A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force

[jaibi]

I seem to have someone that has not followed up my career here.

Hi,

There is no bad blood---I just hate all SIFARSHIS with a passion. I hate them all equally without discrimination and prejudice.

If you had written something over the years----I am pretty sure our swords would have crossed---. If our swords have not crossed yet---then it means that you have not written any thing of substance.

You are a serving member of the military now---according to you----.

So---if you cannot do justice with your position on this board then you must quit your title---.

Show some character------. If you cannot do justice to this job---then why do you have it.

How about the military job---would you do the same with that job---or is title JUST FOR SHOW to your bosses.

Would you use the same excuse at time of war----oh---I was busy---I could not do the planning----.

 

[melb4aust]

MK, sir, this is third or fourth thread you have started just on your gut instinct.
On the current subject, do you really think that those sitting in PAF HQ, are so incompetent that they need us, the armchair generals to give them direction. iiii
On the contrary, i believe the PAF has called the Indian bluff.....imagine three years earlier, when the MMRCA deal was finalised for supposedly 126 Rafales, say there was a knee jerk reaction from the PAF, three years down the line, what would have been consequences except paying for something through the nose to counter something which is not even anywhere on the horizon. In essence PAF leadership has come out on top by sticking to it's guns for first replacing the vulnerable aircraft with more capable JF-17 to give the air force some depth and potent capability. I posted the news in 2010 through a very reliable source that PAF has no plans to induct the J-10 in the immediate future as it's hands were full with JF-17 programme.
It's also worth noting that the fleet available to PAF is kept at maximum operational level, no point acquiring a platform, a depressing percentage of which remains grounded due to snags.

I know your post was directed to Mastan. However let me enlighten few points without offending you.

1. Comparing ourselves to armchair generals will be foolish, they have the knowledge, they have experience and they are so called the men of their field. The point of discussion starts from our awareness and unawareness of many matters. And we are having this discussion on PDF forum not on PAF HQ.

2. Why are we only countering MMRCA deal why not everything else, that IAF have already procured? Where are we standing at our Naval air war fronts? What is wrong thinking beyond JF-17 by filling old gaps and achieving air superiority or deep strike capability. Why do have to have a defensive stance why not offensive?

3. Fleet available to PAF is being kept at operational level, because of the upmost requirement of so employed defensive doctrine. Why there is need of acquiring a potent, lethal and offensive platform? Because the enemy station at next door neighbor can never be trusted of any misadventure at anytime. Having such a platform in your arsenal will make the enemy itself go defensive in its strategy with a fear of being hit back relentlessly from all corners. It will not only boost your capabilities but also the moral of your men defending and fighting against internal and external threats all around.

 

[MastanKhan]

I seem to have someone that has not followed up my career here.

Are you quitting your post or not---that is the question----. Or are you going to take the lead and start leading the discussion s over here.

 

[jaibi]

I'm afraid power has corrupted me, completely.

Are you quitting your post or not---that is the question----. Or are you going to take the lead and start leading the discussion s over here.

 

[That Guy]

I'm afraid power has corrupted me, completely.

Yeah, just move on, it's what I've started to do.

Hi,

Here is the Think Tank chairman people-----Not a single original thread started own his on for 1 year and 2 months----.

One started yesterday after a hiatus of one year is a paste and copy of someone else article ----.

Son----if you have an iota of shame in you---you resign from your position and end this farceful Think Tank group.

@jaibi the truth is and I swear to Allah----I had not seen a post from you for so long that I thought that we had gotten rid of you---or maybe you left on your own.

I now I see your miserable self attached to this board like a blood sucker---doing no constructive work and just attached---what a shame----a true Pakistani in form.

You realize attacking someone personally is against forum rules, especially if they have an official title? Calm down, this is a forum for enthusiasts, nothing more. People are welcome to come and go as they please, and even if he didn't have the title, what he said probably wouldn't change anything.

 

[melb4aust]

Are you quitting your post or not---that is the question----. Or are you going to take the lead and start leading the discussion s over here.

I'm afraid power has corrupted me, completely..

Ok cut it out boys, get along with normal discussion. At least for sake of your repute.

 

[MastanKhan]

I know your post was directed to Mastan. However let me enlighten few points without offending you.

1. Comparing ourselves to armchair generals will be foolish, they have the knowledge, they have experience and they are so called the men of their field. The point of discussion starts from our awareness and unawareness of many matters. And we are having this discussion on PDF forum not on PAF HQ.

2. Why are we only countering MMRCA deal why not everything else, that IAF have already procured? Where are we standing at our Naval air war fronts? What is wrong thinking beyond JF-17 by filling old gaps and achieving air superiority or deep strike capability. Why do have to have a defensive stance why not offensive?

3. Fleet available to PAF is being kept at operational level, because of the upmost requirement of so employed defensive doctrine. Why there is need of acquiring a potent, lethal and offensive platform? Because the enemy station at next door neighbor can never be trusted of any misadventure at anytime. Having such a platform in your arsenal will make the enemy itself go defensive in its strategy with a fear of being hit back relentlessly from all corners. It will not only boost your capabilities but also the moral of your men defending and fighting against internal and external threats all around.

