49 years before Tejas, India had its own fighter — Marut

[zebra7]

Dr. Tank, even while designing what he did for the Luftwaffe, did not have a specific engine in mind, so there goes your theory. You need to read up on the various combinations tried, until they settled on the happy final choice for the 190. The same thing happened with the Marut. Unfortunately, unlike his earlier experience, he did not now have the full attention of engine makers; in fact, they treated him with cavalier disdain.

Nowhere does one size fit all.

Ok here is my theory.

Experience with the license production of the Vampire and the Gnat led HAL to accept an IAF requirement of an advanced combat aircraft. Dr Kurt Tank (of Focke Wolfe fame) and his deputy Herr Mittlehuber were invited in Aug 56 to head the joint design team (Willy Messerschmidt having refused the offer and accepting the Spanish Government’s (later taken over by Egypt, Syria and Yemen (UAR)) offer to head the design of the Helwan fighter HA-003).


Originally planned to fly with the 3700 Kg afterburning Orpheus B.Or 12 (Bristol Orpheus) engine and let down by successive failures to acquire the RB-153, SNECMA Atar 09K-53. the super Atar M-53 and finally the RB-199, the HF-24 entered service and served for the rest of its 15 year career with the critically underpowered license built Orpheus 703.

The aircraft will be remembered for its superb handling being called the “Super Hunter” by its pilots. A promising design that could cruise supersonic at 40,000 feet, the Marut finally met a disappointing end thanks to un-kept promises and international politics that embroiled HAL and several successive engine vendors. Thus ended India’s first true fighter design.

source HAL HF-24 Marut - Where the wind blows

Here are the specs of the engine used in Marut -- uprated engine of GNAT -- Mk.703: Rated at 4,850 lbf (21.57 kN)

But Marut was desinged around Orpheus Bo.12 rated at 6,810 lbf (30.29 kN) dry and 8,170 lbf (36.34 kN) with afterburning.

So My theory as described by you, DR. Kurt Tank designed the Marut around Orpheus BO.12.

Nowhere does one size fit all.

Never did I claimed that, but many times the engine could be replaced with another one, and in that case the parameter to take care of is wt., thrust, air massflow and CG of the plane with that engine.

Dr. Tank, even while designing what he did for the Luftwaffe, did not have a specific engine in mind, so there goes your theory. You need to read up on the various combinations tried, until they settled on the happy final choice for the 190. The same thing happened with the Marut. Unfortunately, unlike his earlier experience, he did not now have the full attention of engine makers; in fact, they treated him with cavalier disdain.

No plane is designed without an engine. And the theory that after designing the plane without any specific engine, and afterward find the suitable engine is a flawed one, because the CG -- Center of Gravity have to be taken in consideration, and the wing design could only be made when you know, what is your thrust, and without knowing the Mass flow of the air though the air intake, the airintake nozzle could not be designed, and without knowing the wt. of the engine itself, how could the designer design the airframe.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Ok here is my theory.

Experience with the license production of the Vampire and the Gnat led HAL to accept an IAF requirement of an advanced combat aircraft. Dr Kurt Tank (of Focke Wolfe fame) and his deputy Herr Mittlehuber were invited in Aug 56 to head the joint design team (Willy Messerschmidt having refused the offer and accepting the Spanish Government’s (later taken over by Egypt, Syria and Yemen (UAR)) offer to head the design of the Helwan fighter HA-003).


Originally planned to fly with the 3700 Kg afterburning Orpheus B.Or 12 (Bristol Orpheus) engine and let down by successive failures to acquire the RB-153, SNECMA Atar 09K-53. the super Atar M-53 and finally the RB-199, the HF-24 entered service and served for the rest of its 15 year career with the critically underpowered license built Orpheus 703.

The aircraft will be remembered for its superb handling being called the “Super Hunter” by its pilots. A promising design that could cruise supersonic at 40,000 feet, the Marut finally met a disappointing end thanks to un-kept promises and international politics that embroiled HAL and several successive engine vendors. Thus ended India’s first true fighter design.

source HAL HF-24 Marut - Where the wind blows

Here are the specs of the engine used in Marut -- uprated engine of GNAT -- Mk.703: Rated at 4,850 lbf (21.57 kN)

But Marut was desinged around Orpheus Bo.12 rated at 6,810 lbf (30.29 kN) dry and 8,170 lbf (36.34 kN) with afterburning.

