A divided nation | Peace or War with Taliban?

[Amaa'n]

yar ye kahan se kahan a gaye tum log , way too off-topic.

When leadership itself is divided, how are you going to form a consensus among nation?
When I speak of Leadership, it necessarily does not mean Political leadership or Military leadership, I am talking about Leadership of religious groups, religious factions, different school of religious studies.
As long as these people are divided, there will never be consensus.

 

[jaibi]

@Mamba I would stop here because it's really derailing why I wrote this piece, I would love to argue further but right now the aim of this thread was not this trajectory. I would like to advice that you do study a number of reports on the Pakistan's War effort and that too from a number of sources. @Hyperion was spot on when he told you that you are not really aware of the ground realities in Pakistan and the view you are presenting is due to that vacuum.

I hope you don't take my reply the wrong way.

Regards.

yar ye kahan se kahan a gaye tum log , way too off-topic.

When leadership itself is divided, how are you going to form a consensus among nation?
When I speak of Leadership, it necessarily does not mean Political leadership or Military leadership, I am talking about Leadership of religious groups, religious factions, different school of religious studies.
As long as these people are divided, there will never be consensus.

I know balixid I would like to get back to where we wanted to go. Why don't you present your views on the original article?

Yar they are guerrilla fighters. Either you go will full war or peace talk, we can't finish them. They will continue to fight for 50+ years. There is no end of this war expect to bring them on table talk, and then play your cards better. Only way is to convince them on own terms, try, try again.... Put them on hold....
In full scale war, may be we can demolish them within 15-20 years.... But at the cost of more bloodshed of civilians, army and we have to bear the barking media... and so called civil society and human rights organization...
Children of Taliban is their future, if you leave them, and they will take revenge...
Best strategy is to put them on Hold, and Invest in education sector......................

Civilian, I agree, on the latter, we need to defeat them ideologically and that is the frontlines of this battle not the military operation and in that sector we have failed.

 

[Alpha1]

We radicalized a whole generation in the 80s to save our republic from the so called RED threat.. We forgot what could be the concequences of the Radicalization, imagine kids were indoctrinated with a very voilent form of Islam and Ironicaly the salabus came from amreeka the big devil (now) and now we face a monster and after 50k death we still manage to find sympathizer of these scumbag

 

[jaibi]

@Peaceful Civilian @balixd @Armstrong @Hyperion

I was of the view that we could engage them, that too if the conditions allowed but the attack on Maj. Gen. shows that it is not really a good show of national solidarity. Anyways, if we could engage them and arm our police and anti-narcotics service to dismantle their economic infrastructure which rests on criminal and drug enterprise. We could break their backs but this requires a coordination of our civil, military and political sectors and the present leadership seems to be blind to it because we would need certain major reforms such as granting FATA provincial status and so on.

 

[KingMamba]

@Mamba I would stop here because it's really derailing why I wrote this piece, I would love to argue further but right now the aim of this thread was not this trajectory. I would like to advice that you do study a number of reports on the Pakistan's War effort and that too from a number of sources. @Hyperion was spot on when he told you that you are not really aware of the ground realities in Pakistan and the view you are presenting is due to that vacuum.

I hope you don't take my reply the wrong way.

Ok fine and I only replied to you because you went on a tirade for no reason. Idk what @Hyperion was referring to when he said I do not know but I don't put much stock into that kemalist anyway he thinks everyone is on the same page as him.

 

[jaibi]

We radicalized a whole generation in the 80s to save our republic from the so called RED threat.. We forgot what could be the concequences of the Radicalization, imagine kids were indoctrinated with a very voilent form of Islam and Ironicaly the salabus came from amreeka the big devil (now) and now we face a monster and after 50k death we still manage to find sympathizer of these scumbag

Exactly, that's why we need a major input of the civil apparatus.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Whatever is decided - I wish you the best of luck

Though personally I believe it is difficult to trust them - but then you will be the better judges.

 

[Amaa'n]

I know balixid I would like to get back to where we wanted to go. Why don't you present your views on the original article?

as one of fellows said above, you have asked way too many questions in the article, its a nice report though.
Talking about People and the nation, than that has to be brought from top. In business they tell us, when Change is to be brought in, it requires strong & committed Leadership. Even in our case, it will require some committed leadership, that will actually work to bring change rather than distributing scooties & laptops.

Solution to the war: Well, again in Business studies they tell us that whenever you are going to get into a deal with another organization, whoever has the upper hand gets the best deal. If you want to secur a best deal, you better put the other corporation in defensive mode and you take the offensive.
Like Microsft taking over Nokia, Google taking over Motorola. The big giants ate up the small fishes, thats the basic rule.

