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A Homeland for Indian Muslims

@xeuss

Its people like Owaisi that’s fucked Indian Muslims up, he’s your version of Kashmir’s Sheikh Abdullah. Faster your dispose of clowns like him and clean house the better.

I think we all need to step back and look at a couple of things.

India has moved so far towards the right, and so vehemently anti-Pakistan, that there is little or no space for any reasonable person to speak freely within a public set up. Owaisi is simply trapped in that set up, where he cannot openly speak his mind. I don't know whether he genuinely dislikes Pakistan or is ambivalent towards it. That is besides the point. The point is that we will never know because the way the society is currently operating.

The second point is, I have maintained that Indian Muslims have no political affinity towards Pakistan. They do however share a religious, cultural and linguistic affinity. So why get aggravated whenever some political leader utters some criticism of Pakistan? You don't expect political leaders from other Muslim countries to sing paeans of Pakistan, so why expect the same from India Muslims political leaders, especially when they are in an environment where such criticism is expected from them to succeed in public life?
 
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Indian Muslim are just as Muslim as any Pakistani. They pray and fast just like us, and ask Allah swt for help. Their leadership may have made mistakes in the past in regards to us, but now Indian Muslims' eyes are completely open.

Lets be clear about a couple of things. There are no Indian Muslim leaders. The last leader of Indian Muslims was Muhammad Ali Jinnah and he left a huge scar on the Indian psyche to the extent that the Indian political leadership ensured that no other Muslim leader would ever emerge.

There are several Indian Muslim politicians who have been a fixture in the Indian political landscape but their clout barely extends beyond their constituencies from where they are elected, primarily because of the demographics of that constituencies. For the most part, these political leaders have done well for their electorate and therefore, deserve accolades. But to call these people as a pan-Indian Muslim leader is exaggerating the facts.

So please don't blame Indian Muslims or their limited leadership. Understand the situation that they are in.
 
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Lets be clear about a couple of things. There are no Indian Muslim leaders. The last leader of Indian Muslims was Muhammad Ali Jinnah and he left a huge scar on the Indian psyche to the extent that the Indian political leadership ensured that no other Muslim leader would ever emerge.

There are several Indian Muslim politicians who have been a fixture in the Indian political landscape but their clout barely extends beyond their constituencies from where they are elected, primarily because of the demographics of that constituencies. For the most part, these political leaders have done well for their electorate and therefore, deserve accolades. But to call these people as a pan-Indian Muslim leader is exaggerating the facts.

So please don't blame Indian Muslims or their limited leadership. Understand the situation that they are in.

No one blaming Indian Muslims but there political leaders.

Those Indian Muslim leaders were warned by Jinnah to come along and join because he saw the reality. But those Molvis were short sighted and decided to remain, they didn’t move because their thought process was of them losing electoral votes etc.

One example is that Moulana Madodi he didn’t love Pakistan but when he saw he had no power or influence in India he decided to shift over. Sadly we should’ve kicked that bechod out for abusing Wali Jinnah R.A., but we were all welcoming. Sadly a lot of useless people like Madodi crosses over and should’ve been taken care of at that point.

Right now you say there’s no leader but it’s in these challenging times we’re a leader naturally emerges takes time but Inshallah pray for the best.
 
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Lets be clear about a couple of things. There are no Indian Muslim leaders. The last leader of Indian Muslims was Muhammad Ali Jinnah and he left a huge scar on the Indian psyche to the extent that the Indian political leadership ensured that no other Muslim leader would ever emerge.

There are several Indian Muslim politicians who have been a fixture in the Indian political landscape but their clout barely extends beyond their constituencies from where they are elected, primarily because of the demographics of that constituencies. For the most part, these political leaders have done well for their electorate and therefore, deserve accolades. But to call these people as a pan-Indian Muslim leader is exaggerating the facts.

So please don't blame Indian Muslims or their limited leadership. Understand the situation that they are in.

Of course brother, I would not say that I understand Indian politics as well as you. You are very much in the environment and touched by the heat.

I was referring to post-Independence leaders of India, namely Abul Kalam Azad, who himself grew disenfranchised with the rising influence of Patel and other sectarian leaders. At the end, he himself was sidelined by Nehru and Gandhi.

Not to say I disrespect him, no, he was a leader of the people and a proper, respectable Muslim, but he caught his mistake too late. The Hindus simply can not be trusted to safeguard the interests of Muslims.

Quaid e Azam understood that early on and tried his best to convince him.

The nasty critics of Quaid e Azam were the JUH of Deoband, and they propagated many theories of Quaid e Azam's supposed English dietary habits, declaring him a Shia, made takfir on him, even going to the extent of describing him as Kaffir e Azam (auzobillah,) and altogether rubbished Pakistan, much to the admiration of secular and extremist Hindus alike.