So My theory as described by you, DR. Kurt Tank designed the Marut around Orpheus BO.12.



Never did I claimed that, but many times the engine could be replaced with another one, and in that case the parameter to take care of is wt., thrust, air massflow and CG of the plane with that engine.




No plane is designed without an engine. And the theory that after designing the plane without any specific engine, and afterward find the suitable engine is a flawed one, because the CG -- Center of Gravity have to be taken in consideration, and the wing design could only be made when you know, what is your thrust, and without knowing the Mass flow of the air though the air intake, the airintake nozzle could not be designed, and without knowing the wt. of the engine itself, how could the designer design the airframe.

The next time we have to design an aircraft, remind me to put up your name for the short-list.

OK, that was mean and does not acknowledge the genuine homework you have done. The bigger Bristol engine had been thought of, but it was never finalised, and there were other deals in the offing because of which it was not to be sold to India.

More later.

 

[zebra7]

What was this Marut able of do any way
If think it will be master of dropping firecrackers on enemy

Marut Airframe was the cleanest airframe of its time. Its airframe was designed to sustain the speed of Mach 2.5-3.0.
At low speed, no plane could catch it, and had the superb handling quality, and it was very survivable aircraft, demonstrated several times, but once, during the mishap, it did survive 10.5 G, though its airframe was designed for 6 G.

The next time we have to design an aircraft, remind me to put up your name for the short-list.

My name is Tejas.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Marut Airframe was the cleanest airframe of its time. Its airframe was designed to sustain the speed of Mach 2.5-3.0.
At low speed, no plane could catch it, and had the superb handling quality, and it was very survivable aircraft, demonstrated several times, but once, during the mishap, it did survive 10.5 G, though its airframe was designed for 6 G.



My name is Tejas.

LOL.

OK, chill. I will get back on this thread, but just now, there are other personal concerns uppermost in my mind.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Marut was a 2nd generation fighter.

While efforts were made to improve it, sadly there were no effort put into making a third generation fighter.

Instead, we directly jumped into building a 4th generation fighter and currently attempting to improve it to 4.5 generation.

 

[jamal18]

I think we have to realize that fighter aircraft development for countries that don't make it at present is more of a political need than military. The military will always prefer one 'out of the box', one that has a proven record.

The government must push the military and force it's development. The government should have continued with fighter development whether the military wanted it or not.

Initially it will never be a rewarding process.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@MilSpec @Joe Shearer
@zebra7 @dadeechi @Nilgiri @eyeswideshut
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
India had to face very tough times -- Economically in the Sixties and Seventies
Most people do not appreciate that

Three wars 62 -65 --71 and Two Droughts--1966 and 67
had made the economic condition really bad

Then came the political instability in the country from 1975 to 1980
This political instability had been generated due to BAD economic conditions

Emergency and everything after that which happened in the country set us back till 1980

R and D for fighter planes was not a priority

Secondly the Nuclear program had begun in the mid sixties which had its own expenditure

After 1974 Nuclear Test ; Western aid was also cut off

The Space program and The Integrated Guided Missile development program IGMDP
were Other priorities

The Government departments had poor salaries till 1997 when the Pay commission
made the situation somewhat better

And finally After Soviet Invasion of Afganistan ; Pakistan began receiving massive aid
from 1980 onwards -- F 16 s era had begun

India had to respond with our own purchases and Build up
With Mig 23 ; Mig 25 Mig 27; Mig 29 ;Jaguar and Mirage 2000

Defence preparedness after 1980 became the top priority

R and D took a back seat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.punemirror.in/others/sunday-read/The-last-jet-engine-LAUGH/articleshow/44786038.cms

We should be glad that LCA programme was finally started in 1983 by
Dr Arunachalam who CONVINCED the Government of Indira Gandhi
how far we had finally fallen behind and something should be done

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is an article from 1986

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...tic-hassles-serious-differences/1/348124.html

 

