5th-Gen fighter plan hits hurdle as Russia hikes cost ! Chinese Ping Pong ?

[SPFG]

China Claims Innovation in J-20 Weapons Bay Design

China’s under-development J-20 combat aircraft recently demonstrated its missile-launch mechanism, which the Chinese media tout as a simple but “more efficient” design than that of the American F-22.

J-20 number 2002, one of the two prototypes that have been made known to the public, carried a short-range air-to-air missile (AAM) aft of the air intake. The missile, identified as China’s newly developed PL-10, was shown in a video inside the starboard intake weapons bay before being moved outside the airplane by an ejection system. The door of the bay then closed, leaving the missile outside, but still attached to the airframe.

This arrangement is said to allow the missile to be fired in the shortest time possible. In the F-22 design, the door of its side internal weapons bay has to remain open for the launch of a missile, thus possibly compromising its stealth capability. By contrast, the J-20 could stay stealthy throughout the missile-launch process by keeping the bay door closed.

Despite the Chinese media’s acclaim for the J-20’s missile launch mechanism, Chen Kuo-ming, senior editor with the Taiwan-based Defence International magazine, said what’s more important is whether the J-20 could fire short-range AAMs from off-boresight angles as acute as those possible from the F-22. For the moment, the PL-10 does not seem to be comparable to the AIM-9X AAM of the F-22 in respect to off-boresight capability.

The J-20 is expected to begin air-to-air weapons firing tests soon. It carries two short-range PL-10s, one in each air-intake bay, and six to eight medium-range P-12s in the main internal weapons bay below the mid-fuselage.

China Claims Innovation in J-20 Weapons Bay Design | Aviation International News

That actually a REALLY STUPID solution to simple problem.

1. With bays open for 5 secs only ground forces and an aircraft directly facing your bay can target you assuming they have sufficient L band radar. But in normal scenario you are creating in effect a bloody retractable external pylon for a 1 time use that DEFEATS the purpose of an internal bay.

2. The process involves
a> Load missile from rack
b> Open Doors
c> Deploy Missile
d> Close Doors
e> Acquire target and fire
f> Open Door
g> Retract pylon
h> Close Door

More movement make it like a cheerleader in a men's toilet!

3. Americans knew this and they made autolock and fire missile AIM 9X BLK II and JHMDS where you just need to
a> Worry about your GF/family problems as your computer auto aims the target for your lazy arse.
b> Press the trigger
c> Doors open
d> Missile runs out like a kid going to a restricted party.
e>Doors close.
f> BOOM! J20 dead!
g> You feel the need to urinate and use the technician's toolkit instead.





See Simple Science!

In 2010 the F-135 achieved 50,000 lbs or 220 KN in ideal conditions.

Actually in Combat Thrust and at Sea Level testing.

 

[SPFG]

I can only say that you are comparing the specs of a completed product to that of a evolving prototype.

None of the stuff you see on PAK-FA T-50 today is the final version.



It's not right to believe F-35 is more agile than PAK-FA.

PAK-FA Is supposed to have twin 176kN engines.

PAK FA has 147KN and planning 171KN by 2018. That is final version. India / Russia / China will sell themselves for one of these UFOs that is F22.

 

[illusion8]

Why discuss J20 in a PAKFA - India Russia thread?

Did the "Chinese ping pong" in the title mean J20?

 

[SPFG]

Why discuss J20 in a PAKFA - India Russia thread?

Did the "Chinese ping pong" in the title mean J20?

J20 is not even a proven 5th GEN aircraft. I'll put money on the original (Mig 1.44) anyday than J20.

 

[Secur]

J20 is not even a proven 5th GEN aircraft. I'll put money on the original (Mig 1.44) anyday than J20.

If you consider it as such , tell me , aren't you wasting your time discussing it in a T50/PAK-FA thread ?

 

[SPFG]

If you consider it as such , tell me , aren't you wasting your time discussing it in a T50/PAK-FA thread ?

I'm not. But you guys are. Mai toh khwabi pulao mein dum aur itaar dal raha hoon. Luv BIRYANI!

 

[Secur]

I'm not. But you guys are. Mai toh khwabi pulao mein dum aur itaar dal raha hoon. Luv BIRYANI!

You do not make three consecutive posts over a subject and then say that you weren't discussing it . Me guys ?

Why not return to the original topic ? We have a thread for J20 developments .

 

[HK Indian MBT]

Hope you guys dont Ruin my thread .Bashing at each other

 

[Gessler]

That actually a REALLY STUPID solution to simple problem.