One example is that Moulana Madodi he didn’t love Pakistan but when he saw he had no power or influence in India he decided to shift over. Sadly we should’ve kicked that bechod out for abusing Wali Jinnah R.A., but we were all welcoming. Sadly a lot of useless people like Madodi crosses over and should’ve been taken care of at that point.

Dear brother, I respect and admire everything you have written up until this point, I must politely disagree. I shall explain why.

You and I have the benefit of hindsight, which others did not.

No doubt Maulana Maududi made monumental mistakes when partition was happening, his vision was clouded in his fiqh and literary knowledge of Islam. He was not able to think outside the box as Allama Iqbal had done, who was an equally prestigious scholar of Islam.

However, he accepted and owned his mistakes when the violence of partition became clear.

At that point some Muslims of Pakistan and now India also could not accept that there needed to be a separate country. Partition violence was the absolute proof of the motives of Gandhi and Nehru, and their kind of duplicity and collusion with extremist Hindus and Sikhs.

Time proved Quaid e Azam correct, and remarkably, he is still being proven right to this day!

Maulana Maududi championed for Pakistan to become a genuine Islamic state, something that the people of Pakistan have been fighting for to this day. He did not agree with the secularism of the British raised elites of the political class and the military.

His vantage point was desperately needed to bring equilibruim to Pakistan. From his students, we received great Islamic scholars like Maulana Shabbir Usmani (who read the janazah of Quaid e Azam) and Dr. Israr Ahmad (who is admired by no less a person than Imran Khan.)

Furthermore, when the secular concept of Muslim nationalism collapsed in the aftermath of 1971 and the split of Bangladesh, the Islamic narrative of Pakistan took center stage. Pakistani Muslims had to rationalize why the events happened the way they did, and so we reached into Maulana Maududi's own theory of Islamic identity.

He put it quite clearly in his pamphlet "Tafheem ul Islam" in which he states clearly that Islam and Kufr are polar opposites, they can never compromise, just as light and darkness are distinct. Further he stated that Muslims have re-entered a Makkan period and that Islam must be preached and built from the ground up, and this was the only remedy for the people's problems.

Some Muslims were still stuck in Jahaliyya, hence they were easily influenced by Kuffar and against other Muslims.

It was this view of Islamic identity and rationalization of 1971, which gave birth to a new and more unified Pakistan. Now Islam took center stage, and a Muslim had to instill Islam in his life in all facets, for the betterment of Pakistan and the Muslim Ummat as a whole.

When Soviets invaded Afghanistan, it was this philosophy which was further proven correct. Now Pakistan could chart its future as an unabashedly Islamic state.

The old slogan, which my ancestors on the road to Pakistan recited over and over again, while they walked over the dead and mutilated bodies of fellow Muslims, while their malnourished and dehydrated bodies trudged on, and their eyes scoured the horizon for murderous bands of kuffar (Indian Sikhs/Hindus,) that slogan was born again.

Pakistan ka Matlab kya? La ilaha ila Allah.
 
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Lets be clear about a couple of things. There are no Indian Muslim leaders. The last leader of Indian Muslims was Muhammad Ali Jinnah and he left a huge scar on the Indian psyche to the extent that the Indian political leadership ensured that no other Muslim leader would ever emerge.
Spot on. Also the regional "secular" parties convinced Muslims that they were the best option to keep BJP out. It also have to do with the subaltern politics when OBC and Dalit resistance was at its peak; Muslims joined the bandwagon but neither riots stopped nor the development came.
There are several Indian Muslim politicians who have been a fixture in the Indian political landscape but their clout barely extends beyond their constituencies from where they are elected, primarily because of the demographics of that constituencies.
The point to be noted in this case is that there's no independent Muslim politician in the Hindi heartland and Bengal, independent Muslim parties are active in Kerala (Indian Union Muslim League), Assam (All India United Democratic Front) and various parties of Kashmir. Owaisi is rather limited to compared to the other two, to only 1-2 seats.
But he's vocal and much more visible than any other politician of any independent (Muslim led) or secular party's Muslim face maybe because he's a barrister and speak fluent English?
For the most part, these political leaders have done well for their electorate and therefore, deserve accolades.
I don't know about everyone but the likes of Owaisi are a failure when it comes to development. 63% of Hyderabad Muslims comes under BPL, that's a horrible fact.
 
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Thanks for this ray of sunlight buddy.

And apologies for not being able to share space there any longer ...

Firstly, Indian Muslims are too large a group to paint under one brush. That is like saying all Pakistanis are dishonest, as stated above by the troll in mention.

Second, I merely wanted you to read what is being written against our countrymen and to pit others against Pakistanis. This is the favored tactic of the secular Hindus to control Muslims.

