A divided nation | Peace or War with Taliban?

[jaibi]

Peace set by the terms of state of Pakistan, they need to soften TTP militarily before accepting offer for talks

I think everyone whether for Peace or War will agree to that. The TTP dictating us is just a slap on our faces as a nation.

 

[Slav Defence]

@jaibi
Very well written,shabash!

The question isn't that: 'Can we enjoy 'khawa' while discussing the flaws and lapses freely about their brutal system or with that of democratic system?'
The question is that:'Are we ready to accept their pseudo version of Islam?'
or 'Are we ready to let them take our children and use them for suscide bombings in the name jihad?'
Yes,indeed the current crisis is complicated ,but that doesn't mean that it is impossible to resolve.
I will prepare a detailed report Inshallah and give you my analysis as soon as my PC will get fixed.

 

[jaibi]

@jaibi
Very well written,shabash!

The question isn't that: 'Can we enjoy 'khawa' while discussing the flaws and lapses freely about their brutal system or with that of democratic system?'
The question is that:'Are we ready to accept their pseudo version of Islam?'
or 'Are we ready to let them take our children and use them for suscide bombings in the name jihad?'
Yes,indeed the current crisis is complicated ,but that doesn't mean that it is impossible to resolve.
I will prepare a detailed report Inshallah and give you my analysis as soon as my PC will get fixed.

Thank you for reading and I look forward to your report. My basic aim is reach consensus amongst our people and so I've tried to point out the debate from both sides.

 

[KingMamba]

are you hinting Secularism?

So Pakistan broke away from India in 1947 for religious reasons and now secularism is the answer to Pakistan's problem? You hear these people? Might as well merge back with India, Indias been secular since 1947.

 

[karan.1970]

So Pakistan broke away from India in 1947 for religious reasons and now secularism is the answer to Pakistan's problem? You hear these people? Might as well merge back with India, Indias been secular since 1947.

Jinnah broke Pakistan away in 1947 to ensure he does not lose prominence to Nehru post independence and used the excuse of creating a separate Muslim state to disguise his ambition. That excuse over the years has mutated to its current form of religious extremism in Pakistan.

Secularism is a good dream but never gonna happen in Pakistan. Religion wise, Pakistan does not have enough diversity to allow for secularism. The best bet Pakistan can have is to move away from current sectarian strife..

 

[KingMamba]

Jinnah broke Pakistan away in 1947 to ensure he does not lose prominence to Nehru post independence and used the excuse of creating a separate Muslim state to disguise his ambition. That excuse over the years has mutated to its current form of religious extremism in Pakistan.

Secularism is a good dream but never gonna happen in Pakistan. Religion wise, Pakistan does not have enough diversity to allow for secularism. The best bet Pakistan can have is to move away from current sectarian strife..

Oh please. Don't drag Jinnah into this.

 

[karan.1970]

Oh please. Don't drag Jinnah into this.

Dude, you talked about creation of Pakistan.. I am just sharing my perspective..

 

[S.Y.A]

you should also post how this war in northern areas started? why before 2004, there was no war and then suddenly our leadership realized this threat?

 

[jaibi]

So Pakistan broke away from India in 1947 for religious reasons and now secularism is the answer to Pakistan's problem? You hear these people? Might as well merge back with India, Indias been secular since 1947.

False. Israel was created for the Jewish population of the world, it harbours a large non-Jew minority and has many secular practices. Pakistan can follow that model or make one that befits it. It's idiotic to think to reverse history and this perceived attack on our soverignity is the reason why we get stuck. No nation can justify its exitence, the US, took over the land of an entirely different race and supplanted its own culture. Yet no one is arguing for the US to become the original states and give the rest of the land back to the real Americans is it? Same is the case with us.

Jinnah broke Pakistan away in 1947 to ensure he does not lose prominence to Nehru post independence and used the excuse of creating a separate Muslim state to disguise his ambition. That excuse over the years has mutated to its current form of religious extremism in Pakistan.

Secularism is a good dream but never gonna happen in Pakistan. Religion wise, Pakistan does not have enough diversity to allow for secularism. The best bet Pakistan can have is to move away from current sectarian strife..

Again false, Pakistan has high diversity, Muslims are not one entity, the sects often do not agree on one another about religious denominations. There is disagreement about what exactly is a Muslim. Yes, compared to India we host lesser diversity but India is a separate country and we are separate. Respect that.

This is not based on history, we will have a new thread on that so please focus.

you should also post how this war in northern areas started? why before 2004, there was no war and then suddenly our leadership realized this threat?

A valid suggestion S.Y.A but I wanted to focus more on the present rather than the past but a brief overview might have been helpful.

 

[KingMamba]

False. Israel was created for the Jewish population of the world, it harbours a large non-Jew majority and has many secular practices. Pakistan can follow that model or make one that befits it. It's idiotic to think to reverse history and this perceived attack on our soverignity is the reason why we get stuck. No nation can justify its exitence, the US, took over the land of an entirely different race and supplanted its own culture. Yet no one is arguing for the US to become the original states and give the rest of the land back to the real Americans is it? Same is the case with us.

Nothing false about what I said. Your other examples have nothing to do with Pakistan. Not to mention even in Israel many people argue that Israeli laws should be based on Jewish law because it is a Jewish state. Ok then question for you, is a secular state was Muhammad Ali Jinnah wanted or is this your own want?

