2,050MW added to national grid in last 21 months

[BATMAN]

Well I don't want to discuss about whatever you mentioned above..... Kindly prove how the solar energy is feasible for Pakistan

and is the cheapest source of energy among all alternatives?

Look... i have written lengthy posts over this issue in past.
Solar energy is not only the best way forward but is even cheaper than hydel.
I prefer solar, wind and hydel any time over any other conventional means.

Just a quick recap... for solar vs. ABC
1- With solar energy line losses will be zero because their is no need to transmit energy over long distance. take your solar panel to your where you need energy... generally speaking home.
2- All costs related to construction of long distance transmission lines and grid stations will come to zero and Pakistan take international loans to build those and even debt over debt.
3- No need for white elephants like Wapda and therefore no more bail out packages. Private companies will mange and will generate jobs.
4- Solar panels being manufactured in Pakistan will stimulate industry and increase exports to unimaginable level because this is the future of the world.
5- Low cost in development of housing as no more distribution costs of transformers and cabling and thereof installation works.
6- Power in every province, every village and every house.
7- Availability of power will increase mani folds as compare to present circumstance.
8- NO MORE BILLS... Instead you can offer spare energy to govt. and the flow of bills by reversing the flow of energy.
9- Only problem i see is we need more electrical engineers to handle the consequences of such a simple idea.

 

[v9s]

Look... i have written lengthy posts over this issue in past.
Solar energy is not only the best way forward but is even cheaper than hydel.
I prefer solar, wind and hydel any time over any other conventional means.

Just a quick recap... for solar vs. ABC
1- With solar energy line losses will be zero because their is no need to transmit energy over long distance. take your solar panel to your where you need energy... generally speaking home.
2- All costs related to construction of long distance transmission lines and grid stations will come to zero and Pakistan take international loans to build those and even debt over debt.
3- No need for white elephants like Wapda and therefore no more bail out packages. Private companies will mange and will generate jobs.
4- Solar panels being manufactured in Pakistan will stimulate industry and increase exports to unimaginable level because this is the future of the world.
5- Low cost in development of housing as no more distribution costs of transformers and cabling and thereof installation works.
6- Power in every province, every village and every house.
7- Availability of power will increase mani folds as compare to present circumstance.
8- NO MORE BILLS... Instead you can offer spare energy to govt. and the flow of bills by reversing the flow of energy.
9- Only problem i see is we need more electrical engineers to handle the consequences of such a simple idea.

Wow...solar energy: cheap

Solar energy is NOT cheap. Per unit cost of solar power is much more higher than prices of conventional power sources (even in developed countries).

It's also not consistent. In developed countries like the UK and Germany, power companies have to keep their conventional (oil, gas, nuclear) power plants idling all the time (results in increased fuel costs) in case the output from solar/wind power station falls.

It needs a lot of space to create adequate amounts of electricity. Putting a bunch of solar panels on the roof is not enough.

While solar power is a good idea (granted that solar panel efficiency is improving slowly), it'll never be a permanent replacement for current power generation methods, only a complement to them.

 

[Hyde]

Look... i have written lengthy posts over this issue in past.

I have done the same, please do read the disadvantages of solar too

Solar energy is not only the best way forward but is even cheaper than hydel.

Wrong, It is very expensive comparing to Hydel, Nuclear, Wind even Coal

Let me write some ABC disadvantages for you

1) initial cost of the equipment used to harness the suns energy is unaffordable by the poor Pakistani public
2) What will you do during nights? since the solar panel only works under the sunlight? - You know in USA they run their solar panels on expensive gas during nights? so these panels only provide you electricity under the sunlight and not like 24 hours a day
3) They cover a lot of land, a lot more than any typical Nuclear power plant and also provide you very low output usually the solar plants are generating electricity like 1.5mw - 80MW (if several panels installed)..... World's biggest Solar plant is in USA generating 384MW of electricity from its 9 units and have no idea how many panels are installed all together....You can take a lot of the four plants out of 9 units

I prefer solar, wind and hydel any time over any other conventional means.

