$2.4bn Kohala hydropower deal finalised

[MastanKhan]

No one can defend GB incident.

But it doesn't warrant toppling of the whole damn gov.

We all know that local police officials got the newly given powers to shoot

And they shot at unruly crowd.

Perhaps we need to bring back the shoot to kill authorization system from previous years.

When a black boy gets killed in Furguson MO, blame goes to the police officer

nobody should say that President of the USA should be toppled by a military coup.

Please use some international standards before advocating a specific solution for a problem.

Sir,

In MO case---the president of the U S did not give the order to shoot----. In the united state---that order is passed at the county level----the city police commissioner alongwith advisors determine the needed force.

Once the officers shoots---he has to target the largest mass---the chest---it is shoot to kill and shoot till your magazine is empty----then reload and asses situation---.

U S police does not shoot at legs hands or arms if the culprits is black brown or latino----it is always shoot to kill. There hardly ever is a case where an officer is convicted of criminal negligence----.

And the judges are not stupid ike Pakistani judges----they don't ask why the culprit was not shot in the arm or leg----pak judges or read too many Imran series or Hamidi Faridi novels or have seen too many indian movies---.

 

[Viper0011.]

The installed generating capacity in Pakistan is well over 21,000 MW.
You blew this one, 100%.

No, you are just doing what you did a few days ago on that flood thread. At the end, you came back with saying "let's use levees" and that was a part of the engineering based solution you entirely denied by saying "it can't be implemented in Pakistan as I've travelled both the US and Pakistan and know the population density". Entirely disregarding how science and engineering works and it can be implemented anywhere no matter how dense the population may be.

You are doing the SAME here. Just arguing without having any basis or background in Hydraulics engineering, Electric Engineering and Infrastructure development and management.

You took an ESTIMATE from the Factbook about Pakistan's energy capability production potential, and you are telling me if the CIA listed it as an "estimate", you think you know its accurate more than the CIA?
I doubt that you have HALF the accuracy compared to the CIA and the resources they use to gather intelligence or the data. The estimate means there is easily 20% or more percent gap. Next, answer something simple for me:

If Pakistan's infrastructure can TODAY produce 21000 MW, which means it can DEFINITELY produce 18000 MW needed.....what's the hold up? Don't you think it would be SO easy to jump start the economy if power outages could be eliminated? The country is on a waiting list till some of the projects finish starting the end of 2015. So if these guys can produce 18000 with the current system, why not do it? I can assure you, if that was the case, they would've taken aid from Saudi to do this and this would not only help jump start the economy, it would also give NS's part soooo many votes that his party would remain in politics as the running party for many elections to come as this is the biggest issue for Pakistan.

The issues of an obsolete power distribution network, and the theft and mismanagement, including timely payment of bills, is the bigger problem compared to adding more efficient generating capacity. Further, given the rates of increase in power demand, loadshedding will remain an intractable problem for the next several decades, at least.

You have NO idea what you are talking about. You are aimlessly shooting everywhere without a target. Energy production like I tried to explain to you ten times, is different than energy distribution management. What doesn't exist, can't be managed properly. You need to generate enough electricity to then manage it.
Let me ask you this, I noticed that you just say "NO, Can't Happen" to everyone's suggestions, even the professionals who provide advise and strategy to your own national institutes. Your background is clearly not in Hydraulics or Electric or Hydro engineering. So tell us, what is your solution? You are trying too hard to sound like an expert, so tell us, how would you do this? Lets see what you have to say versus just keep mixing Apples, Oranges and Bananas together.

 

[VCheng]

If Pakistan's infrastructure can TODAY produce 21000 MW, which means it can DEFINITELY produce 18000 MW needed.....what's the hold up? Don't you think it would be SO easy to jump start the economy if power outages could be eliminated?

The holdup is that the network cannot distribute this power, and the companies that produce this power are not paid for it. The conclusion is that even after adding more generating capacity, these two problems will continue to drag down the economy.

 

[Viper0011.]

The holdup is that the network cannot distribute this power, and the companies that produce this power are not paid for it. The conclusion is that even after adding more generating capacity, these two problems will continue to drag down the economy.

