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1965 war - Meet the Muslim grenadier who killed a pakistani Brigadier

Graveyard of pattons - born in detroit buried in asal uttar

Battle of Asal Uttar.jpg


Prime Minister Narendra Modi poses with jeep of with Param Vir Chakra awardee Shaheed Abdul Hameed in an exhibition on Golden Jubilee of the 1965 Indo-Pak War, in New Delhi.
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thanks love the pic
 
Yeah, Muslims should not kill Muslims, in Balochistan, in NWFP, in East-Pakistan/Bangladesh and so many other places. Oh, I guess the killers in all these places must have been RAW agents, surely. Yeah, Indian Muslims will side with Pakistani army to kill the Baloch? What do you smoke my friend - must be some really nasty weed. Dream on.
I just stated his words. It doesn't mean muslims are following it.
 
A lecture of Colonel Abdul Rasool Khan vsm, Khan remarked that they were part of a battalion of Indian army called 4 Grenadiers composed of 25% Muslims, 50% Jats and 25% Dogra personnel.

He specifically mentioned the names of Havaldar Safeeq and Havaldar Naushad on the battle ground, the later one killed the leader of the Pakistani battalion, Brigadier AR Shameem, who was around while misreading the situation once the RCL gun became silent. This completely overwhelmed the attacking troops which retreated back thereafter.

Col . Abdul Rasool Khan said that the 4 Grenadiers’ resistance was vital for the war in the Khem Karan sector at a place called Chima, where both the parties were playing hide and seek midst standing crops after 3 Indian battalions were already scattered by the Pakistani onslaught and had the last of the battalions of the Indian Division deployed

In his presidential remarks, Abdul Rashid Agwan recalled the great contribution of Nizam Hyderabad Osman Ali Khan during the 1965 war in the form of his donation of 5000 kg of gold to the National Defence Fund (NDF), which would worth by the present count to be whooping Rs 1500-1600 crore.
 
Well my cousin, an Indian loyalist did say muslims should not join army as it would be a situation where muslims are killing muslims. It is partly this other than the usual bias that ensures only a small number of muslims join the Indian army. But I do suspect such stories might be made up as well. To prove that muslims are patriotic, doing well-something indians like to tell themselves but it also ensures they are not prepared when we muslims rebel or side with Pakistan en masse. At least the Pakistan loving ones.


I am sorry but this the second time today that I have to question your wisdom which raises another question , this relates to methods of selection of Think Tanks .

To begin with , having lived , commanded & served with Muslim troops I can vouch 1000% on their ability & loyalty. Those in the IA dont give a flying foxtrot about Pakistan as one would expect Sikhs & Hindus in PA to do for India.

Whats this silly notion of ' a situation where Muslim kill Muslims ? !!!

I do not recall any Hindus, Sikhs , Jews etc in the 9 Year war between Iran & Iraq , Jordanian Jets bombing Syria, KSA on Yemen ( even Pak troops were sought).

As far as I recall all these instances were of Muslims Fighting Muslims. How about E Pakistan ? Were hindus massacring Muslim Bengalis ?? How about the suicide bombers in Pakistan ? ...they Christians or Buddhists ? I do not wish to give an example of the poor school children of Peshawar - its too heart breaking even to recall.

IA has Muslims who have been Corps Commanders in places as sensitive as Srinagar & even Army Commanders , Air Chiefs - that's the kind of blind faith we have in our Muslims , and for bloody good reason too.

You need to revisit your Lucknow connections & quotations .

The world does not revolve around Islam or Pakistan

Apologies in advance if I have ruffled any feathers.

@Icarus @vsdoc @fatman17 @nair @Bang Galore
 
Islam like the others is just another religion on this planet

Pakistan like India too is just another nation on this planet.

Some people here seem to have a larger than life image of themselves.
Let me be the Devil's Advocate. I would say -

'With all due respect...

Islam is the one True faith, and not just a religion. It is a complete way of life as revealed to Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him... I respect your religion as we say 'There is no compulsion in religion'. But idolatry is shirk.'

They would add some more good or bad words depending on their fanaticism index. But that's about it. And guess what? They have every RIGHT to think so. Unless they don't spread their views elsewhere.
 
At the cost of appearing riled up I would like to illustrate what soldiers are.

This picture below is if 1965 War vintage. It shows Lt Col Anant Singh of 4 Sikh who along with some of his men was captured & made POW. 4 Sikh covered itself in glory one day and the next day at Machike it walked into distress - such are the vagaries of war.

With him is Subedar Gulam Mohammad of 15 Punjab Pak Army. This picture is of a Pak POW camp after the cease fire.