For no reason,

Wind is far more cheaper, reliable and efficient than comparing to Solar. Wind provide you electricity for 24 hours and has all the benefits you can think about Solar..... only difference is Wind is far cheaper than Solar and provides electricity many times more than Solar

Just a quick recap... for solar vs. ABC
1- With solar energy line losses will be zero because their is no need to transmit energy over long distance. take your solar panel to your where you need energy... generally speaking home.

lol, then how are you going to transmit electricity to peoples house, factories and offices? same transmission lines bro.... no difference

2- All costs related to construction of long distance transmission lines and grid stations will come to zero and Pakistan take international loans to build those and even debt over debt.

Solar itself cover a huge area of land, so you are literally wasting your money if you have better cheaper and more effective alternatives available such as Wind, Hydel and Nuclear

3- No need for white elephants like Wapda and therefore no more bail out packages. Private companies will mange and will generate jobs.

lol, You're dreaming here

4- Solar panels being manufactured in Pakistan will stimulate industry and increase exports to unimaginable level because this is the future of the world.
5- Low cost in development of housing as no more distribution costs of transformers and cabling and thereof installation works.
6- Power in every province, every village and every house.
7- Availability of power will increase mani folds as compare to present circumstance.
8- NO MORE BILLS... Instead you can offer spare energy to govt. and the flow of bills by reversing the flow of energy.

Dreaming again

9- Only problem i see is we need more electrical engineers to handle the consequences of such a simple idea.

Well Solar will become cheaper after 10-15 years or perhaps 20 years time....so we can talk about the problems of solar.....at the moment, even developed countries think 10 times before investing in solar energy... so let them innovate this technology and make it cheaper for us

 

[Cheetah786]

Well I don't want to discuss about whatever you mentioned above..... Kindly prove how the solar energy is feasible for Pakistan

and is the cheapest source of energy among all alternatives?

You are absolutely right Solar is not the right choice for Pakistan cost too much plus we are in a climate where sun hardly ever shines we should concentrate more on fossil fuels as we are swimming in it.

Plus BATMAN how dare you think whats good for Pakistan in the long run you should be banned for thinking whats good for your country in the short and long term benefits solar and other renewable resources provide for Pakistan.

we should be buying more power from politicians personal oil run power plants so cost of electricity is so high manufacturing runs out of Pakistan i am with you Zaki.

Wrong, It is very expensive comparing to Hydel, Nuclear, Wind even Coal

Let me write some ABC disadvantages for you

1) initial cost of the equipment used to harness the suns energy is unaffordable by the poor Pakistani public

2)

please do share us with us all how do u come up with this figure here is what my take on it .

if like the rest of normal world GOP makes it mandatory that at least 60% of parts are manufactured in pakistan to be sold in pakistan the costs will automatically fall plus create 1000s of badly needed jobs in manufacturing servicing and installing.

What will you do during nights? since the solar panel only works under the sunlight? - You know in USA they run their solar panels on expensive gas during nights? so these panels only provide you electricity under the sunlight and not like 24 hours a day

LOL power consumption is high during the day time as compared to night second solar power generated can be stored a Heat accumulator Liquid salt heat storage for bridging passage of clouds and power generation for up to 6 hours after sun has gone down
and it will cost billions less /yr then say fossil fuels as Almighty will not send you the bill every month for sun shine.

3) They cover a lot of land, a lot more than any typical Nuclear power plant and also provide you very low output usually the solar plants are generating electricity like 1.5mw - 80MW (if several panels installed)..... World's biggest Solar plant is in USA generating 384MW of electricity from its 9 units and have no idea how many panels are installed all together....You can take a lot of the four plants out of 9 units

They do cover a lot more land then nuclear plants but here is the best part there is no threat of radiation leak ever plus most parts of sindh are covered by desert with enough supply of sunshine PLus Americans are far behind rest of the world in solar power generation