So why should it be any different when it comes to dealing with TTP? This might have started off as US WoT, but right now it sure is our war.
Should we fight them? yes, ofcourse or else you see them sitting in the PM house.
But why not peace? well ofcourse peace is the long term solution.
What I am suggesting is, We fight these monsters, We put them to defensive position, rather offensive, Nation needs to stand by Leadership & Military, tell talibunies, if they want peace it will be on our terms.
Once we have pushed them to their ratholes, than offer a peace dialogue.

@Peaceful Civilian @balixd @Armstrong @Hyperion

I was of the view that we could engage them, that too if the conditions allowed but the attack on Maj. Gen. shows that it is not really a good show of national solidarity. Anyways, if we could engage them and arm our police and anti-narcotics service to dismantle their economic infrastructure which rests on criminal and drug enterprise. We could break their backs but this requires a coordination of our civil, military and political sectors and the present leadership seems to be blind to it because we would need certain major reforms such as granting FATA provincial status and so on.

something I have been wishing for , for past few years.....cutting the financial supply line

 

[Alpha1]

Exactly, that's why we need a major input of the civil apparatus.

we should de-radicalize them with the same method we radicalized them madrassas and by controling what they are taught. What say?

 

[Amaa'n]

Exactly, that's why we need a major input of the civil apparatus.

A quote from my first report that never saw the daylight

Carl von Clausewitz defined war as, “war is the extension of politics by other means”
It has been said that Civilian-Military relationship is interlinked to each other; given the broad strategic decisions such as declaration of a war, to lead an invasion, or put an end to a conflict, anything that has a major impact on the lives & welfare of the citizens of the country. so as they are representatives of the people, driven by the will of the people
Georges Clemenceau, a world renowned Military theorist once said, "War is too serious a matter to entrust to military men"
Advocates of Civilian control argue that as civilian leadership is the representative of the people best guided by the will of the people , they are in a better to take decisions rather than left solely to an elite group of tactical experts.
As compared to Civilians, Military is the force to implement & execute rather than formulate the policies.
Kohn succinctly summarizes this view when he writes that the point of civilian control is to make security subordinate to the larger purposes of a nation, rather than the other way around. The purpose of the military is to defend society, not to define it.

 

[Alpha1]

something I have been wishing for , for past few years.....cutting the financial supply line

They have their arbee and other bros to support them!
We should cut their ideology down. As i always say we need an Ideological overhaul , educate our people to out rightly reject their mutated version of Islam

 

[Armstrong]

@Peaceful Civilian @balixd @Armstrong @Hyperion

I was of the view that we could engage them, that too if the conditions allowed but the attack on Maj. Gen. shows that it is not really a good show of national solidarity. Anyways, if we could engage them and arm our police and anti-narcotics service to dismantle their economic infrastructure which rests on criminal and drug enterprise. We could break their backs but this requires a coordination of our civil, military and political sectors and the present leadership seems to be blind to it because we would need certain major reforms such as granting FATA provincial status and so on.

Honestly I've no idea what to do !

We can't really talk to them because we've got nothing to talk to them about ! They've got a grievance that goes 'because you entered the War On Terror - This is Payback for that' & a demand that goes 'we're going to bring our system here perforce & anyone who stands within our way is an enemy of God & needs to be butchered like a goat' !

Frankly I don't buy into their grievance because studying the 'effect' of their grievance does not correlate, in my opinion, with its stated 'causation' because, whereas I could be wrong, I have a feeling that the women, children, young & old alike that are blown up in our mosques, in our schools, in our hospitals, in our marketplaces & even in our funerals aren't the ones who got Pakistan's entry into the War On Terror nor are they the ones who're calling the Drone Strikes ! Furthermore the nexus between the LeJ & the TTP doesn't add up for me either because the Shias didn't do squat when it comes to entering the War On Terror so why include them in the equation ?

So if the targets are indiscriminate then the cause & effect just doesn't add up for me !

Which leaves us with their 'Demand' ! They want to enforce their Interpretation of Islam on the rest of us whether someone agrees with them or not & if they 'do not' agree with them then the TTP will do to them what we do to an unsuspecting goat every Eid !

I don't know if there is any indication towards the TTP coming down from its Maximilist Position & if they don't can we possible agree to that demand ? Haven't we seen its results in Swat & elsewhere ?

Which leaves you with the option of fighting them !

As I said earlier, in my opinion, you need credibility, capacity & deterrence for that ! We don't have any of those three !