Hi,

Thank you very much for your post----. The more I delve into this mmrca deal---the more I feel that it is a sabotage on paf's future procurements.

My question to myself is---is the enemy at a loss without a mmrca
is its current strength any weaker without mmrca
can it survive maintain and manage superiority without mmrca
does it already have superiority in the arena without mrca

and the answer to all these questions is a big NO----
the enemy is not at a loss without mmrca
its current strength is not any weaker without mmrca
it can survive maintain and manage superiority without mmrca
it already has superiority without mmrca

So---then my next question was----what was this mmrca all about.
Why would india involve every major manufacturer of the world except china for 5 years and that also for on 126 aircraft----.

To me there is only one reason----as they keep busy with the drama of vetting out the right aircraft---that will keep the competitors away from making any offers to Pakistan.

It would also keep the Pakistan air force on a limb if it fell into that trap---and it did----. And the most important thing that it would do is---that the funds for the procurement would be religated for something else.

Keeping mmrca deal in the front---and putting it in limbo would still keep the energy of pakistan air force focused on the procurement of mmrca----and thus making them lose valuable time and money in the process.

It was made to understand---that without mmrca---IAF is maybe sort of weak and has no teeth----and without mmrca---it would be easy game----and mmrca is something out of this world that will bring IAF out of dormancy and make something out of it.

Paf got ensnared in the mmrca web---and all its game plan and dealing were focused and directed towards the end result of mmrca----resulting in a limbo in its own procurement.

So---the end result----IAF did not lose anything---and the Paf---lost ground----. As it has not procured a suitable air superiority aircraft----it has fallen back as many years in strength----.

As I wrote 7---8 years ago---get a new aircraft---it will take you 5 to 10 years to integrate.

So---basically---the paf is in a blind and is confused----. Because the 5th gen aircraft is about 10 years away----and so damned if you do it and damned if you don't----ie---buy a 4 or a 4.5 gen aircraft.

 

[jaibi]

But I never get to have fun

Ok cut it out boys, get along with normal discussion. At least for sake of your repute.

Hey @That Guy what's been up?

 

[jupiter2007]

There are only 4 options.....
1) Add more F-16s
2) Add more JF-17 block2 and block3
3) J-10c /F-10c
3) J-11D / J-16

FBC-1/JH-7A was rejected by PAF/PN due to under power engine.
JH-7B new engine is in development stages and not going to be ready until 2018.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Hi,

Many a people people and professionals are of the feeling that the delay in the mmrca deal has given paf some breathing room to decide what they want to get and many of them think that the delay is good for Pakistan.

To the contrary---the delay in mmrca deal is a successful sabotage on the procurement of an aircraft by the Pakistan air force by the indian planners.

Even though Iaf may have lesser numbers---it still has a higher number of potent aircraft in its fleet to face the challenge and take the battle into the house of the enemy.

The lack of mmrca does not hurt india---but rather strengthen its position---because paf has blundered into not making the procurement of an air superiority fighter that they desperately need and waiting for the finalization of mmrca to see which direction they want to go.

If the paf had gone with the J10B's in 2012 as it was offered with a complete package out of existing stock by the Chinese----paf would have been by now 2 / 3rds of the way into integrating that aircraft into the existing system and getting their pilots upto date on that machine.

But no---paf decided to chase the 8 ball---and in the process it got way behind of its target of achieving some kind of parity on the air superiority front.

Paf used to be a pro-active air force---but in the last many years---it has become more of a reactive air force---. Instead of leading from the front---it is waiting to be lead and guided into what direction that it needs to go----it is like a cow lost in a pasture.

Who knows better than the paf that if its funds are not spent in a timely manner---they will be used in other places by someone else.

Seems like there is a lack of leadership in the air force in the top brass---a lack of focus---a lack of direction and a will to take charge and do something.

Mastan bahi MMRCA or not . IAF will get additional 60-70 MKIs which is another 3-4 squadrons . One squadron of mki capable of creating havoc deep inside territory . Nw add 40 tejas to be added to our fleet . Tejas are western configurations . So we already more or less compensated our MMRCA . The worries of migs retirements will be met wotj 4++ and 5th generation fighters namely rafale and pakfa as our fingers crossed till 2022 . Later whole lots of fighters like presumed FGFA , tejas mk2 AMCA to be ment for mass production . So catching up with iaf is mere impossible . Untill u buy j31 in large numbers but even then our BVR and wvr warfare will be sharpened with super sukois and pakfa variants . Better tjing will be to focus on f16 and upgrade then as JF17 number superiority (for what it is ment for) will be matched by mk1 and mk1-P

 

[MastanKhan]

Yeah, just move on, it's what I've started to do.


You realize attacking someone personally is against forum rules, especially if they have an official title? Calm down, this is a forum for enthusiasts, nothing more. People are welcome to come and go as they please, and even if he didn't have the title, what he said probably wouldn't change anything.

Hi,

There is no personal attack---it is only against the title-----and what am I asking----only to do better---so to ask to do a better job is a threat or an insult.