Location Near Guadix in Andalusia, Granada province (Spain), one of the sunniest regions in
Spain
General information First commercial parabolic trough power plant in Europe
World's largest solar power plant with a total of 510.000 m² collector surface area
Project developer Solar Millennium AG, Erlangen, in cooperation with their affiliated companies
Collector developer Schlaich Bergermann und Partner in cooperation with Flagsol GmbH
Power plant operator
Andasol 1 S.A, owned by the Spanish ACS/Cobra group (largest construction company
and plant constructors in Spain) and the Solar Millennium Gruppe AG in Erlangen
EPC contractor ACS/Cobra – SENER

Commissioning Middle of 2008
Performance 50 MWel
Financial volume 300 million euros
Collector type EuroTrough: six 12 m elements per drive unit
Heat accumulator Liquid salt heat storage for bridging passage of clouds and power generation for up to 6 hours after sun has gone down
Turbine Siemens 50 megawatt steam turbo set, type SST-700RH
Annual power generation approx. 179 gigawatt hors; covers energy needs of approx. 50,000 homes or 200,000 people

CO2 savings approx. 86 000 t per year per plant

 

[Hyde]

lol first you agreed with me and then disagreed? hehe
lol let me make a reply to you then

 

[Cheetah786]

lol first you agreed with me and then disagreed? hehe
lol let me make a reply to you then

How do i agree with you please do explain.

 

[v9s]

Wind is far more cheaper, reliable and efficient than comparing to Solar. Wind provide you electricity for 24 hours and has all the benefits you can think about Solar..... only difference is Wind is far cheaper than Solar and provides electricity many times more than Solar

Zaki, you've written some good points there, but i'll have to disagree with you on wind power.

In October 2007, based on our data, there were 19 days when average wind turbine output in the UK would have been at 8 per cent of capacity or below and certain days when output would have been close to zero; the overall average output for October was 8 per cent.

In Germany, of the 16,368 of theoretically maximum GWh that could have been produced in October (calculated by taking the 22GW of installed German wind turbine capacity x 31 days x 24 hours ), only 1,318 GWh were actually produced, an overall average output of 7 per cent; output in Germany was also, like the UK, at 8 per cent or below on 19 days.

When the wind stops - the other side of the wind turbine argument - Telegraph

Wind power is NOT reliable or efficient and it's low cost is debatable, but yeah it's better than solar.

 

[Hyde]

please do share us with us all how do u come up with this figure here is what my take on it .

if like the rest of normal world GOP makes it mandatory that at least 60% of parts are manufactured in pakistan to be sold in pakistan the costs will automatically fall plus create 1000s of badly needed jobs in manufacturing servicing and installing.

Well doesn't matter, the initial costs of solar panels are too high.... I give you one "desi example" if you want

1) a Typical solar panel of 1 kilowatt costs around $4650 dollars + Taxes with 10 years warranty in Pakistan according to this website

Select most suitable Solar Power Plan for you!

So thats above $5000 dollars to be precise or - you can say around 425,000 rupees

Now you can get same amount of electricity from UPS for only 10,000 rupees right?

So why will you invest 42 times more money (initial costs) if you can get the same electricity by investing 10k of Pakistani rupee only?

That also applies for bigger plants

LOL power consumption is high during the day time as compared to night second solar power generated can be stored a Heat accumulator Liquid salt heat storage for bridging passage of clouds and power generation for up to 6 hours after sun has gone down
and it will cost billions less /yr then say fossil fuels as Almighty will not send you the bill every month for sun shine.

Doesn't matter, you need a permanent solution of electricity not like you expect solar plants to run during days and shut these plants during nights..... The batteries that you are mentioning are also way too expensive and that will continually cost you big money (as the batteries needs to be replaced very often) so don't think like solar energy is free.....

