60 years on, 87 Kashmiris want independence

[Contrarian]

Nearly the whole Kashmiri population is against the occupation of Kashmir whereas a tiny part of the baloch population wants independence... Most balochis are happy with pakistani rule as are Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir.

Dont joke with me, the Baloch's happy with Pakistan. I could give you numerous examples, but i think one will suffice, the Pakistani Army was not even permitted in some areas, where the writ of the state ended.

Dont spout crap.

 

[Contrarian]

Yeah okay... if you say so... whatever you want... you see you are the guests here so we try to please you here...

BUT, the problem is, this is NOT your forum. You are a guest here as well, hehe.

 

[haviZsultan]

Dont joke with me, the Baloch's happy with Pakistan. I could give you numerous examples, but i think one will suffice, the Pakistani Army was not even permitted in some areas, where the writ of the state ended.

Dont spout crap.

Yeah exactly don't spout crap when you have no idea about Balochistan! Yeah they have a jirga and the army simply orders them what to do when needed... its not because they are against us its because of their culture and the way they are used to doing things. Its only in some areas in Balochistan. So you are saying that most people in Balochistan want freedom ... fine prove it! Lets find some surveys on Balochistan population and shove them in ur smug face! Don't make me laugh... we don't treat people like slaves as Indians do and we respect peoples cultures and beliefs!

Hey, Mishra is a girls name right! Are you a girl?

 

[khanbhai]

Dont joke with me, the Baloch's happy with Pakistan. I could give you numerous examples, but i think one will suffice, the Pakistani Army was not even permitted in some areas, where the writ of the state ended.

Dont spout crap.

come on give us some examples

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

But the problem is, Bihar has no insurgency problem !! Bihari people have the most important positions throughout India and such a problem has never been indicated, most of the IAS and IPS officers are from Bihar .

What, so now we are denying the Maoist insurgency? Having government officials from a particular area does not mean anything. We have had several generals and officers from the Tribal areas (the first prime minister in this government, Jamali, was a Baloch I believe, the current Gov. of the NWFP is from FATA) - that hasn't stopped the violence there has it. Blain might be able to shed more light on the numbers of Baloch in the military if you really think thats important.

That is the aim actually, that the economic development will change people's minds there, this is the same policy that China has adopted in Tibet as well. Over time, with newer generations of Kashmiri's will enjoy more and more economic prosperity, and that will change their minds about independence. Infact i read a report by a Chinese think tank that they predict that for Tibet it will take 20-30 years more.

I feel the same about Kashmir. Its the constant presence of militants, bombs and Army that makes them dislike India.

That economic development might make the Kashmiris change their mind is still a theory. Quebec came very very close to independence despite all the "economic advantages" of the West. The division of Kashmir between India and Pakistan, the separation of families, the continued bonds between them - these factors add more complexity to the issue that might not allow for the "healing of all wounds" through solely "economic development" - but that is a theory too.

At this point the most recent Indian survey (despite joey's protestations) seems to indicate an exceptionally high percentage of Kashmiris wanting Independence. Only time will tell.

As far as what the Chinese have done in Tibet, that makes for a quite a horror story. The Indians wont be able to get away with those kinds of atrocities because it will untie Pakistan's hands with respect to supporting the Kashmiris. Unlike Kashmir, Xingiang and Tibet do not have another country, with deep cultural and religious ties to the people, disputing the region as theirs.

Sorry mate, that might be your opinion, but to the Pakistani military, Kashmir is a verry strategic chunk of land that they have to have, i dont need to list out why Kashmir is strategically important.

Perhaps, but at the end of the day our position is based upon the principle that the Kashmiri people need to be united (in some fashion) and their wishes acceded to, as the unfinished business of partition. The U.N resolutions both countries are party to are based upon a right of the Kashmiris to decide their fate. We cannot possibly legally, or morally, stake a claim to the territory in violation of that principle, no matter how strategic the land is. The only option available, if the Kashmiris change their mind about independence from India, is war, and it doesn't seem likely that either side is going to be able to manage a military victory that would change the status quo.