Third, leave personal relationships behind and be impartial. Indian trolls have been banned for much the same rhetoric coming out of this poster, but because he is friends with some Mods and older members, he is given a free pass.

Your tendency to defend haters and enemies of Pakistan is troublesome.

No one should be exempt from the same rules as everyone else.

If such trolls can pit Pakistanis against each other, Muslims against each other, then what is the future of this forum for us?



He is trying to amplify your voice and mark it as a tendency of Pakistanis. Please resist the urge brother to fall into his trap.

Indian Muslim are just as Muslim as any Pakistani. They pray and fast just like us, and ask Allah swt for help. Their leadership may have made mistakes in the past in regards to us, but now Indian Muslims' eyes are completely open.

Indian Muslims fought back goons of RSS like proud lions in the New Delhi mob attacks. They deserve our respect, admiration, and our sincerest prayers.

@xeuss I am so glad we have brothers like you to set the record straight, because for far too long Hindu radicals or Hindu seculars like Joe, were speaking for Indian Muslims alone.

Now we have an alternative and more authentic voice to speak on behalf of Indian Muslims. PDF needs more Indian Muslims too.

I appreciate your posts.

BUT

By banning EVERY Indian participating on the thread (I come to PDF today and find everyone in pink)

And leaving only the ex Indian Muslims

Who is it you want them to be heard by?

:lol:

@AgNoStiC MuSliM @WebMaster

Itna Naya Josh?
 
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Of course brother, I would not say that I understand Indian politics as well as you. You are very much in the environment and touched by the heat.

I was referring to post-Independence leaders of India, namely Abul Kalam Azad, who himself grew disenfranchised with the rising influence of Patel and other sectarian leaders. At the end, he himself was sidelined by Nehru and Gandhi.

Not to say I disrespect him, no, he was a leader of the people and a proper, respectable Muslim, but he caught his mistake too late. The Hindus simply can not be trusted to safeguard the interests of Muslims.

Quaid e Azam understood that early on and tried his best to convince him.

The nasty critics of Quaid e Azam were the JUH of Deoband, and they propagated many theories of Quaid e Azam's supposed English dietary habits, declaring him a Shia, made takfir on him, even going to the extent of describing him as Kaffir e Azam (auzobillah,) and altogether rubbished Pakistan, much to the admiration of secular and extremist Hindus alike.




Dear brother, I respect and admire everything you have written up until this point, I must politely disagree. I shall explain why.

You and I have the benefit of hindsight, which others did not.

No doubt Maulana Maududi made monumental mistakes when partition was happening, his vision was clouded in his fiqh and literary knowledge of Islam. He was not able to think outside the box as Allama Iqbal had done, who was an equally prestigious scholar of Islam.

However, he accepted and owned his mistakes when the violence of partition became clear.

At that point some Muslims of Pakistan and now India also could not accept that there needed to be a separate country. Partition violence was the absolute proof of the motives of Gandhi and Nehru, and their kind of duplicity and collusion with extremist Hindus and Sikhs.

Time proved Quaid e Azam correct, and remarkably, he is still being proven right to this day!

Maulana Maududi championed for Pakistan to become a genuine Islamic state, something that the people of Pakistan have been fighting for to this day. He did not agree with the secularism of the British raised elites of the political class and the military.

His vantage point was desperately needed to bring equilibruim to Pakistan. From his students, we received great Islamic scholars like Maulana Shabbir Usmani (who read the janazah of Quaid e Azam) and Dr. Israr Ahmad (who is admired by no less a person than Imran Khan.)

Furthermore, when the secular concept of Muslim nationalism collapsed in the aftermath of 1971 and the split of Bangladesh, the Islamic narrative of Pakistan took center stage. Pakistani Muslims had to rationalize why the events happened the way they did, and so we reached into Maulana Maududi's own theory of Islamic identity.

He put it quite clearly in his pamphlet "Tafheem ul Islam" in which he states clearly that Islam and Kufr are polar opposites, they can never compromise, just as light and darkness are distinct. Further he stated that Muslims have re-entered a Makkan period and that Islam must be preached and built from the ground up, and this was the only remedy for the people's problems.

Some Muslims were still stuck in Jahaliyya, hence they were easily influenced by Kuffar and against other Muslims.

It was this view of Islamic identity and rationalization of 1971, which gave birth to a new and more unified Pakistan. Now Islam took center stage, and a Muslim had to instill Islam in his life in all facets, for the betterment of Pakistan and the Muslim Ummat as a whole.

When Soviets invaded Afghanistan, it was this philosophy which was further proven correct. Now Pakistan could chart its future as an unabashedly Islamic state.

The old slogan, which my ancestors on the road to Pakistan recited over and over again, while they walked over the dead and mutilated bodies of fellow Muslims, while their malnourished and dehydrated bodies trudged on, and their eyes scoured the horizon for murderous bands of kuffar (Indian Sikhs/Hindus,) that slogan was born again.