 

[jaibi]

Nothing false about what I said. Your other examples have nothing to do with Pakistan. Not to mention even in Israel many people argue that Israeli laws should be based on Jewish law because it is a Jewish state. Ok then question for you, is a secular state was Muhammad Ali Jinnah wanted or is this your own want?

As with every nation changing times requires assimilation and re-interpretation. It was Jefferson who said that each generation would have to reinterpret the constitution. So why is it wrong when we do that? By essence it means that the constitution is created by consensus of the populace. As the wording of your constitution goes 'We hold these words to be self-evident', however, as the times evolved so does the nature of the bill, that's why you have ammendments. That's why before the Civil-War United States meant a confederation of States rather than a country and afterwards it was clear to the world that United States means a country a strong federated unit.

Times change and nations evolve. My point is exactly that, Jews who want Isreali law to be based on Jewish scriptures live easily in Israel and their view has political representations and so do the jews that protest against their government's oppression of the Arabs and Arab Israelis. We can have that here as well.

It does not matter who wanted it, the founding father of my country or my peers and me. Your founding fathers wrote each man is free and your country would ensure they have the societal conditions to pursue happiness. Yet, they owned slaves! It took the civil war to free them and the civil rights movement for people to accept that and further more time for greater intergration. During this time the government erected laws and then dismantled them. Nations are dynamic. I would love to know how George Washington would feel like to know Obama is president now.

 

[KingMamba]

Dude, you talked about creation of Pakistan.. I am just sharing my perspective..

OK fair enough then I disagree.

 

[jaibi]

So Pakistan broke away from India in 1947 for religious reasons and now secularism is the answer to Pakistan's problem? You hear these people? Might as well merge back with India, Indias been secular since 1947.

I have a question for you Mamba, are we not allies as nations? Why are things different for Pakistan and different for Israel and India? Why must you put a rolling eye expression when you address the problems of my nation? Does it not bother you that we are struggling and we should be respected? Do we not deserve dignity? Why must you accentuate your posts about my nation's founding father with a laughing emoticon? Do you not think that is disrespectful? How does that help any of us?

 

[KingMamba]

As with every nation changing times requires assimilation and re-interpretation. It was Jefferson who said that each generation would have to reinterpret the constitution. So why is it wrong when we do that? By essence it means that the constitution is created by consensus of the populace. As the wording of your constitution goes 'We hold these words to be self-evident', however, as the times evolved so does the nature of the bill, that's why you have ammendments. That's why before the Civil-War United States meant a confederation of States rather than a country and afterwards it was clear to the world that United States means a country a strong federated unit.

Times change and nations evolve. My point is exactly that, Jews who want Isreali law to be based on Jewish scriptures live easily in Israel and their view has political representations and so do the jews that protest against their government's oppression of the Arabs and Arab Israelis. We can have that here as well.

It does not matter who wanted it, the founding father of my country or my peers and me. Your founding fathers wrote each man is free and your country would ensure they have the societal conditions to pursue happiness. Yet, they owned slaves! It took the civil war to free them and the civil rights movement for people to accept that and further more time for greater intergration. During this time the government erected laws and then dismantled them. Nations are dynamic. I would love to know how George Washington would feel like to know Obama is president now.

Sorry but the American situation has no bearing on Pakistan because this is a literate nation. In Pakistan the vast majority are illiterate so who will be doing the reinterpretations in Pakistan? The politicians who are just looking for the next big payday? Also secularism worked here because this was already a diverse nation from the onset, there were so many different denominations of Protestantism here that had they not created a secular nation the whole country would have fell apart. In Pakistan over 95% people are Muslim and Pakistan overall is a conservative nation so secularism would just be laughed at or worst case the people proposing it would be executed, most people cannot get 3 square meals in Pakistan and you libs are talking about secularism. I only brought up Jinnah because its been nearly 70+ years since Pakistan's inception and people there still ask, what did Jinnah want? So that was my question to you as well. Did Jinnah want a secular nation? No he did not or else he would have been a hypocrite.

 

[KingMamba]

I have a question for you Mamba, are we not allies as nations? Why are things different for Pakistan and different for Israel and India? Why must you put a rolling eye expression when you address the problems of my nation? Does it not bother you that we are struggling and we should be respected? Do we not deserve dignity? Why must you accentuate your posts about my nation's founding father with a laughing emoticon? Do you not think that is disrespectful? How does that help any of us?

Yes America and Pakistan are allies but most Pakistanis don't like it anyway... Things are different for Pakistan because Pakistan is not Israel or India. My rolling eye emoticon was not addressed towards the problems Pakistan faces rather the absurd solutions that are presented forward, like I said most people cannot get 3 square meals and the majority are conservative and you think telling them that they have to put religion aside would go over well with them? Where ever there is illiteracy and poverty there is conservatism your dramatic approach to thrust secularism upon such a people would only bring bodily harm upon yourself. Rather fix the economy, create a consensus with all political parties on where they stand viz a vis the TTP, and educate the whole nation. If you do that most problems would be solved and you won't need secularism because an educated populace would be able to think for themselves and not take everything Mullahs say as face value. Yes it bothers me because I am ethnically Pakistani, yes you do but like I said who will deliver it?

I was not laughing at Jinnah rather at the notion that his creation of Pakistan was a power grab from Nehru. No it is not because you misconstrued my laughter at the Indian for scorn towards Jinnah.