These two had served together in WW 2 and met for the 1st time post partition. A few days ago they would have gladly killed each other. Now that the guns fell silent they met as former colleagues & as soldiers.

This is what the profession of arms is all about , not about parochial things like religion or race.

I wish you people would realise this.

@Icarus @fatman17 @Imran Khan @haviZsultan @vsdoc

11998944_10153171029668214_7955080878995292394_n.jpg
 
At the cost of appearing riled up I would like to illustrate what soldiers are.

This picture below is if 1965 War vintage. It shows Lt Col Anant Singh of 4 Sikh who along with some of his men was captured & made POW. 4 Sikh covered itself in glory one day and the next day at Machike it walked into distress - such are the vagaries of war.

With him is Subedar Gulam Mohammad of 15 Punjab Pak Army. This picture is of a Pak POW camp after the cease fire.

These two had served together in WW 2 and met for the 1st time post partition. A few days ago they would have gladly killed each other. Now that the guns fell silent they met as former colleagues & as soldiers.

This is what the profession of arms is all about , not about parochial things like religion or race.

I wish you people would realise this.

@Icarus @fatman17 @Imran Khan @haviZsultan @vsdoc

View attachment 257846
now thats good story i like it
 
These two had served together in WW 2 and met for the 1st time post partition. A few days ago they would have gladly killed each other. Now that the guns fell silent they met as former colleagues & as soldiers.

But the romance of those shared BIA brotherhood days is long gone now sir.

Probably the only place where our forces might have served together would be UN peacekeeping missions.

Though yes, we do make it a point to know most of what can be known about the officer corps we are facing up against.
 
There are hardly any Muslims in Indian Army. Even by your own admission, muslims in India are over 14.5% yet Indian Army hires less than 1% of Muslims in the Indian Army because you don't Trust Muslims. Since partition , only 8 Muslim generals reached the rank of Major General ( 2 Star General ). You should not brag about Muslims In Indian Army because the way Indian Army treats Muslims is nothing short of shameful and disgraceful.

Read this and weep :





Muslims in Indian army
— PUBLISHED MAR 15, 201012:00AM
WE must not doubt the ability of the 1.2 million-strong Indian army to fight wars on two fronts, because one of its top commanders has told us so. Nor should we doubt that India has more Muslims than all of Pakistan, since the statement is routinely broadcast from New Delhi.

And no one should doubt India's secular democracy, since that has been its credo since independence. But we are unable to conclude that Muslims are well represented in the Indian army, because the official silence on this important issue is deafening. Omar Khalidi, an independent scholar at MIT who hails from India, probes this mystery deftly and lucidly.

In his new book, Khaki and Ethnic Violence in India, Khalidi points out that not only is the number of Muslims wearing Indian army fatigues not proportional to the share of Muslims in the Indian population, it is politically indeterminate and potentially minuscule.

Khalidi meticulously narrates the history of attempts to force the defence ministry to provide the number of Muslims in uniform to parliament. He says they have all been met with derision. At one point, a former defence minister, George Fernandes, said it was “anti-national” to count Muslims in the armed forces. Fernandes charged that anyone asking for such information was not only an enemy of India but a person who had failed to grasp the complexity of India's security concerns.

To make sure that no one would ever again raise that issue, he said the very act of asking the question would be an act of sedition. Another former defence minister, Pranab Mukherjee, stated in 2006 that military recruitment was based on merit and there was no discrimination in the services based on caste or religion. He added that no survey had been conducted to determine the religious identity of the soldiers nor would one be done in the future.

One wonders why questions about religion are asked in the census. Are they not an act of sedition?

When asked about the role of Muslims in the Indian army, two former army chiefs, Field Marshal Manekshaw and Gen Sundarji, reiterated the same 'party line'. Recruitment is based on merit and there is no discrimination in the ranks. In an interview with Khalidi, Manekshaw seemed to concede that Muslims were not proportionately represented in the army but said that was because they lagged in educational attainment, not because they were not sought out in recruitment.

No official statistics are available on the number of Muslims in the Indian army. However, Khalidi says that former Defence Minister Mulayam Singh Yadav stated in the late 1990s that only one per cent of the Indian soldiers were Muslims. Maybe that is an underestimate. But even if we quintuple it, it is still a far cry from the number that existed once.

As twilight descended on the British Raj, the number of Muslims in the Indian Army was about 30 per cent. Just six years later, it had come down to two per cent, according to the minister of state for defence of the time. Prime Minister Nehru was very concerned and sought to boost the recruitment of Muslims.