Mastan bahi MMRCA or not . IAF will get additional 60-70 MKIs which is another 3-4 squadrons . One squadron of mki capable of creating havoc deep inside territory . Nw add 40 tejas to be added to our fleet . Tejas are western configurations . So we already more or less compensated our MMRCA . The worries of migs retirements will be met wotj 4++ and 5th generation fighters namely rafale and pakfa as our fingers crossed till 2022 . Later whole lots of fighters like presumed FGFA , tejas mk2 AMCA to be ment for mass production . So catching up with iaf is mere impossible . Untill u buy j31 in large numbers but even then our BVR and wvr warfare will be sharpened with super sukois and pakfa variants . Better tjing will be to focus on f16 and upgrade then as JF17 number superiority (for what it is ment for) will be matched by mk1 and mk1-P

Hi,

We don't need to catch up to IAF----we just need an X number of certain aircraft to counter the threat----.

 

[melb4aust]

Hi,

Thank you very much for your post----. The more I delve into this mmrca deal---the more I feel that it is a sabotage on paf's future procurements.

My question to myself is---is the enemy at a loss without a mmrca
is its current strength any weaker without mmrca
can it survive maintain and manage superiority without mmrca
does it already have superiority in the arena without mrca

and the answer to all these questions is a big NO----
the enemy is not at a loss without mmrca
its current strength is not any weaker without mmrca
it can survive maintain and manage superiority without mmrca
it already has superiority without mmrca

So---then my next question was----what was this mmrca all about.
Why would india involve every major manufacturer of the world except china for 5 years and that also for on 126 aircraft----.

To me there is only one reason----as they keep busy with the drama of vetting out the right aircraft---that will keep the competitors away from making any offers to Pakistan.

It would also keep the Pakistan air force on a limb if it fell into that trap---and it did----. And the most important thing that it would do is---that the funds for the procurement would be religated for something else.

Keeping mmrca deal in the front---and putting it in limbo would still keep the energy of pakistan air force focused on the procurement of mmrca----and thus making them lose valuable time and money in the process.

It was made to understand---that without mmrca---IAF is maybe sort of weak and has no teeth----and without mmrca---it would be easy game----and mmrca is something out of this world that will bring IAF out of dormancy and make something out of it.

Paf got ensnared in the mmrca web---and all its game plan and dealing were focused and directed towards the end result of mmrca----resulting in a limbo in its own procurement.

So---the end result----IAF did not lose anything---and the Paf---lost ground----. As it has not procured a suitable air superiority aircraft----it has fallen back as many years in strength----.

As I wrote 7---8 years ago---get a new aircraft---it will take you 5 to 10 years to integrate.

So---basically---the paf is in a blind and is confused----. Because the 5th gen aircraft is about 10 years away----and so damned if you do it and damned if you don't----ie---buy a 4 or a 4.5 gen aircraft.

Many are still unsure whether the MMRCA saga has ended or is still up and running.

The concerns and observations stated above are reasonably valid against the current standing of MMRCA deal. God knows whether, PAF became a victim of being played or they were outsmarting Indians. However in both situations a further time gap re-established to counter quality and to neutralize air superiority of IAF.

Right now PAF is not blind but seems rather confused in a sense, believed to have decided to rely on JF-17 until a 5th generation fighter jet matures to be integrated. Thus skipping 4 or 4.5 gen aircraft integration. And how costly is that going to prove, time will tell.

Please do not expect much from them being on defensive doctrine. May be later in time they will focus on such changes.

 

[MastanKhan]

There are only 4 options.....
1) Add more F-16s
2) Add more JF-17 block2 and block3
3) J-10c /F-10c
3) J-11D / J-16

FBC-1/JH-7A was rejected by PAF/PN due to under power engine.
JH-7B new engine is in development stages and not going to be ready until 2018.

Hi,

If the paf procured and operated the A5 Fantan for years---it has no excuse against the Jh7B.

That dog---the A5 Fantan---what was its strike radius---300 kilometers or 300 miles---what a joke that aircraft was.

So---if it orders the JH7B now---that is when it will start to get them---.

And what is the big deal with under powered engine----Phantoms flew for a long time under powered---the F14's flew a longtime that way---and the fabled JF17's are flying the same way----so no big deal----.

 

[war&peace]

The confusion will end this December when Putin meets PM . Either we will be getting bumper arms deals with Russia or only a deal on helicopters and on Medium Transport Aircraft. In the second case ,we will see Pakistan procuring migs from Russia by 2016. (No flankers because Russia knows it will still earn billions by just doing an upgrade to Indian Flankers.)

How deluded hindu you are..... Pakistan will buy Migs from Russia. Pakistan is not india to waste money on Migs, JF-17 is better than most of Migs and JF-17 III is going to be much more capable than the best Mig. Only Su-35 is acceptable offer Russia and they offered to Pakistan.

 

[me_itsme]

How deluded hindu you are..... Pakistan will buy Migs from Russia. Pakistan is not india to waste money on Migs, JF-17 is better than most of Migs and JF-17 III is going to be much more capable than the best Mig. Only Su-35 is acceptable offer Russia and they offered to Pakistan.

Dude with comments like this you really need to stop calling others deluded, seriously damn!!.