[Joe Shearer]

@MilSpec @Joe Shearer
@zebra7
India had to face very tough times -- Economically in the Sixties and Seventies
Most people do not appreciate that

Three wars 62 -65 --71 and Two Droughts--1966 and 67
had made the economic condition really made

Then came the political instability in the country from 1975 to 1980
This political instability had been generated due to BAD economic conditions

Emergency and everything after that which happened in the country set us back till 1980

R and D for fighter planes was not a priority

Secondly the Nuclear program had begun in the mid sixties which had its own expenditure

After 1974 Nuclear ;Test Western aid was also cut off

The Space program and The Integrated Guided Missile development program IGMDP
were Other priorities

The Government departments had poor salaries till 1997 when the Pay commission
made the situation somewhat better

And finally After Soviet Invasion of Afganistan ; Pakistan began receiving massive aid
from 1980 onwards -- F 16 s era had begun

India had to respond with our own purchases and Build up
With Mig 23 ; Mig 25 Mig 27; Mig 29 ;Jaguar and Mirage 2000

Defence preparedness after 1980 became the top priority

R and D took a back seat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.punemirror.in/others/sunday-read/The-last-jet-engine-LAUGH/articleshow/44786038.cms

We should be glad that LCA programme was finally started in 1983 by
Dr Arunachalam who CONVINCED the Government of Indira Gandhi
how far we had finally fallen behind and something should be done

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is article from 1986

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...tic-hassles-serious-differences/1/348124.html

And do you know how they hunted out Aruna? It was a man-hunt by bribe-seeking bastards. He finally quit and joined academics, but it was in the US, so guess what they said?

I could go on and on.

Have you kids heard of PL-480? Or of ship-to-mouth existence? That was what C. Subramaniam attacked, bless him for a hero, a forgotten one, but a hero nevertheless. Or of poor Sachin Chaudhuri who devalued the rupee and was hated for that for the rest of his life?

What tales I could tell.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

And do you know how they hunted out Aruna? It was a man-hunt by bribe-seeking bastards. He finally quit and joined academics, but it was in the US, so guess what they said?

I could go on and on.

Have you kids heard of PL-480? Or of ship-to-mouth existence? That was what C. Subramaniam attacked, bless him for a hero, a forgotten one, but a hero nevertheless. Or of poor Sachin Chaudhuri who devalued the rupee and was hated for that for the rest of his life?

What tales I could tell.

Politics in Government departments is another matter

We can say that we are a LUCKY country -- GOD looks Out for us

Infact as RECENTLY as in 2007 there was a move to scrap LCA

http://www.oneindia.com/india/we-su...e-tejas-project-2007-subramanyam-1793008.html

 

[Joe Shearer]

Politics in Government departments is another matter

We can say that we are a LUCKY country -- GOD looks Out for us

Infact as RECENTLY as in 2007 there was a move to scrap LCA

http://www.oneindia.com/india/we-su...e-tejas-project-2007-subramanyam-1793008.html

Do you know, I have this strange feeling that the 'correspondent' is the man I succeeded as GM of a defence establishment? And as I was writing this, I got a totally unexpected phone call from the man who was my inside man in the Army and Navy and got us huge inside tracks on vital projects. Wonder what's in the stars?

 

[MilSpec]

How politically ??

India did try to procure engine, but UK denied us, since they consider us in the Soviet Block.

The Soviet Klimov K-7 was tried but couldn’t fit the existing airframe.

India then focus on the Egyptian engine development, even provided one Marut airframe for testing.

Whose fault was there, HAL or the Indian leadership, who took it granted that the German Engineers would design the engine too for India.

Why was the uprated version of the Orpheus 703 engine was not considered, or any effort to increase its thrust.