You can maintain this position and I can assure you that the projects under way, are actually complete projects. As soon as they start to come online, you'll see power outages going away. You can come back and read my post next December (2015) and then in October (2016) and every year from that point on. By October - November 2017, the world power outages will have become a part of a dark history. By the end of 2017, you will either have "occasional" power outages like once a week for a few hours or may be an hour or two a day. That's it. By the end of 2018, you'll start to get into surplus production.

Line losses and the distribution are one thing and a separate issue. Payments to IPP's are another one. Like I said, if by paying the IPP's, the country could get rid of the electric outage, the current government to gain political votes, would have done that by collecting friendly aid or long term loan. Anyone would have done that as that's issue number 1 being faced by Pakistan. Whoever can solve it immediately will be in power many terms. But that didn't happen as paying the IPP's doesn't mean that you can actually fill in the gap of 5000-7000 MW that exists. You can continue to decide not to use common sense and debate about stuff you obviously have no clues about. But that doesn't change the reality. This is not the first time I am experiencing your negative attitude of: "can't happen", "engineering doesn't solve any of the Flood related issues", "producing electricity doesn't help", "line losses and salaries are what's causing power outages", the Factbook(CIA), says installed capacity is 21000 MW (when they've put NEXT to it that it is Estimated and was given to them in 2010 so its not current).....not sure why you even debate with anyone when all you want to say is "no, there is no solution to any issues in Pakistan". I don't understand your mentality. But i can tell you, the power outages are about to go away in the next three years or so.

 

[zip]

# you have to provide all the land vaccating people who are within boundary area of the dam
# you are giving guarantee to purchase their product
# their price is not competetive one ..it will burden economy for another thirty years
# after paying say 12 billion dollars extra they will hand over aged dam which may not have 2 billion value due to depreciation ..
I think its good to buy electricity at a competitive price (you gonna save 200 million anually compared to current agreement ) and build the dam with saved money ..
# or take a loan from wb or adb ..your annual installments wont cross 200million..pay back the loan with revenue generated ..
This current proposition only be negative for almost 30 years to your economy ...you will get a depreciated old dam at end ...

 

[xyxmt]

Me too, I have lost confidence in the words of pakistani government and media, the verification from chinese sources is indeed necessary.

In fact we should write Chinese embassy in Islo to confirm these projects or Pakistani people will think they are part of this corruption for being silent

 

[Kabira]

# you have to provide all the land vaccating people who are within boundary area of the dam
# you are giving guarantee to purchase their product
# their price is not competetive one ..it will burden economy for another thirty years
# after paying say 12 billion dollars extra they will hand over aged dam which may not have 2 billion value due to depreciation ..
I think its good to buy electricity at a competitive price (you gonna save 200 million anually compared to current agreement ) and build the dam with saved money ..
# or take a loan from wb or adb ..your annual installments wont cross 200million..pay back the loan with revenue generated ..
This current proposition only be negative for almost 30 years to your economy ...you will get a depreciated old dam at end ...

Do you know how much dam last? And tariff is little higher for initial 12 years, 8.9 cent. But after that its 5.1 for 18 years, overall it average out 6.6cent in 30 years. And i have doubt about how much adb & wb can provide, i was looking at wadpa pdf 2013 file and Pakistan will need around $75 billion till 2025 for various dams.

Pakistan need to divert its resources to Bhasha dam in worst case scenario.

 

[Kabira]

And don't forget guys economic activity this will generate. For exemple Dasu dam will increase Pakistan cement industry growth by 5%.

Dasu dam construction is forecast to boost cement industry growth - Cement industry news from Global Cement

And Casa-1000 project transmission lines from Tajikistan will cost estimated at $1.16 billion and will take 3-4 years to build. On top of that there is always doubt what will happen in Afghanistan.

CASA-1000 project: Pakistan, Tajikistan agree on electricity tariff – The Express Tribune

 

[FaujHistorian]

Sir,

In MO case---the president of the U S did not give the order to shoot----.--.

Nor does NS or SS or Sindh or KP CM

Please read up the police laws that have changed over time.

Model town shooting was local too.

Police wanted to take down barriers on the road
holigans resisted

gun battle ensued.

It was local level stupidity, where police used the existing laws and fired on unruly mob.

just like US/Indian/Chinese/Iranian, Saudi Arabian, Mexican, and even Martian police would shoot an unruly mob.

Thank you.

 

[Viper0011.]

