A counter challenge!

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Salim,
Quaid-e-Azam was not a mohajir he was from Karachi.

You asked what is MQM.MQM stands for Mutahida Qaumi Movement means United National Movement there is no discrimination in Pakistan there might be some differences but as you can see that MQM is in Government and according to democracy it is ruling the mohajir dominant areas.my half family lives in Punjab and half in Sindh I am a mohajir and I know when my family migrated from India it was Punjab and Sindh that welcomed us as I have said before that we might have few differences amongst us but at the end of the day we all are Pakistanis and Mr.Altaf Hussain also always say this.

Jinnah was born as Mahomedali Jinnahbhai in Wazir Mansion, Karachi,Sindh—then a province of the Bombay Presidency of British India. Although his earliest school records were to state that he was born on October 20, 1875, he himself later in life would give December 25, 1876 as his official date of birth.

Jinnah was the eldest of seven children born to Mithibai and Jinnahbhai Poonja. His father, Jinnahbhai (1857–1901), was a prosperous Gujarati merchant who had moved to Sindh from Kathiawar, Gujarat shortly before Jinnah's birth.

The firstborn Jinnah was soon joined by six siblings—brothers Ahmad Ali, Bunde Ali, and Rahmat Ali, and sisters Maryam, Fatima and Shireen. Jinnah's family belonged to the Ismaili Khoja branch of Shi'a Islam, though Jinnah later converted to Twelver Shi'a Islam. Their mother tongue was Gujarati, however, in time they also came to speak Kutchi, Sindhi and English.[7] The young Jinnah, a restless student, studied at several schools: at the Sindh Madrasatul-Islam in Karachi; briefly at the Gokal Das Tej Primary School in Bombay; and finally at the Christian Missionary Society High School in Karachi, where, at age sixteen, he passed the matriculation examination of the University of Bombay.

So, born in Karachi, from a Gujarati family which migrated and then a Bombayite!

Mohajirs are Pakistanis. Have I stated otherwise?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

also a Islamic state provides more rights to minorities than a secular state so we are proud that Pakistan is a Islamic state

I would not like to get into this since this has been well debated in various forums and well covered in the Pakistani media including on the petition sent by the Christian Bishop to the UN and the suicide of Bishop John Joseph!

All one has to check is the Pakistani Christian websites and forums!

Have u ever heard of Hindu-Muslim or Muslim-Sikh or Muslim-Christian clash in Pakistan?
This is what our religion teaches us.

If the minorities are a minuscule and are no "threat" or made silent with fear by the Hudood being applied at the drop of a hat, how can there be even a whimper.

But have you heard of the Shia Sunni clashes and riots?

Good reasons too. The Shias are not just a handful really! They can stand up to what they feel is their rights!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Er...with that I would have to strongly disagree.

Both in theory and in practice, this is totally false.

It is not false in theory, though it would depend upon which theory (interpretation) you were looking at.

 

[Awesome]

It's sort of incoherent. Can't really tell who is the article really attacking Mohajirs, Islam, everything?

I agree with Blain. The discrepancy between locals and muhajirs has minimized significantly amongst the younger folks.

I was recently hired into a Pakistani company and this old HR dude while going through my documents stumbled upon my Dad's birth place and he did quite outwardly repeat "Jhansi, UP India". Then he went quiet.

Mohajirs are quite mixed up with wherever they settled. You goto Interior Sindh and you can't tell them apart from the Sindhis. You can't tell me apart from the Lahoris. I know someone who has Khan under their name and is from that Patody place.

There was has been an equal amount of assimilation going on from both sides. A lot of decades have past since the partition. I'm not a mohajir who is getting free land any more. I'm not the smartest guy in town any more and definitely not the richest.

 

[salman nedian]

There has never been mass killings of Christians in Pakistan as in India we saw. There has never been a shia-sunni clash in Pakistan what u are talking about few incidents which was individual acts and the involved people were punished. But in India we see that Bal Thakre is free and allowed to do what he wants

All the Mandirs,gurdwaras,Churches are well protected in Pakistan.

you talked about Hudood ordinance i think u r talking about the Punishment of "Tauheen-e-Risalat" this law is for maintaining the harmony and respect the religion of others.

What would hindus do if some one say something wrong to their religion? "Tauheen-e-Risalat" just prevents that.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

There has never been mass killings of Christians in Pakistan as in India we saw. There has never been a shia-sunni clash in Pakistan what u are talking about few incidents which was individual acts and the involved people were punished. But in India we see that Bal Thakre is free and allowed to do what he wants

All the Mandirs,gurdwaras,Churches are well protected in Pakistan.

you talked about Hudood ordinance i think u r talking about the Punishment of "Tauheen-e-Risalat" this law is for maintaining the harmony and respect the religion of others.

What would hindus do if some one say something wrong to their religion? "Tauheen-e-Risalat" just prevents that.

As I have said earlier, you have to have a sizeable numbers of minorities to go on a rampage. Unfortunately, the minorities in Pakistan are but a handful and silenced as in the Ayub Masih case.

As far as Mandirs and Gurudwaras are concerned, I have given the news from the Malaysia media about the temple being razed down as also the case of the Nankana Saheb requires no elaboration. The vandalism of Church on a trumped up case as was proved later is adequate to indicate the protection given! And to imagine, so much of turmoil against such a meagre handful. If their size was any larger, then the vandalism and indignities would be colossal.

