25th Anniversary of Tiananmen Square

[terranMarine]

now don't play with words.

Don't dare to answer and avoiding the question now?

 

[MM_Haider]

come on this is such a stupid question it is obvious i haven't conducted a survey for God's sake.. but 15 ~ 20 people i had a discussion on politics, majority were inclined towards democracy.. the point is there is a second opinion.

 

[terranMarine]

wow 20 people out of 1.3 billion. That's a lot and it represent whole of the Chinese population in China.

 

[tranquilium]

yeah the politicians here are corrupt and incompetent and daily we have protests against them and articles are published against them in news papers and electronic media criticizes them. Democracy in itself is good but these politicians are making it look worst.

Then why censor the word Pu Zhiqiang?

百度一下，你就知道

He is not censored according to Baidu.

 

[sword1947]

Mate i would have bought whatever you are selling on PDF if I wouldn't have met common people and university graduates and professional in china myself. Every country makes such laws as to stop people conspiring against state but people are not deprived of stating anything against the leader. This is the democratic right which a common person in China wants. They want to criticize the Chairman, the PLA, without conspiring against state or treason. I hope the thin line between treason and freedom of expression is clear to you now.

We don't need such right and such line. They are useless for developing China and impoving our living level, and they are easily causing chaos and used by those CIA's nut head spy in China.

 

[TaiShang]

yes because Chinese i met here don't like this system and they want western democracy!

The Indians I met all are jealous about China and create fake stories and statistics because that's the only way they can personally vent their frustration at their own dysfunctional and corrupt-to-the-core regime.

 

[kalu_miah]

India's democracy is not best... and again if you hate to be preached here on this forum leave it..

yes because Chinese i met here don't like this system and they want western democracy!

I am just curious, how many "fully democratic" countries did you spend significant time in?
Democracy Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MM_Haider]

I am just curious, how many "fully democratic" countries did you spend significant time in?
Democracy Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

hold on a sec! the discussion here is not about which way of governance is better. it is about massacre of some students. How do you defend that?

 

[kalu_miah]

hold on a sec! the discussion here is not about which way of governance is better. it is about massacre of some students. How do you defend that?

You cannot speak of democracy unless you experienced it in real life, have you?

 

[TaiShang]

hahaha... stop this .. stop that... mate it's not gona happen here! if you have problems with your ears.. leave! nobody is forcing you listen.. OK??

I know buzz never stops. But, it is a public good to show the world the true colors of a democracy.

That's an opportunity created right here. Bear with that.

 

[tranquilium]

hold on a sec! the discussion here is not about which way of governance is better. it is about massacre of some students. How do you defend that?

Well, Wikileak already disputed there is actually any "massacre" done, but you know, we do learn a lot from US on how to handle these things:
Bonus Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yeah, these are actually WWI veterans that bled and died for the country.

Everyone have freedom of expression, but since you are living in a human society, you have to interact with someone other than yourself, as a result, we establish rules, regulation and code of conducts. Those rules that are enforceable by a nation's strength of arms become laws. We have a word for attempting to seize control of power through use of violence, especially if it is back by foreign powers with ulterior motives, it is called a coup. Guess what is the universal response to that in every country?

 

[Desertfalcon]

I understand perfectly. It essentially comes down to "if you don't like us, why are you here" and my answer is that I am here for things I can learn, for example, knowledge and expertise in electrical engineering, but I am not here for this particular version of democracy.

Then if you are not an American citizen, please have the good manners to not insult the host that has invited you here as a guest. And please stop trafficking in the stereotype that all Americans are lazy. America does not have one of the top per capita incomes, the most affluent lives, the most powerful and prosperous nations, simply because we have Indian or Chinese immigrants. We have those things because the overwhelming majority of Americans get up every morning and work hard every day. We are one of the most productive people on the planet. We, like many wealthy industrial democracies, have a median age that has doubled in my lifetime and so have an ever increasing population who are collecting their social security, Medicare and other benefits that they PAID INTO. The ageing of America has created a need for more immigrants. That is nothing new and most Americans, being a nation of immigrants, welcome them. Americans frown on ILLEGAL immigration for certain. And they certainly frown on immigrants and guests who come here only to bad mouth the country in ungratefulness and those who stay but refuse to assimilate and become Americans.

The same people you supported. When you don't need them anymore they become your enemies:

Says the man from the country who chief ally committed the most massive genocide ever recorded in human history. Who's own country committed one of the most barbaric genocides in Bangladesh. It's pot, meet kettle time!

And really, it's the most infantile argument to say that just because we may have diplomatic relations with a country that America is then somehow culpable in what that country may do internally. It's why Pakistan has close relations with a China that commits human rights abuses. Just because an American president may shake hands at an international meeting with someone like Gaddafi, that does not mean we endorse or support him. Presidents and prime ministers, foreign envoys and ambassadors, must shake hands with all sorts of reprehensible people all the time. It's the nature of the job. Additionally, you are perpetuating that time old internet myth that the CIA supported the Taliban. Of course before 1991 the American priority was in winning the "Cold War". Just as our priority in WWII was in defeating the Nazis and Japanese militarists before spending the next almost half century defeating the Soviet empire. So yes, we may shake Stalin's hand and given Russia aid when the Nazis attacked her but that did not stop us from working hard for many decades in defeating the empire he built. That is just the way the world works. That the Taliban may have gotten hold of American weapons is certain but ironically we supported the Taliban's mortal enemy. People like Ahmad Shah Massoud and the Northern Alliance. Mr. Massoud of course, OUR man in Afghanistan, was assassinated just before my country was attacked on 9/11/2001.