They do cover a lot more land then nuclear plants but here is the best part there is no threat of radiation leak ever plus most parts of sindh are covered by desert with enough supply of sunshine PLus Americans are far behind rest of the world in solar power generation

Indeed no threat to radiation, but how many times this radiation has effected nature in past?

and if you want to be extra-careful, go for wind at least as they are far cheaper, green, efficient and last but not least provide you electricity all day night and generate a lot more than a typical solar project

Location Near Guadix in Andalusia, Granada province (Spain), one of the sunniest regions in
Spain
General information First commercial parabolic trough power plant in Europe
World's largest solar power plant with a total of 510.000 m² collector surface area
Project developer Solar Millennium AG, Erlangen, in cooperation with their affiliated companies
Collector developer Schlaich Bergermann und Partner in cooperation with Flagsol GmbH
Power plant operator
Andasol 1 S.A, owned by the Spanish ACS/Cobra group (largest construction company
and plant constructors in Spain) and the Solar Millennium Gruppe AG in Erlangen
EPC contractor ACS/Cobra – SENER
Commissioning Middle of 2008
Performance 50 MWel
Financial volume 300 million euros
Collector type EuroTrough: six 12 m elements per drive unit
Heat accumulator Liquid salt heat storage for bridging passage of clouds and power generation for up to 6 hours after sun has gone down
Turbine Siemens 50 megawatt steam turbo set, type SST-700RH
Annual power generation approx. 179 gigawatt hors; covers energy needs of approx. 50,000 homes or 200,000 people

CO2 savings approx. 86 000 t per year per plant

See that also proves my point only
I would call him an Idiot if he spends 300 million euros for mere 50mw and waste 510.000 m² collector surface area

by this logic, we will need to evacuate the whole city if you are to fulfil energy requirements....

By the way, with this 300 million euros you could generate at least 200MW of electricity on wind panels only

And like i said before, I am in favour of a combination of Hydro, Nuclear, Coal and Wind...Solar is not an option for any under-developed country

 

[Hyde]

Zaki, you've written some good points there, but i'll have to disagree with you on wind power.




Wind power is NOT reliable or efficient and it's low cost is debatable, but yeah it's better than solar.

I am not in favour of Wind power either

It cannot be prioritized as the first option for us....... I was only giving a reply to pro-solar energy fans, that the wind energy outclasses solar in all departments

Wind I only say is, because the foreign investors are afraid to invest in coal based power plants and are very keen to invest in wind farms instead.....

This is what I said before in the same thread

I think it should be (in priority)

1) Hydro
2) Coal
3) Nuclear
4) Wind

so on

Solar should be the last option

@ the energy loss

oh yes, when the plants are build, they usually they tell about the maximum output...and the net output is always below the maximum output

Similar thing happens in Solar plants too... so don't worry about that news hehehe

 

[naumananjum]

Look... i have written lengthy posts over this issue in past.
Solar energy is not only the best way forward but is even cheaper than hydel.
I prefer solar, wind and hydel any time over any other conventional means.

Just a quick recap... for solar vs. ABC
1- With solar energy line losses will be zero because their is no need to transmit energy over long distance. take your solar panel to your where you need energy... generally speaking home.
2- All costs related to construction of long distance transmission lines and grid stations will come to zero and Pakistan take international loans to build those and even debt over debt.
3- No need for white elephants like Wapda and therefore no more bail out packages. Private companies will mange and will generate jobs.
4- Solar panels being manufactured in Pakistan will stimulate industry and increase exports to unimaginable level because this is the future of the world.
5- Low cost in development of housing as no more distribution costs of transformers and cabling and thereof installation works.
6- Power in every province, every village and every house.
7- Availability of power will increase mani folds as compare to present circumstance.
8- NO MORE BILLS... Instead you can offer spare energy to govt. and the flow of bills by reversing the flow of energy.
9- Only problem i see is we need more electrical engineers to handle the consequences of such a simple idea.

Solar energy seems to be very cheap but its actually not
the initial cost is so huge that solar cell cant give that money back in even 25 years
secondly energy storage device is required and the only option for this is conventional battery
and battery is very very unreliable for this
they dont have long life
.
and third think u need inverter to convert output of battery in useable form
and heavy powers inverter may become very costly
.
it is suitable for small lights and fans
but not suitable for some heavy power appliances like
1. refrigerator
water pump
AC
etc etc

 

[naumananjum]

The most suitable energy source for Pak is COAL
and Nuclear power plants
recently chashma NPP have complete its decade with 98 percent effeciency
.
Hydel is also good but capital cost is too high
.
projects like Bhasha Dam , Chashma NPP 3 and 4 are under planning and construction
According to Dr Samar Mubarak
PAEC and NESCOM will start working on coal and will produce 5000MW

 

[BATMAN]

I have done the same, please do read the disadvantages of solar too
Wrong, It is very expensive comparing to Hydel, Nuclear, Wind even Coal
Let me write some ABC disadvantages for you

No you are wrong... for example; how can you compare the running cost of a oil fired generation system over a period of 5 years vs. solar system.