None of our State Security Institutions, Civilian Executive, Bureaucracy, Judiciary & the Media have 'credibility enough' in the eyes of the common man to be heard & believed so that the TTP narrative & those of their sympathizers isn't heard & believed by the gullible masses that we have !

Barring the Army no other Security Apparatus in Pakistan has the Capacity of fighting them & perhaps not even the Army because whereas conventional & non conventional might be a differential of a mere 3 letters in the English Language - On ground theres probably a world of difference ! I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that the Army had to practically reinvent itself in a myriad ways to fight this War ! What to say of the Police & the Levies ?

Which leaves us with Deterrence ! Until recently we didn't even have laws to deal with this & deterrence, I think, depends upon both capacity & credibility & when the both of them are in short supply - Wheres the deterrence ?

So I dunno whats the way out of this War ! I don't think the Talks are going to achieve anything but I'm not much too optimistic about Fighting them either !

Maybe Pukhtoons like @Hyperion @chauvunist @TaimiKhan @Spring Onion - who can understand the dynamics of the Tribal Areas better than anyone of us - can lend some insight into something that we're missing out....that something that would be able to take initiative back from the TTP & save our Pukhtoon Belt & by extension - Pakistan, from terrible loss of innocent life & limb !

I don't know whether its through some Jirgas, through the Levies, through the Tribal Lashkars, through the Army's continued presence or through something else would we be able to solve this problem !

If you ask me - What to do ? I'm simply at a loss for words because I dunno what to do !

Our enemies within & without are brilliant in that they've entangled us in a conundrum that I don't see us getting out of for a long...long time !

' @Secur @Mamba @Hyperion @Marshmallow @Aeronaut @Icarus @Xeric @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Developereo @Oscar

 

[chauvunist]

To be Frank i am not in favor of talks with TTP...We should see Swat operation as the Role model and Example where our Army successfully disbanded their whole organiztion and hunted each and every one including those who were even remotely related(sympathizers)to them...

But one thing is that Army should keep on backing and protecting those civilians/tribal leaders who aided the Army in their efforts to overcome this menace..Many of those who backed and supported Army have been Killed and even now those who live are in a constant threat of being blown/killed by TTP and our Govt and Army should and must make sure their safety,Only then one can expect the open support of Public and condemnation of Terrorists...

 

[jaibi]

If there are common denominators in the collective consciousness of 'our people' then they are an infatuation with self-flaggelation, stupidity of the highest order & a clear disassociation from critical thought !

What we need is an Enlightened Leader who can guide, nurture & caress our people into reinventing themselves into something more than what we are today !

My Enlightened Leader died in '48 & I don't think that this Land is ready to give birth to another one just yet !

I honestly think, Arm, that we need a more collective effort instead of looking for a leader. This is the scenario I want you to imagine, think what if God forbid tomorrow either due to natural or unnatural reasons Imran Khan, the Sharif brothers, the Zardari-Bhuttos and every MPA and MNA from this and last government disappears from the face of the Earth. What would happen to Pakistan? Let's say that the entire upper brass of the military does too. What then? Will Pakistan survive? Why must we always rely on one man? Leader? We need a system not a man. That's my view of it and that's why I encourage individuals to do their part at least.

To be Frank i am not in favor of talks with TTP...We should see Swat operation as the Role model and Example where our Army successfully disbanded their whole organiztion and hunted each and every one including those who were even remotely related(sympathizers)to them...

But one thing is that Army should keep on backing and protecting those civilians/tribal leaders who aided the Army in their efforts to overcome this menace..Many of those who backed and supported Army have been Killed and even now those who live are in a constant threat of being blown/killed by TTP and our Govt and Army should and must make sure their safety,Only then one can expect the open support of Public and condemnation of Terrorists...

A very valid point, our peace with them would compromise those people who took our side against the TTP. What would happen to them? What would happen to our credibility?

 

[Armstrong]

I honestly think, Arm, that we need a more collective effort instead of looking for a leader. This is the scenario I want you to imagine, think what if God forbid tomorrow either due to natural or unnatural reasons Imran Khan, the Sharif brothers, the Zardari-Bhuttos and every MPA and MNA from this and last government disappears from the face of the Earth. What would happen to Pakistan? Let's say that the entire upper brass of the military does too. What then? Will Pakistan survive? Why must we always rely on one man? Leader? We need a system not a man. That's my view of it and that's why I encourage individuals to do their part at least.

Look towards the History of Nations - Strong Leadership is what has put those systems in place as opposed to those systems growing organically through popular movement !

We need that Leadership so that our Institutional crisis is solved ! And only then can we look towards an existence which isn't centered around People (Leaders) !