 

[Contrarian]

fine prove it! Lets find some surveys on Balochistan population and shove them in ur smug face! Don't make me laugh... we don't treat people like slaves as Indians do and we respect peoples cultures and beliefs!

There could have been a survey, but lets not forget, Pakistan is a dictatorship, there could not possibly be any kind of fair survey or polls, the results will always be skewed!

Hey, Mishra is a girls name right! Are you a girl?

Where'd you get that? Mishra is a surname its not the first name.

 

[Contrarian]

What, so now we are denying the Maoist insurgency? Having government officials from a particular area does not mean anything. We have had several generals and officers from the Tribal areas (the first prime minister in this government, Jamali, was a Baloch I believe, the current Gov. of the NWFP is from FATA) - that hasn't stopped the violence there has it. Blain might be able to shed more light on the numbers of Baloch in the military if you really think thats important.

I dont need the military numbers, but this is not about military generals, the IAS and IPS practically run India, they have the power to do almost anything here. But thats not important, Maoist problem is not stemming from Bihar, they have done some lootings in Bihar and Jharkhand but the problems are comming from the central Indian states, which is the recruiting ground for them. Bihar has no insurgency. Maoists are simply trying to increase their area of operation and have started operating there since a while now, but that is not an insurgency.

That economic development might make the Kashmiris change their mind is still a theory. Quebec came very very close to independence despite all the "economic advantages" of the West. The division of Kashmir between India and Pakistan, the separation of families, the continued bonds between them - these factors add more complexity to the issue that might not allow for the "healing of all wounds" through solely "economic development" - but that is a theory too.

Yes, but it sure as hell would make a good dent. See what i mean, they are offered the chance of prosperity and a good life, education for their children, jobs across the country at the same time, the army is slowly removed, and a semblance of normal life again takes root. This is already being tested, and is already working, the number of people who wanted freedom has declined by quite a bit from earlier times, there is more tip offs by local people about terrorist activities, and the terrorists activities have played no small part in this. THey have killed, looted many homes there, thus they have lost a part of their base.

When this coupled with what i have mentioned above takes place, there will be a bigger dent in the terrorists sympathisers, maybe in one decade, there is a drop and 50% of the people still support their accession to Pakistan, it will be bloody big improvement. Do you see what im getting at? Its all about time, India has time on its side, and Pakistan does not. The more they wait, the looser their grip will become.

As far as what the Chinese have done in Tibet, that makes for a quite a horror story. The Indians wont be able to get away with those kinds of atrocities because it will untie Pakistan's hands with respect to supporting the Kashmiris. Unlike Kashmir, Xingiang and Tibet do not have another country, with deep cultural and religious ties to the people, disputing the region as theirs.

That is where Global considerations come into play. Why do you think every terrorist activity in the world throws up one link-Pakistan. Its because of this, now that Pakistan is trying to integrate itself with the global economy, they cannot do it overtly as they used to, they will have to mellow down or risk being called a terrorist state/failed state/whatever. Gone are those days when Pakistan could do what it wanted, if Pakistan wants to survive today, it will have to take America's WoT and Economy seriously, and both dictate that terrorist support will have to go down.

This is not to mention that Mushy has realised that terrorists may bite him back too, as is evident from the recent events, that radicalization of Pakistan's populace is simply not worth it, as his predecessors have done.

All in all, as i said above, India has time on its side, Pakistan doesnt.

Perhaps, but at the end of the day our position is based upon the principle that the Kashmiri people need to be united (in some fashion) and their wishes acceded to, as the unfinished business of partition. The U.N resolutions both countries are party to are based upon a right of the Kashmiris to decide their fate. We cannot possibly legally, or morally, stake a claim to the territory in violation of that principle, no matter how strategic the land is. The only option available, if the Kashmiris change their mind about independence from India, is war, and it doesn't seem likely that either side is going to be able to manage a military victory that would change the status quo.

Mate, you cannot, for that matter no country in Asia can take away Kashmir from India militarily, the sooner you accept that, the better.

And trust me, Pakistan wants Kashmir for its land, not the people, same for India, though now its become a matter of ego for the nations.

 

[haviZsultan]

There could have been a survey, but lets not forget, Pakistan is a dictatorship, there could not possibly be any kind of fair survey or polls, the results will always be skewed!