1) initial cost of the equipment used to harness the suns energy is unaffordable by the poor Pakistani public[/QUOTE]
what is expensive for you? Do you know the components involved?
If govt. wish the total cost of a powerhouse for single home (1500w) cannot be more 2500$.

2) What will you do during nights? since the solar panel only works under the sunlight? - You know in USA they run their solar panels on expensive gas during nights? so these panels only provide you electricity under the sunlight and not like 24 hours a day

You prefer to pay bail out package for wapda!
Any how FYI energy can be stored in various forms.
Gas, heat, charge, potential are some forms to name.
Solutions are available only willingness from govt. is required.

3) They cover a lot of land, a lot more than any typical Nuclear power plant and also provide you very low output usually the solar plants are generating electricity like 1.5mw - 80MW (if several panels installed)..... World's biggest Solar plant is in USA generating 384MW of electricity from its 9 units and have no idea how many panels are installed all together....You can take a lot of the four plants out of 9 units

the roof of each house is enough to run that house until you are planning to sell it back to state.

Wind is far more cheaper, reliable and efficient than comparing to Solar. Wind provide you electricity for 24 hours and has all the benefits you can think about Solar..... only difference is Wind is far cheaper than Solar and provides electricity many times more than Solar

Cheaper in what sense? well ... recently we had some innovative designs of wind turbines came up increasing its efficiency so i cannot comment on latest status.
But we can only takeup such projects in coastl areas and i favor it.

lol, then how are you going to transmit electricity to peoples house, factories and offices? same transmission lines bro.... no difference

Sun is available at the roof of every house... why shouldn't i take advantage of natures transmission of energy?

Solar itself cover a huge area of land, so you are literally wasting your money if you have better cheaper and more effective alternatives available such as Wind, Hydel and Nuclear

lol, You're dreaming here

Dreaming again

Answers can be found in my comments above... and i hope you understood my professional comments.

Well Solar will become cheaper after 10-15 years or perhaps 20 years time....so we can talk about the problems of solar.....at the moment, even developed countries think 10 times before investing in solar energy... so let them innovate this technology and make it cheaper for us

Solar will becaome cheap in 2 years if govt. of Pakistan take interest but for vested reasons govt. of Zardari will never allow any investor in this field and will never announce incentives on solar products.
The new world order says all industry will be in India and this is all about it.

I hope you know how to make a solar panel.

 

[Hyde]

Either you talk about stand-alone solar panels that are usually installed in your houses or talk about state owned Solar projects that requires transmission lines to provide electricity at homes

By your post, I can sense you are merely talking about the independent solar panels that are usually installed on top of the roof to provide electricity to one single home

No you are wrong... for example; how can you compare the running cost of a oil fired generation system over a period of 5 years vs. solar system.

Like I said before, the total output from the solar panels is too less... thats what my problem is

most solar panels provide electricity like couple of watts if you install on roof for a single house........ but in Pakistan you need electricity in kilowatts to run your house....

Now a typical Pakistani home requires electricity between 3kw - 6kw and that would mean 12,000 - 25,000USD of initial investment (depending upon your requirement). (just a random guess but i know its very close)

Lets take an example of my home in Pakistan, we have a gas-powered generator of 6.5kw installed in my home.... now when the electricity goes, it is enough to provide electricity to my x storey's building but even then sometimes we have to compromise if we are using washing machine, televisions, and other electric equipments at the same time.

Now a typical 6.5kw of solar-panel would have cost us about 30,000USD + taxes.... but instead of investing that much we relied on buying a gas-powered generator for only 50,000 rupees I think. Now think yourself...... why will I invest 30,000USD + when I can have similar result on gas-powered generator by investing only 50,000 rupees?