1. With bays open for 5 secs only ground forces and an aircraft directly facing your bay can target you assuming they have sufficient L band radar. But in normal scenario you are creating in effect a bloody retractable external pylon for a 1 time use that DEFEATS the purpose of an internal bay.

2. The process involves
a> Load missile from rack
b> Open Doors
c> Deploy Missile
d> Close Doors
e> Acquire target and fire
f> Open Door
g> Retract pylon
h> Close Door

More movement make it like a cheerleader in a men's toilet!

3. Americans knew this and they made autolock and fire missile AIM 9X BLK II and JHMDS where you just need to
a> Worry about your GF/family problems as your computer auto aims the target for your lazy arse.
b> Press the trigger
c> Doors open
d> Missile runs out like a kid going to a restricted party.
e>Doors close.
f> BOOM! J20 dead!
g> You feel the need to urinate and use the technician's toolkit instead.





See Simple Science!



Actually in Combat Thrust and at Sea Level testing.

Well that is true - hanging the missile out poses a lot of risks in terms of detection.

In normal 5th gen planes, it is a 3-step process

1) Open bay
2) Release Missile
3) Close bay

In this "innovation", it is a longer 7-step process: -

1) Open bay
2) Stick missile (and launcher) out
3) Close bay
4) Release missile
5) Open bay again
6) Retract launcher
7) Close bay

I'm not sure how a 7-step process can be completed quicker than a 3-step process.

Secondly, in normal type of weapon bay design, the innards of the bay can be scanned only if your
radar is probing the plane using the 3 o'clock or 9 o' clock positions as a yardstick, or from below.
You cannot get any signature of the bay from up front or rear.

In this "innovation", the missile & it's launcher (which translates into a temporary external pylon) stick
out of the frame, and they can be seen from any direction. Left, Right, Top (not sure of this), Bottom, Front,
Back, which means getting a radar signature is easier than before.

Chinese aren't meant to innovate & invent anything. They should simply copy whatever the West does,
they'll remain safer and healthier that way.

 

[gambit]

Well that is true - hanging the missile out poses a lot of risks in terms of detection.

In normal 5th gen planes, it is a 3-step process

1) Open bay
2) Release Missile
3) Close bay

In this "innovation", it is a longer 7-step process: -

1) Open bay
2) Stick missile (and launcher) out
3) Close bay
4) Release missile
5) Open bay again
6) Retract launcher
7) Close bay

According to 'Chinese physics', the exposed missile is transparent to radar.

Secondly, in normal type of weapon bay design, the innards of the bay can be scanned only if your
radar is probing the plane using the 3 o'clock or 9 o' clock positions as a yardstick, or from below.
You cannot get any signature of the bay from up front or rear.

Once again, 'Chinese physics' rules the day.

The way 'Chinese physics' works is that if ANY Chinese make any declaration, that is the rule for the universe to obey. So if 'Chinese physics' states that an opened weapons bay can be seen by radar and if the declaration is not conditional, ie viewing direction, then the default position is that the radar will see the opened weapons bay, therefore the aircraft itself, even if the radar is pointing in the opposite direction.

But seriously...All of these arguments have been presented before. I do not understand why these guys are so resistant to what is logical and scientifically true.

 

[Gessler]

According to 'Chinese physics', the exposed missile is transparent to radar.


Once again, 'Chinese physics' rules the day.

The way 'Chinese physics' works is that if ANY Chinese make any declaration, that is the rule for the universe to obey. So if 'Chinese physics' states that an opened weapons bay can be seen by radar and if the declaration is not conditional, ie viewing direction, then the default position is that the radar will see the opened weapons bay, therefore the aircraft itself, even if the radar is pointing in the opposite direction.

But seriously...All of these arguments have been presented before. I do not understand why these guys are so resistant to what is logical and scientifically true.

'Chinese physics' claims that J-20 is capable of flying on even after the engines have failed and the
pilot has died. This is because according to 'Chinese physics' J-20 is not affected by gravity. The unique,
innovative and next-generation stealth materials applied on the plane's body make sure of it that
earth's gravitational field does not see or act on J-20 at all.

--

I'm pretty sure the "innovative" weapon launch design increases risk of radar detection by atleast 50%.

 

[senkakudefender]

If you consider it as such , tell me , aren't you wasting your time discussing it in a T50/PAK-FA thread ?

Why are you getting wrked up over this? The design though is similr.

 

[senkakudefender]

J20 can carry only 4 BVRAAMS and 2 AAM mounted on a retractable external pylon.