Let's see, an under performing engine, haven't we faced the same with the LCA. (And Btw Jaguar too is heavily underpowered too, flying merrily in IAF)

Much less known fact is HF24 marut could fly super sonic without afterburners, I heard this from a colleague but dont have any references to post or authenticate it's validity. Now coming to the engines yes the Orpheus 703 was under powered and Adour was almost signed but reneged upon politically. HAL was forced to shutdown this project, and even the engineers were dispersed to other projects.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Let's see, an under performing engine, haven't we faced the same with the LCA. (And Btw Jaguar too is heavily underpowered too, flying merrily in IAF)

Much less known fact is HF24 marut could fly super sonic without afterburners, I heard this from a colleague but dont have any references to post or authenticate it's validity. Now coming to the engines yes the Orpheus 703 was under powered and Adour was almost signed but reneged upon politically. HAL was forced to shutdown this project, and even the engineers were dispersed to other projects.

Even if we had got the engine ; what would we have gained

The Marut was much Inferior to Mig 21

 

[MilSpec]

Even if we had got the engine ; what would we have gained

The Marut was much Inferior to Mig 21

Would you apply the same logic to say a LCA vs (gripen/f16/mig35) ?

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Would you apply the same logic to say a LCA vs (gripen/f16/mig35) ?

No because LCA program was and IS a comprehensive program to Bridge the knowledge GAP

Marut was just an AD HOC arrangement and display of self reliance
without any real increase in capabilities in terms of avionics ; FBW or airframe technology

All these bases were covered in LCA programme

My point is simple that

1 Investment in Marut or an Indigeneous programme could not happen earlier
because of so many reasons

2 And even if we had invested in Marut's engine what would we have done for
Other aspects of Modern military aviation such as avionics ; FBW and Airframe technology

By 1980 F 16s and Mirage 2000 had appeared taking Fighter plane technology to another level

Hence we had to launch an ALL encompassing LCA Programme

The Revision of ASQRs for LCA s -- for which IAF is always criticised
only shows that CATCHING up was the only option we had

Without revision of ASQR s LCA would have been out dated the moment it was born

 

[zebra7]

Let's see, an under performing engine, haven't we faced the same with the LCA. (And Btw Jaguar too is heavily underpowered too, flying merrily in IAF)

Jaguar got lot of upgrades, which makes it bulky, therefore more powerful engine is required now, and F125IN which is can drop-fit into existing Jaguar airframes can suffix that.

Much less known fact is HF24 marut could fly super sonic without afterburners, I heard this from a colleague but dont have any references to post or authenticate it's validity. Now coming to the engines yes the Orpheus 703 was under powered and Adour was almost signed but reneged upon politically. HAL was forced to shutdown this project, and even the engineers were dispersed to other projects.

Even if we had got the engine ; what would we have gained

The Marut was much Inferior to Mig 21

Marut HF-24 was designed as ground attack bomber, not as a dogfighter. The supersonic speed of MIG-21 was in Higher and Medium altitude, and in low level flight, even MIG-21 could not match Marut at such high speed. The Marut HF-24 was designed around Rolls Royce Orpheus BO.12 rated at 6,810 lbf (30.29 kN) dry and 8,170 lbf (36.34 kN) with afterburning and there were two engine, but UK denied us that engine, and we have to settled for uprated engine of GNAT -- Mk.703: Rated at 4,850 lbf (21.57 kN), which HAL was license producing it in India.

When Jaguar came to India, it was flying with faulty Navigation system for 8 years, similarly IAF and HAL worked with the OEM to make the real GNAT, which was designed as trainer to mature and become The SABRE SLAYER. MIG-21 when brought to India, was first offered to Pakistan, but during 1965, it played a limited role, and could not fly at night and was designed as Air Superiority Fighter Plane, and not as an interceptor what IAF is using right now.

As far as Marut HF-24 is concerned, it could have got the upgrades of the 3rd Generation in its MK-2 upgrades, with IRST and Laser range finder in its nose and instead of Jaguar and MIG-27 and MIG-23 BN Marut HF-24 could have inducted in numbers, thus creating the institutional, and supply chain, and R&D infra much earlier.

Yes Marut could fly at Mach 1 without afterburner, and I think Marut was technologically superior of its times and was way ahead of its time.

BTW enjoy the reality of the Engine SAGA in India and close to reality.

Without revision of ASQR s LCA would have been out dated the moment it was born

A little change, without ADA aimed higher, which many criticized, like FBW, Composites, FADEEC, Glass cockpit, the LCA would have been rejected and scraped by the import Lobbyist.