

You seem to not understand the situation in India.

Most Indians understand well what I told Jamahir.

If something emerges that needs our intervention because it's affecting Indians at large, as in the Nizamuddin markaz, we will.

But why should we intervene otherwise?

It's not the job of the state.

Post edited from Hindus to Sanghis.

I've pointed this out multiple times - please be careful about how you use the term Hindu/Hinduism when engaging in arguments with Indians. Do not confuse Hindutva, RSS, Sanghis etc with all Hinduism or all Hindus. Extremists exist in every faith and we need to be careful about not making derogatory generalizations about an entire faith.

Agno what does he mean by whatever the hell they do down there when directly referencing Hinduism (he's talking about conversion)?

What happens if a Hindu makes a similar veiled offensive remark about whatever the hell you guys do up there, alluding to your dominant faith?

 

[jamahir]

The first part of what you said was completely factual, there is no concept of Islamism or Political Islam in reality. This is due to Islam being a Deen, a way of life, and not merely a ritualistic religion relegated to the private sphere. Islam is a vibrant social and egalitarian movement which influences all spheres of an adherent's lifestyle.

Agreed.

As for Tableegh, rather than joining with RSS who seek to ban it to stifle Muslim religious unity and practice, wouldn't it be more logical to introduce your own concept to rival them?

That's an interesting idea. In the next coming five years I intend to have some political influence by using a certain technological project of mine to gain business prominence. This will give me the platform to reach out to Indians generally and Muslims in particular. What you suggest might just be possible.

Tableegh are not a violent movement, and actually they teach avoidance of politics and political discussion in their gatherings.

They are not a threat to anyone. This is just blatant fear-mongering.

No bhai, the TJ is banned in certain countries ( Russia, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan ) for the specific reason that it serves as the stepping stone to joining or setting up violent groups. I quote the Wikipedia page for TJ for some more info :

Law enforcement officials says that Tablighi Jamaat's presence all around the world and its apolitical stance have been exploited by militant groups. Philip Haney described Tablighi Jamaat as a "trans-national Islamist network". The Tablighi Jamaat has been described as "a conduit and a fertile recruiting ground for jihadi organizations such as Al-Qaeda and Lashkar-i-Taiba". However, Tablighi Jamaat itself has not been accused of terrorism by US officials.Leaders of the Tablighi Jamaat have denounced Al-Qaeda. According to Alex Alexiev, "perhaps 80% percent of the Islamist extremists have come from Tablighi ranks, prompting French intelligence officers to call Tablighi Jamaat the 'antechamber of fundamentalism.'"

Tablighi members who have been charged with terrorism include: Zacarias Moussaoui (charged in the United States in the 11 September attacks), Hervé Djamel Loiseau (French citizen found in Afghanistan), and Djamel Beghal (Algerian-born French citizen and Al Qaeda member who was convicted of plotting to blow up the U.S. Embassy in Paris), Syed Rizwan Farook. In a foiled January 2008 bombing plot in Barcelona, Spain, "some media reports" stated that a Muslim leader in the city stated that the fourteen suspects arrested by police in a series of raids (where bomb-making materials were seized) were members of the Tablighi Jamaat. Other terrorist plots and attacks on civilians that members of Tablighi Jamaat have been connected with include the Portland Seven, the Lackawanna Six, the 2006 transatlantic aircraft plot, the 7/7 London bombings, the 2007 London car bombs, and 2007 Glasgow International Airport attack.

The alternative is the kind of uncompromising and firm Islamic ideology like that of the Taliban and what is common in Pakistan and Kashmir. These kind of Deobandi Muslims will not cower nor be soft on their enemies. They also will actively work on converting Non-Muslims to Islam.

In India, I don't know about the North and the East but @padamchen will know of this in the West and I am witness in the South that, I again quote the timeline of the last 15 years, the Muslim social atmosphere here doesn't feel much different than being under the Taliban. Mainly the dressing and a regressive approach to Islam. What is not present here is the Talibani hangings, floggings, stoning to death. In certain cities there are even moral police groups, the counterpart to Hindutva moral police groups like Bajrang Dal and Sri Rama Sene.

All this wasn't the work of Deoband school fatwas but because of the TJ. I see their very visible effects.

 

[padamchen]

Agreed.



That's an interesting idea. In the next coming five years I intend to have some political influence by using a certain technological project of mine to gain business prominence. This will give me the platform to reach out to Indians generally and Muslims in particular. What you suggest might just be possible.



No bhai, the TJ is banned in certain countries ( Russia, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan ) for the specific reason that it serves as the stepping stone to joining or setting up violent groups. I quote the Wikipedia page for TJ for some more info :





In India, I don't know about the North and the East but @padamchen will know of this in the West and I am witness in the South that, I again quote the timeline of the last 15 years, the Muslim social atmosphere here doesn't feel much different than being under the Taliban. Mainly the dressing and a regressive approach to Islam. What is not present here is the Talibani hangings, floggings, stoning to death. In certain cities there are even moral police groups, the counterpart to Hindutva moral police groups like Bajrang Dal and Sri Rama Sene.

All this wasn't the work of Deoband school fatwas but because of the TJ. I see their very visible effects.

India cannot intervene because Muslims are becoming more orthodox in prayer and dress.

If the state does, there will be an uproar.

And it's not the state's business.

We simply look at it as escalating ghettoization of Muslims and otherization of non Muslim Indians.

When I posted the same @Mr.Cringeworth thought I was doing a caricature.

@xeuss advised me to get out of my house more.

This is what happens when people comment on our issues living outside, no offense to any well meaning expats.

 

[Naofumi]

Muslims are becoming more orthodox in prayer and dress.

Is there any evidence to prove this? Because my experience tells that Muslims are getting more and more westernised albeit to a lesser degree than Hindus; maybe you people are looking relatively.

 

[padamchen]

Is there any evidence to prove this? Because my experience tells that Muslims are getting more and more westernised albeit to a lesser degree than Hindus; maybe you people are looking relatively.

This is not my statement.

It's what @jamahir is saying.

My point is limited. It's not the state's business.