4- Type 054 Frigates from China, Pakistan's next Goal

[Penguin]

You'd be surprised how much revenue can be generated through taxing the landed feudals, affluent agriculturalists, certain swiss-accounts. Pakistan just needs coherent political direction, drive and daring leadership...the economy, infrastructure and military can be modernized and expanded in parallel, as opposed to one after another. The potential is definately there.

Clearly, the point was not that Pakistan can't raise the necessary cash. More that you can only spend it once and thus should spend it wisely. What are your greatest needs, as a country? Ships, or other things?

 

[Hyde]

finally i learned how to report posts

Thanks Paksher for giving this pleasure to me

 

[owais.usmani]

Have to agree with Mr. Zaki over there. I normally do not report posts but this was just too good to be missed.

 

[Quwa]

Clearly, the point was not that Pakistan can't raise the necessary cash. More that you can only spend it once and thus should spend it wisely. What are your greatest needs, as a country? Ships, or other things?

I don't think any of the major powers neglected armaments in favour of education or health...but rather strived to develop their defense-secruity and human-security at the same time. Trust me, military expenditure is NOT the reason for the socio-economic problems in Pakistan: Corruption, monopolization, predatory elites, and lack of sincere and visionary leadership is the reason. If Pakistan can generate even $10bn/year from land/agri-taxes (which is nothing compared to the reality)...it can set aside $3bn for defense-acquisitions, and that would be enough in addition to the $4-5bn annual defense budget. The remaining $7bn can be invested into education, health care, infrastructure, energy etc...and that is a insane jump from what is being spent now. And remember, this $10bn figure is just from the agri/land-tax, not the revenues generated from exporting coal (through nationalized assets), wealth-taxes on the business elites, etc.

 

[Penguin]

I don't think any of the major powers neglected armaments in favour of education or health...but rather strived to develop their defense-secruity and human-security at the same time.

Uhm... soviet union?

Anyway, it doesn't do to make a huge and fantastics shopping list for PN.

 

[Quwa]

Uhm... soviet union?

Anyway, it doesn't do to make a huge and fantastics shopping list for PN.

Well I don't think mass education was a priority for Britain, Germany, France, etc, until quite recently in the 1950s. However, I am not saying that Pakistan should follow their model...very far from it. Pakistan should tax and break those who are monopolizing our resources, markets, real-estate, etc, and it will generate enough income to support military advancement and socio-economic human progression. Of course, it is also necessary that the political leadership is changed where austerity, merit and humility completely replace luxury and nepotism.

As for the $3bn U.S./year figure for acquisitions, that's just the minimum from one aspect of national revenue. If we add them up, then I think $5bn U.S. can be secured - at the minimum. There is no way that Pakistan spends any where close to half of $5bn per year on funding new weapon acquisitions...it's just opening up credit lines and paying in installments.

 

[Penguin]

Well I don't think mass education was a priority for Britain, Germany, France, etc, until quite recently in the 1950s. However, I am not saying that Pakistan should follow their model...very far from it. Pakistan should tax and break those who are monopolizing our resources, markets, real-estate, etc, and it will generate enough income to support military advancement and socio-economic human progression. Of course, it is also necessary that the political leadership is changed where austerity, merit and humility completely replace luxury and nepotism.

As for the $3bn U.S./year figure for acquisitions, that's just the minimum from one aspect of national revenue. If we add them up, then I think $5bn U.S. can be secured - at the minimum. There is no way that Pakistan spends any where close to half of $5bn per year on funding new weapon acquisitions...it's just opening up credit lines and paying in installments.

The starting situation of 1950s Britain was quite different than that of Pakistan, I would think.

As for the US, well, their military spending does cut into other budget items, doesn't it.

 

[bc040400065]

The starting situation of 1950s Britain was quite different than that of Pakistan, I would think.

As for the US, well, their military spending does cut into other budget items, doesn't it.

The problem is that we have the resources, someone believe or not but pakistan can just change in 5 years interms of economy, and development but the only thing required is not american pupets but real pakistani nationalist leadership. not zardari or musharaf. and no corruption and ofcourse more taxation in different fields. pakistan can generate revenue equal to all its debts in a single year and thats not what im saying but Abdullah Yousaf the ex chairman of revenue board said this. One more thing Pakistan can go far ahead from where it is now if american interference is ended. Pakistan should be according to pakistan's national interest and requirements and not that of US. and in the end yes defence procurement is difficult but there is no choice, india does not miss any chance to take advantage of our weakness, so we have to be good at our defence to stop any indian aggression.