Right there has been no serious Sunni Shia riots. The Pakistan media is wrong. They are mere storm in a teacup and fine, I will believe, that the Pakistan media is running riot with glee!

I am sure you are aware of the Ayub Masih case and the Hudood. And I am sure you are aware of the case of Rasheed Masih and Salem Masih and also the Saint Dominic's Church Bahawalpur case Therefore, I am sure that you are aware of what I am saying.

I am deliberately not giving links and just alluding to the issues, so as not to inflame!

If things are said against any religion, it sure will inflame, be it Christian, Moslem or Hindu. But to apply a religious law on people who do not follow that religion means that, by proxy, the person who does not follow the religion is being forced to accept that religion! Civil Laws should be adequate to ensure that communal harmony is maintained.

Look, I have made my point and would prefer not to drag this any further, unless you prefer to do so.

I am sure all this is not contributing to anything worthwhile excepting letting out some pent up bile.

 

[salman nedian]

As I have said earlier, you have to have a sizeable numbers of minorities to go on a rampage. Unfortunately, the minorities in Pakistan are but a handful and silenced as in the Ayub Masih case.

As far as Mandirs and Gurudwaras are concerned, I have given the news from the Malaysia media about the temple being razed down as also the case of the Nankana Saheb requires no elaboration. The vandalism of Church on a trumped up case as was proved later is adequate to indicate the protection given! And to imagine, so much of turmoil against such a meagre handful. If their size was any larger, then the vandalism and indignities would be colossal.

Right there has been no serious Sunni Shia riots. The Pakistan media is wrong. They are mere storm in a teacup and fine, I will believe, that the Pakistan media is running riot with glee!

I am sure you are aware of the Ayub Masih case and the Hudood. And I am sure you are aware of the case of Rasheed Masih and Salem Masih and also the Saint Dominic's Church Bahawalpur case Therefore, I am sure that you are aware of what I am saying.

I am deliberately not giving links and just alluding to the issues, so as not to inflame!

If things are said against any religion, it sure will inflame, be it Christian, Moslem or Hindu. But to apply a religious law on people who do not follow that religion means that, by proxy, the person who does not follow the religion is being forced to accept that religion! Civil Laws should be adequate to ensure that communal harmony is maintained.

Look, I have made my point and would prefer not to drag this any further, unless you prefer to do so.

I am sure all this is not contributing to anything worthwhile excepting letting out some pent up bile.

Watch the videos in the thread "demolition of Babri mosque" you can not provide evidance of such incidents in Pakistan

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I can give better - the Pakistani media!

We are getting nowhere!

I have no desire to go round and round a circle.

Anything more spectacular would elicit my attention.

Or else, thank you!

It is getting a trifle boring and a bit of a time waste.

 

[salman nedian]

I also dont have any interest in it but if you ask questions about my Country i would answer them you were asking about MQM i answered that.

First see what your country is doing then point out fingures to others.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Good for you!

That is why I am here.

To understand Pakistan and also to know some people who are beyond the legacy of history and are looking forward to better times!

People like Asim and Agnostic, who are as proud to be Pakistanis and maybe more than you, but who have not lost their sense of balance and realise:

God give me the serenity to accept things which cannot be changed; Give me courage to change things which must be changed; And the wisdom to distinguish one from the other!

and not think that a Messiah in himself has arrived!

Peace be on You!

 

[salman nedian]

Good for you!

That is why I am here.

To understand Pakistan and also to know some people who are beyond the legacy of history and are looking forward to better times!

People like Asim and Agnostic, who are as proud to be Pakistanis and maybe more than you, but who have not lost their sense of balance and realise:

God give me the serenity to accept things which cannot be changed; Give me courage to change things which must be changed; And the wisdom to distinguish one from the other!

and not think that a Messiah in himself has arrived!

Peace be on You!

What acceptance you people have. you cant accept the mass killings of Muslims and Christians publically.

what can one say if other person have in mind that he is right and others are wrong.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

What acceptance you people have. you cant accept the mass killings of Muslims and Christians publically.

what can one say if other person have in mind that he is right and others are wrong.

Oh wow! A Daniel come to Judgement!

You can't even understand what I wrote!

Or is it that you have time at hand and wish to indulge in irrelevant interaction till urgent matters beckon?

You must be the feudal landed gentry of Pakistan, who have all the time in hand since the others are toiling for your bread instead!

And that is why you feel that I am right and others are wrong!

Pettiness is your forte! Not mine!

Get back to the topic is what the Webmaster has said!

Babri Mazjid and its nuances! Taking it that you have not comprehended Webmaster's English!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Salim,

I would like to point out this article, and the responses to it, as an example of how discourse can take place over even incendiary articles, reports.

For the most part posters have stuck to attempting to rebut the article, its premises and conclusions, without resorting to tangential arguments of, "XYZ has it even worse, or is the same way".

While I am not in anyway suggesting that articles/reports, caste, dowry etc, posted by Muslim/Pakistani posters are reflective of India/Hinduism, I do think that following such a format of solely focusing on the points raised in such articles and attempting to rebut them leads to more civil and educational discussion, which is what I was attempting to communicate in the "caste thread".