# you have to provide all the land vaccating people who are within boundary area of the dam
# you are giving guarantee to purchase their product
# their price is not competetive one ..it will burden economy for another thirty years
# after paying say 12 billion dollars extra they will hand over aged dam which may not have 2 billion value due to depreciation ..
I think its good to buy electricity at a competitive price (you gonna save 200 million anually compared to current agreement ) and build the dam with saved money ..
# or take a loan from wb or adb ..your annual installments wont cross 200million..pay back the loan with revenue generated ..
This current proposition only be negative for almost 30 years to your economy ...you will get a depreciated old dam at end ...

What is your point that you are trying to make? If I try to read what you are writing, it appears that India shouldn't have built ONE dam as its such a burden on the economy, it does no good and all.....yet, you are building them all over and diverting water from Kashmir to Rajhistan. Contradiction much?? You are on a public forum, if ok to have personal BIAS towards Pakistan as you are from India at the end of the day. But you don't need to derail the thread and start trolling.
You are getting a lot of Chinese investments and loans too. The Metro Rail itself is an expensive deal and no profitability in sight for the short term. Should one start using that comparison here to tell you how bad that deal is when it is in the best interest of the Indian public? Same applies here. So if you can't contribute positively, it may be better to be silent and not write weird stuff driven by personal bias?

 

[shaheenmissile]

You will get electricity at Rs 9 a unit which is costly. However the water storage is an additional benefit. Pakistan will have to pay more if the currency is devaluates. The agreement should have been in Pakistani rupee.

many thermal power plants in Pakistan currently producing electricity at Rs.42 per unit.

 

[Hyde]

Good to know that... I hope the project does materialises...

 

[VCheng]

But i can tell you, the power outages are about to go away in the next three years or so.

Three years for loadshedding to go away? Highly unlikely. In fact, given the rates of increase in demand, damn near impossible. And we can take this up again in three years. Over and out for now in this thread.

 

[Viper0011.]

Three years for loadshedding to go away? Highly unlikely. In fact, given the rates of increase in demand, damn near impossible. And we can take this up again in three years. Over and out for now in this thread.

Like I've said in EVERY single discussion with you, its useless to debate with you as you don't want to see (even pictures), read or listen to the facts as they are against your personal political agenda. However, you can count my words and wait for three years. Come back and respond to this post by December 2017

Here's a recap of our discussions, if you see the content, you'll notice that you are very negative about Pakistan and progression of this nation. And that negativity doesn't help anyone when there is work underway to fix a lot of critical things like the electricity and water storage and all.

First Discussion: One Managing Flood Water in Pakistan, here is what I got out of you:
"the floods can't be managed because the land is flat", "the science and engineering can't fix the flood situation because I've traveled Punjab and the US intimately and I know the differences", " I know what I am talking about, Science and Engineer can't solve the Flood Waters because there is dense population".
Second Discussion: On this topic of electricity and building of many dams that will save water and will generate very CHEAP electricity, here's what I heard from you: " the government is wasting money on dams and expanding electrical production capacity", "the real problem is NOT the electrical production, we have more than enough power generation capacity, up to 22,000 MW", "the real issue behind the power outages is paying Salaries and Distribution of the electricity", "the current infrastructure can support Pakistan's all electric needs", "the Chinese Tariffs are very expensive", "the CIA factbook says that Pakistan can produce 22,000 MW electricity" (totally ignoring the fact that it also said Estimated and reported on 2010, 4 years ago by then gov't of Pakistan which lied on everything, not to mention, estimated is NEVER accurate, otherwise it'll say "exact capacity" or "current capacity", etc)

So like I said, I don't have political anything or any body in Pakistan. I am here supporting Pakistan's growth towards a modern, progressive and economically strong country. So whatever is right and good for common poor individuals in Pakistan, I'll write about it. The rest of the drama, I don't care for.

 

[MastanKhan]

Nor does NS or SS or Sindh or KP CM

Please read up the police laws that have changed over time.

Model town shooting was local too.

Police wanted to take down barriers on the road
holigans resisted

gun battle ensued.

It was local level stupidity, where police used the existing laws and fired on unruly mob.

just like US/Indian/Chinese/Iranian, Saudi Arabian, Mexican, and even Martian police would shoot an unruly mob.

Thank you.

Sir,

You can read up on the law as much as you want to----law being there is meaningless if not practiced----. In pakistan----police does not shoot unruly mob---the order has to come from the top.