 

[tranquilium]

Then if you are not an American citizen, please have the good manners to not insult the host that has invited you here as a guest. And please stop trafficking in the stereotype that all Americans are lazy. America does not have one of the top per capita incomes, the most affluent lives, the most powerful and prosperous nations, simply because we have Indian or Chinese immigrants. We have those things because the overwhelming majority of Americans get up every morning and work hard every day. We are one of the most productive people on the planet. We, like many wealthy industrial democracies, have a median age that has doubled in my lifetime and so have an ever increasing population who are collecting their social security, Medicare and other benefits that they PAID INTO. The ageing of America has created a need for more immigrants. That is nothing new and most Americans, being a nation of immigrants, welcome them. Americans frown on ILLEGAL immigration for certain. And they certainly frown on immigrants and guests who come here only to bad mouth the country in ungratefulness and those who stay but refuse to assimilate and become Americans.


Says the man from the country who chief ally committed the most massive genocide ever recorded in human history. Who's own country committed one of the most barbaric genocides in Bangladesh. It's pot, meet kettle time!

And really, it's the most infantile argument to say that just because we may have diplomatic relations with a country that America is then somehow culpable in what that country may do internally. It's why Pakistan has close relations with a China that commits human rights abuses. Just because an American president may shake hands at an international meeting with someone like Gaddafi, that does not mean we endorse or support him. Presidents and prime ministers, foreign envoys and ambassadors, must shake hands with all sorts of reprehensible people all the time. It's the nature of the job. Additionally, you are perpetuating that time old internet myth that the CIA supported the Taliban. Of course before 1991 the American priority was in winning the "Cold War". Just as our priority in WWII was in defeating the Nazis and Japanese militarists before spending the next almost half century defeating the Soviet empire. So yes, we may shake Stalin's hand and given Russia aid when the Nazis attacked her but that did not stop us from working hard for many decades in defeating the empire he built. That is just the way the world works. That the Taliban may have gotten hold of American weapons is certain but ironically we supported the Taliban's mortal enemy. People like Ahmad Shah Massoud and the Northern Alliance. Mr. Massoud of course, OUR man in Afghanistan, was assassinated just before my country was attacked on 9/11/2001.

I have no problem for 60 year olds, or people in the late 50s or people with disability collecting social welfare check. These are the people who are in need and it is up to the society to take care of them. However, I do have problem with people in their 30s or 40s proudly announcing that they can stop working and simply leech off others. This has nothing to do with what citizenship the individual has and everything to do with social welfare being wasted on individual that should be able to take care of themselves but are too lazy to do so.

The intention of my post is to show that I do have ample understanding on what US is like. US is certainly not lazy by the world standard, yet at the same time it is lazier comparing to what it was a few decades ago. In the engineering industry we currently have a habit of hiring 65+ olds back as consultants and after speaking with quite a few of these old engineers the answer essentially comes back the same-----they don't have people that can take over their work.

How is this related to our original topic on what why did the Chinese government did what it did? Well, nowadays a lot of people are associating democracy with entitlement. Entitlement of material income, entitlement of political power and entitlement of being non-productive. Case in the point, Greece joined EU zone and the social welfare swelled up drastically because people are believing they are entitled to it and the elections turns into a game of "who can promise more". The result is that the country went into debt in less than a decade and it is now one of the worst economies in the world.

The problem with so-called "pro-democracy" individuals is that instead of pro-democracy, they are simply pro-direct election even though a popularity vote is clearly bad for the country as a whole, case in the point, Egypt and Muslim brotherhood. Somehow, democracy, which is supposed to be a government where all citizens can participate and the selection process, which suppose to put the most competent individual into the office, gets dumbbed down to a popularity contest and anyone saying no is accused to be undemocratic. Case in the point, do you know what my colleagues say when I ask them which US presidential candidate they are going to support? They go into an argument on which candidate promised more benefit. It was a long discussion and not a single word was spent on which one is actually the more competent administrator.

In 89's case, the protest started as anti-corruption campaign. In fact, it is the government that provide the students with transportation to Beijing in the first place. The late 80s and 90s is a critical juncture of Chinese development, the economy has just taken off, it is time to stabilize and fix any glaring problems and corruption is on the agenda. The Chinese government was well aware of this and this is why the students are allowed to protest for extended period of time, but somehow, the "student leaders" came up with the idea that said anti-corruption campaign = chance to gain political power themselves. Essentially, a group of 20 year old that have yet to get their first real job wants to be put in charge of the entire country and when the ridiculousness is refused, they started to incite a violent attack. Seriously, did they take the Chinese government as idiots?

The thing to understand about Chinese government is that it has always followed a highly pragmatic and utilitarian philosophy. Frankly, they give little care to political alignment and doctrine. The only benchmark pretty much comes down to "does it work?" Why pick a communist planned economy at 1950? Well, because it was the best to concentrate the available resources to quickly construct the basic necessities. Why switch to a hybrid economy in 1979? Well, because it was the most efficient way for the economy to develop. Similar, the Chinese selection process for government official concentrate on "how do I pick the individual with the best administrative ability" instead of "who is most popular". Of course, this is actually totally irrelevant to 89 because no sane nation is going to just hand the country a bunch of 20 year olds who clearly had ulterior motives.

 

[bolo]

I stopped replying to that Pakistani-Indian (Pindian) MM Haider. I've already stated my points and refuted his other points. His counter argument is to switch topic.

 

[Informant]

One has to admit the way China steered it from communism to communist capitalist and semi democracy. Slowly and steadily they have achieved what was said to be impossible. Not sayin there havent been screw ups by the communist party, but they are still accountable and are held accountable.