Where'd you get that? Mishra is a surname its not the first name.

Pakistan is not a dictatiorship... Why are you constantly trying to change the subject? Well, is'nt India a dictatorship? Your country is holding Kashmir against the will of the Kashmiri people, stealing from them and torturing and killing anyone who gets in the way or says directly that they don't want to be part of India? Is'nt that dictatorship. Isn't telling someone to do something they don't want to do a dictatorship?

And did you forget the treatment of minorities in India? I know so many people leaving your country even today? Why do so many people from minorities say that they do not feel "accepted" or feel discriminated in India?

Yeah u want to keep the circle of conversation on Pakistan because you want to ignore your own problems.

Your approach tells us you have learned nothing from your history. Please continue and you can come back and moan when another Pakistan is formed

So Malay is a name? Naah u know that does'nt sound patriotic... and people may mistake you as a Malaysian. Why weren't you named Mallu? Mallu would tell us that you are a Malabhari from Bharat... and no one would "ever ask you who you are"

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I dont need the military numbers, but this is not about military generals, the IAS and IPS practically run India, they have the power to do almost anything here. But thats not important, Maoist problem is not stemming from Bihar, they have done some lootings in Bihar and Jharkhand but the problems are comming from the central Indian states, which is the recruiting ground for them. Bihar has no insurgency. Maoists are simply trying to increase their area of operation and have started operating there since a while now, but that is not an insurgency.

It could also be argued that the few militant groups left in Balochistan are being primarily supported by the Sardars like Nawab Bugti, who saw nothing to gain from development in the province except an end to their cruel rule, with some elements that are genuinely grieved due to the lack of development in the province.

By some estimates, the Pashtun actually outnumber the Baloch in Balochistan, and they definitely outnumber the Baloch in Quetta (the Capital of the province). These demographic changes may be further exacerbated if and when Gawadar comes online and starts functioning properly (another debate in itself) in which case there really isn't much to this idea of a "Baloch insurgency" for an "independent Baluchistan".

Yes, but it sure as hell would make a good dent. See what i mean, they are offered the chance of prosperity and a good life, education for their children, jobs across the country at the same time, the army is slowly removed, and a semblance of normal life again takes root. This is already being tested, and is already working, the number of people who wanted freedom has declined by quite a bit from earlier times, there is more tip offs by local people about terrorist activities, and the terrorists activities have played no small part in this. THey have killed, looted many homes there, thus they have lost a part of their base.

When this coupled with what i have mentioned above takes place, there will be a bigger dent in the terrorists sympathisers, maybe in one decade, there is a drop and 50% of the people still support their accession to Pakistan, it will be bloody big improvement. Do you see what im getting at? Its all about time, India has time on its side, and Pakistan does not. The more they wait, the looser their grip will become.

It may make a bigger dent. That is why I pointed out the example of Quebec. You can hardly claim that the natives there were economically or politically disadvantaged, and yet they came so close. In Kashmirs case there are even more factors that allow for a perpetuation of the desire for independence.

With respect to the time issue, I am not at all sure that, given a continuation of the various cross border "confidence measures" being undertaken, time is against Pakistan. The way I look at it, the more free movement between the two Kashmir's, the more interaction between the two sides, the more bonds will be created. That means that every Kashmiri generation is going to have ties with the other side, which makes it very hard to just "forget" the fact that Kashmir is divided and unresolved. So I disagree with you completely on that.

That is where Global considerations come into play. Why do you think every terrorist activity in the world throws up one link-Pakistan. Its because of this, now that Pakistan is trying to integrate itself with the global economy, they cannot do it overtly as they used to, they will have to mellow down or risk being called a terrorist state/failed state/whatever. Gone are those days when Pakistan could do what it wanted, if Pakistan wants to survive today, it will have to take America's WoT and Economy seriously, and both dictate that terrorist support will have to go down.

This is not to mention that Mushy has realised that terrorists may bite him back too, as is evident from the recent events, that radicalization of Pakistan's populace is simply not worth it, as his predecessors have done.

All in all, as i said above, India has time on its side, Pakistan doesnt.