If you say Solar is a one-time cost, first of all thats wrong as the batteries needs replacements and you have technical problems and you got to repair these panels whenever required.... But if you neglect everything just focus on one question

How long is it going to take if I pay gas-bills of $30,000+ USD to my company for using gas-powered generator? that would probably be years

And then comes the disadvantages as the most houses do not receive enough sunlight in Pakistan that requires to generate electricity....and what about nights? there is a lot of headache involved in solar panels these days

The initial capital needs to come down before we can focus on this technology....Now if you say that government will try to reduce the prices of these panels - I believe you..... but are they going to reduce that 30,000USD + taxes to only 10,000 USD? how??? because this technology is very expensive even in China

what is expensive for you? Do you know the components involved?
If govt. wish the total cost of a powerhouse for single home (1500w) cannot be more 2500$.

You prefer to pay bail out package for wapda!
Any how FYI energy can be stored in various forms.
Gas, heat, charge, potential are some forms to name.
Solutions are available only willingness from govt. is required.

Thats wrong naa,
Average house in Pakistan that uses 1500w only..... cannot afford to buy solar-panels in first place.... and those houses who can afford to buy 1500w usually use more elecctricity and 1500W is not enough for them..... thanks to this "ameeri-ghareebi" gap in our country

@Alternative ways to store
yaar that will also cost money then why we go for solar panels in first place? why not stick with old technology of gas otherwise?

the roof of each house is enough to run that house until you are planning to sell it back to state.

Not enough yaar,
In UK a typical house may use less than 1kw of electricity in his home because they have very small houses, they have only 1 tv and couple of lights...thats all

But in Pakistan, those houses who use less than 1kw of electricity are usually very poor so forget about them installing any such panels... and above 1kw will prefer to install UPS for only 10k of rupees instead of 5 lakh - 1 million rupees

Cheaper in what sense? well ... recently we had some innovative designs of wind turbines came up increasing its efficiency so i cannot comment on latest status.
But we can only takeup such projects in coastl areas and i favor it.

Yes, both solar and wind are progressing day by day...so sooner or later this technology will become more cheaper and we will be able to afford one day

Sun is available at the roof of every house... why shouldn't i take advantage of natures transmission of energy?

not every house yaar, if the house is covered with the shed of tree, solar energy not available, if there is no sunlight, if the weather is cold, if its raining, if anything goes wrong

No electricity in the whole building

Solar will becaome cheap in 2 years if govt. of Pakistan take interest but for vested reasons govt. of Zardari will never allow any investor in this field and will never announce incentives on solar products.
The new world order says all industry will be in India and this is all about it.

I hope you know how to make a solar panel.

Not 2 years.....may be 15 - 20 years

 

[SBD-3]

ENGRO power plant, in Daharki.

---------- Post added at 04:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:31 AM ----------



Useless claim..


Only way forward is Nuclear power.

Cheap, safe, clean.

Whoso ever thinks that all this was initiated by mush is somewhat incorrect as during his 8 years The generation capacity remained at 20000MW. Even the energy experts consider this as a major policy blunder by Mush as with growth, the energy needs extend, but Mush didnt even think about it. So we are facing the crisis as the energy capacity should ideally progress continuously at about 125% of Production growth which did not happen.

 

[BATMAN]

Zaki... what is not cheap in solar power system?
Solar panel or controller?
I don't know what else is required! perhaps few batteries for the night!

As per my guess solar panel producing 100 watt shall not cost more than 100$
Until you plan to buy high output panels...
Cost of a 1500kw controller from china shall not exceed more than 1500$

Now if we start building both items locally than it may cost if not less than same, provided govt. do not discourage such bussiness by imposing huge taxes.

If such project initiated than govt. will be saving lot of capital which is usually spent on infrastructure development of power houses and their transmission. not to mention the stolen electricity by the political activists.

Wind power will be more acceptable by the corrupt regime and political activist as energy from it will be pumped into the national grid hence will not hurt the electricity thieves which is nothing more than the politicians and their siblings.