Pakistan ka Matlab kya? La ilaha ila Allah.

Brother @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan
what you’ve said makes perfect sense, me and you are able to seeing things from a different angel after we review what’s transpired in the past. On top of being blessed our ancestors made the trip to Pakistan.

As for the rest I can’t say a word as your more knowledgeable on this subject and deeply learned, hence I will boy my head to you. :-)
 
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Firstly, Indian Muslims are too large a group to paint under one brush. That is like saying all Pakistanis are dishonest, as stated above by the troll in mention. Questioning the mods is pointless, because the mods follow the rules far more strictly than the rest of us. If he was trolling, he would have been banned a long time ago.

Second, I merely wanted you to read what is being written against our countrymen and to pit others against Pakistanis. This is the favored tactic of the secular Hindus to control Muslims.

Third, leave personal relationships behind and be impartial. Indian trolls have been banned for much the same rhetoric coming out of this poster, but because he is friends with some Mods and older members, he is given a free pass.

Your tendency to defend haters and enemies of Pakistan is troublesome.

No one should be exempt from the same rules as everyone else.

If such trolls can pit Pakistanis against each other, Muslims against each other, then what is the future of this forum for us?
Once again, he is engaging in debate. He disagrees with you, that doesn't automatically make him a troll. Nor does him being an Indian mean he's automatically a troll either. Your own logic applies here as well.

While you're right that Indian Muslims aren't a monolithic group, and each individual is subject to their own opinions, if we're going to be honest here, most probably don't care about Pakistan, and are probably anti-Pakistani.

Even if we were to assume that they aren't anti-Pakistani. We know that a lot of them join the Indian army, and actively fight against Pakistan.

No matter how you put it, I have very little sympathy for them.

I'm not here to defend anyone, what I'm trying to do is engage in reasonable discussion. I don't know where you got this idea that I defend anti-Pakistanis, when you know for a fact that I do not.
 
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I am delighted you finally get the point.



Manusmriti is not the only Hindu legal system. I told you about Hindu laws because I mentioned that law is divided into three sections. If there were objections to one part of the three, there should be objections about this aberration across all systems.

If you don't pay attention, is it my fault?



Is that part of the law? Or was it an advisory? Learn the difference!



It is a platitude because it is the equivalent of saying laws should be good.



I don't have personal opinions about legal systems. These are established facts, existing bodies of work. People who do are dunderheads.



What does a template mean to you?



Check with the Pakistanis present on the forum, and don't purvey half-baked information.






<gasp!> Really? Thank you, thank you ever so much for informing me.
Let's agree to disagree. I will reply to you, then I'll get a longer reply from you. Let's stop the debate here.

It's anyway on the borderline theological side which is not allowed.
 
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Let's agree to disagree. I will reply to you, then I'll get a longer reply from you. Let's stop the debate here.

It's anyway on the borderline theological side which is not allowed.

If you wish. You were the one who wanted the discussion continued, in spite of my reluctance. That reluctance was due to my perception that you simply knew very little, and were trotting out simplistic phrases that you picked up from others. Now that you have been given specific details, it seems - I could be wrong - that you find the whole mixture too rich for you, and the exercise of learning what you are speaking about too taxing, and want to start somewhere else with a new arrangement of the same cliches.

Your wish. Please don't ask me a second time to indulge you and answer your questions. I did, and you fled. That's it. Whether you reply or not, this is my last remark addressed to you. It is difficult to believe that anything rational or knowledgeable will be forthcoming from your side.
 
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By banning EVERY Indian participating on the thread (I come to PDF today and find everyone in pink)

And leaving only the ex Indian Muslims

Who is it you want them to be heard by?

:lol:

@AgNoStiC MuSliM @WebMaster

Itna Naya Josh?
I went back and looked at - only found Andhadhun banned (user from this thread). Issued one warning point by a mod that auto triggered a ban. Take a look at his last thread created (I believe that is what triggered the warning).

Not sure if the existing warning points (and when they drop off) are visible to a user so users can be more cautious while posting. I'll talk to the Admins about that.

Who else was banned?
 
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I went back and looked at - only found Andhadhun banned (user from this thread). Issued one warning point by a mod that auto triggered a ban. Take a look at his last thread created (I believe that is what triggered the warning).

Not sure if the existing warning points (and when they drop off) are visible to a user so users can be more cautious while posting. I'll talk to the Admins about that.

Who else was banned?

Dharmi

Kongn

Active here and on Kashmir / LOC threads

Is it not possible to take a warning off the grid once it has been invoked for an auto ban?

I suspecr a double triple multiple jeopardy system happening.

You've debulked this forum from a thriving multinational one to a Pakistani one with UN observers

What can I say man. Your forum. Happy to be here.
 
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