I was referring to global considerations when I suggested that India cannot replicate China's "achievement" in Tibet because to do so would require the kinds of horrendous tactics the Chinese have used, and India is not going to find much sympathy from the International community, complaining about cross border Pakistani support, when those kinds of atrocities are highlighted. That said, I don't think India will do what China has done in Tibet, so I don't think that you can use the Tibetan example to justify any sort of time line for change in the attitudes of the Kashmiris.

Mate, you cannot, for that matter no country in Asia can take away Kashmir from India militarily, the sooner you accept that, the better.

And trust me, Pakistan wants Kashmir for its land, not the people, same for India, though now its become a matter of ego for the nations.

I am not sure what the point of the first statement was. I don't think you read that part of my post carefully.

Again, I am not disagreeing with that opinion, but I pointed out to you that our "official position" is based on the wishes of the Kashmiri people, and Pakistan has no grounds to pursue its case once the Kashmiris decide to remain with India - which means that strategically important or not, we will have to give up our case on Indian Kashmir at that point.

 

[Always Neutral]

Pakistan is not a dictatiorship... :

Dear Dimension,

Gen. Musharraf is not a dictator ? Which DIMENSION OF SPACE DO you live in ? Well atleast Mrs Bhutto, Mr Sharif, Mr Imran Khan, Chief Justice, most newspapers in Pakistan and the world, whoEU, Commonwealth etc all think he is a dictator. Then maybe they and all of us mere mortals are fools and are mislead about him being a democratic leader.

Best Regards


Ps : That apart I think the Gen. is the best man for the present situation and his personal integrity can never be doubted.

 

[haviZsultan]

Dear Dimension,

Gen. Musharraf is not a dictator ? Which DIMENSION OF SPACE DO you live in ? Well atleast Mrs Bhutto, Mr Sharif, Mr Imran Khan, Chief Justice, most newspapers in Pakistan and the world, whoEU, Commonwealth etc all think he is a dictator. Then maybe they and all of us mere mortals are fools and are mislead about him being a democratic leader.

Best Regards


Ps : That apart I think the Gen. is the best man for the present situation and his personal integrity can never be doubted.

Sir, criticizing unneccessarily does not make you "always neutral"

He is not a dictator because he is not imposing his will on others... For example the Chief Justice issue proved that the judiciary had power and if he was a dictator he could have punished the justice no matter what everyone said. Sharif and Bhutto just want rule... they spent all their time stealing from the country and are obviously criticizing him because they want to see him in a weaker position and in truth when have they ever said anything good about the ruling group??? The world is presented a negative image of him that is why they say that otherwise he follows the will of the people. If he was a dictator you would not have heard about any opposition to him as is it is the case with the North Korean President!

The Pakistani newspapers DO NOT call him a dictator! Its the protests and bombings etc that you guys sitting far away from Pakistan hear about that help you form these vague ideas

 

[Contrarian]

Uh, now we hear, that Pakistan is not a dictatorship and India is one. I think dimension117 is trying for a record here!!

Anyways, Agonistic, lets just agree to disagree.

 

[haviZsultan]

Uh, now we hear, that Pakistan is not a dictatorship and India is one. I think dimension117 is trying for a record here!!

Anyways, Agonistic, lets just agree to disagree.

Yeah exactly, cauz Pakistan respects the culture, traditions and values of everyone who lives there and accepts them but it is only India that is holding people against their will while they yearn for freedom. The Kashmiri people have been screaming for you guys to get the army out of there which is responsible for siezure of property, rape, torture and killings. Does'nt that prove India is a dictatorship? And now don't start with Balochistan crap again which makes about 5% of Pakistans population and out of Balochistans population only 1.8% are against Pakistani rule... try to make up better stuff.

If Pakistan was a dictatorship then the chief justice would have been in jail, the press would not have been allowed to perform freely, and there would be no protests or protests would have been met by exceeding force. Now, can you say the same thing about Kashmir and how minorities are treated in your country?

 

[khanbhai]

does this poll took place in Azad Kashmir?

 

[Shivakumar]

Your approach tells us you have learned nothing from your history. Please continue and you can come back and moan when another Pakistan is formed

Remember the East Pakistan?