 

[Penguin]

The problem is that we have the resources, someone believe or not but pakistan can just change in 5 years interms of economy, and development but the only thing required is not american pupets but real pakistani nationalist leadership. not zardari or musharaf. and no corruption and ofcourse more taxation in different fields. pakistan can generate revenue equal to all its debts in a single year and thats not what im saying but Abdullah Yousaf the ex chairman of revenue board said this. One more thing Pakistan can go far ahead from where it is now if american interference is ended. Pakistan should be according to pakistan's national interest and requirements and not that of US. and in the end yes defence procurement is difficult but there is no choice, india does not miss any chance to take advantage of our weakness, so we have to be good at our defence to stop any indian aggression.

Ok, back to the initial point: anyone can think up an imaginary fleet disposition but how about thinking up one that is reasonably likely to occur within the short-medium term. We can all pipe dream (hey, not to many years ago, the Dutch had 6 SSK, 4 AAW frigates, and 14 GP frigates. Today, they have 4 SKK, 4 destroyers, 2 frigates and 2 LPDs. I'ld love for us to acquire a Cavour-like ship and a class of new frigates or even large corvettes. However, it isn't going to happen, so why bother pipe-dreaming about it: all we're getting is 4 gun armed ocean going OPVs ...)

 

[araz]

I don't think any of the major powers neglected armaments in favour of education or health...but rather strived to develop their defense-secruity and human-security at the same time. Trust me, military expenditure is NOT the reason for the socio-economic problems in Pakistan: Corruption, monopolization, predatory elites, and lack of sincere and visionary leadership is the reason. If Pakistan can generate even $10bn/year from land/agri-taxes (which is nothing compared to the reality)...it can set aside $3bn for defense-acquisitions, and that would be enough in addition to the $4-5bn annual defense budget. The remaining $7bn can be invested into education, health care, infrastructure, energy etc...and that is a insane jump from what is being spent now. And remember, this $10bn figure is just from the agri/land-tax, not the revenues generated from exporting coal (through nationalized assets), wealth-taxes on the business elites, etc.

mark
Do you actually have any reference to support these figures you are quoting. I dont mean to be argumentative but it would be nice to see what the actual expectations of revenues are from these fat cats who have been on the receiving end for the last 6 decades.
Araz

 

[maverick1977]

will pakistan be getting HQ9 with type 054 destroyers?

 

[TaimiKhan]

will pakistan be getting HQ9 with type 054 destroyers?

It has to otherwise no charm would be left in acquiring this ship as its SAM is its beauty. Otherwise the C-802s, 76mm gun turret etc are also available in the F-22P. So O54A has to be acquired with the HQ-9, and that is the weapon system which PN want and why it is looking at this frigate acquisition.

 

[desiman]

If acquired, Type-054A frigates with its HQ-16 (32 cell VLS) medium range SAMs would be a considerable upgrade for PN. It would provide an Area-Air-Defense umbrella for its task force.

HQ-16 VLS:



Admiral Noman Bashir meeting with Chinese Defense Minister Liang Guanglie.

The biggest factor in this deal would be the age of these frigates. On a normal time scale the metal used in ship rusts in around 20 years or so. It takes around $20 for every square inch to redo the metal and restore it to its prime condition. Pakistan will spend a lot of money on just maintaining these ships and the amount of refitting is also quite a lot. I would it is wiser for Pakistan to acquire new ships directly from China as in the longer run that would be cheaper and safer also. At best the life of these frigates even after refit would be a max of 10-15 years. Pakistan can easily get much better ships if they do some pulling around in the market which is quite desperate right now. Again this is my opinion.

Here is an article talking about the rusting on ships as new as 3 months old just for reference sake.

Forsvarets nye fregatt ruster - Hordaland - NRK Nyheter

Norway's new frigates rust after 3 months.. - Boat Design Forums

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The biggest factor in this deal would be the age of these frigates. On a normal time scale the metal used in ship rusts in around 20 years or so. It takes around $20 for every square inch to redo the metal and restore it to its prime condition. Pakistan will spend a lot of money on just maintaining these ships and the amount of refitting is also quite a lot. I would it is wiser for Pakistan to acquire new ships directly from China as in the longer run that would be cheaper and safer also. At best the life of these frigates even after refit would be a max of 10-15 years. Pakistan can easily get much better ships if they do some pulling around in the market which is quite desperate right now. Again this is my opinion.

Here is an article talking about the rusting on ships as new as 3 months old just for reference sake.

Forsvarets nye fregatt ruster - Hordaland - NRK Nyheter

Norway's new frigates rust after 3 months.. - Boat Design Forums

Pakistan Navy takes great care of their assets , and also we have shipping yard to maintain ships on regular basis

 

[maverick1977]

Lets suppose Pakistan does get HQ 9 or HQ 16 with type 054 destroyers, what class of indian destroyers will be at the same part with type 054 destroyers interms of Ship to Air warfare capability?