To put things in perspective, according to the 1941 census, 23 per cent of Indians were Muslims. After partition in 1947, two-thirds of the Muslims resided in Pakistan but a third resided in India. The 1951 Indian census showed that there were 8.3 million Christians, 35 million Muslims and 304 million Hindus, making the share of Muslims about 10 per cent. By the time of the 2001 census, that share had risen to 13.4 per cent.

The presence of Muslims in the Indian army went in the opposite direction, from roughly two per cent in 1953 to roughly one per cent in the late 1990s. The first Indian army chief, Gen K.K. Cariappa, did not believe that Muslims would ever be loyal to India. Admittedly, most of the Muslims in the Indian army had opted for Pakistan. But over time that number should have risen. The decision of Maj-Gen Anis Ahmad Khan to migrate to Pakistan in the mid-1950s was entirely apolitical. But it was used by the hardliners in India to question the loyalty of all Muslims in uniform.

Contrary evidence was provided during the war of 1965 when Indian Muslims in the army received some of the highest military awards for gallantry. However, no Muslim in the Indian army ever made it past the rank of major-general and only eight ever made it that far. During the British Raj, Muslims and Sikhs were over-represented in the army compared to their shares in the population due to the martial races theory. That theory was shelved after Indian soldiers mutinied in 1857.

Since Muslim soldiers were in the vanguard of the revolt, the British had begun to distrust Muslims. However, the demands of the time during the First and Second World Wars once again opened the gates to recruiting them. Since soldiery had long been the dominant occupation of people living in the northwestern regions of India and since most of them were Muslims, the share of Muslims rose once again in the British Indian army.

However, the fear of the Muslims never fully receded from the colonial psyche. No Muslim regiment was allowed to come into being even though there were plenty of other ethnic regiments. That tradition of not having Muslim regiments continues today in the Indian army. Perhaps the tradition of distrust has outlived the British. In contrast to the slim share of Muslims in the Indian army, there are the Sikhs who account for about two per cent of the population. At partition, their share in the army was eight per cent. By the 1980s, it had risen to 13 per cent. Many rose to three-star rank and one became the army chief. Sikhs account for as much as 20 per cent of the officers.

And then there are the two microscopic minorities which account for less than a tenth of a million people in the population but which have produced as many two-star generals as the 180 million Muslims. It is hard to prove that the presence of the Muslims in the Indian army is low because of anti-Muslim sentiment in the Indian military establishment. But the evidence marshalled by Khalidi is very disturbing. The reluctance of the Indian authorities to investigate the issue only validates his concerns.
 
There are hardly any Muslims in Indian Army. Even by your own admission, muslims in India are over 14.5% yet Indian Army hires less than 1% of Muslims in the Indian Army because you don't Trust Muslims. Since partition , only 8 Muslim generals reached the rank of Major General ( 2 Star General ). You should not brag about Muslims In Indian Army because the way Indian Army treats Muslims is nothing short of shameful and disgraceful.

Read this and weep :





Muslims in Indian army
— PUBLISHED MAR 15, 201012:00AM
WE must not doubt the ability of the 1.2 million-strong Indian army to fight wars on two fronts, because one of its top commanders has told us so. Nor should we doubt that India has more Muslims than all of Pakistan, since the statement is routinely broadcast from New Delhi.

And no one should doubt India's secular democracy, since that has been its credo since independence. But we are unable to conclude that Muslims are well represented in the Indian army, because the official silence on this important issue is deafening. Omar Khalidi, an independent scholar at MIT who hails from India, probes this mystery deftly and lucidly.

In his new book, Khaki and Ethnic Violence in India, Khalidi points out that not only is the number of Muslims wearing Indian army fatigues not proportional to the share of Muslims in the Indian population, it is politically indeterminate and potentially minuscule.

Khalidi meticulously narrates the history of attempts to force the defence ministry to provide the number of Muslims in uniform to parliament. He says they have all been met with derision. At one point, a former defence minister, George Fernandes, said it was “anti-national” to count Muslims in the armed forces. Fernandes charged that anyone asking for such information was not only an enemy of India but a person who had failed to grasp the complexity of India's security concerns.

To make sure that no one would ever again raise that issue, he said the very act of asking the question would be an act of sedition. Another former defence minister, Pranab Mukherjee, stated in 2006 that military recruitment was based on merit and there was no discrimination in the services based on caste or religion. He added that no survey had been conducted to determine the religious identity of the soldiers nor would one be done in the future.

One wonders why questions about religion are asked in the census. Are they not an act of sedition?

When asked about the role of Muslims in the Indian army, two former army chiefs, Field Marshal Manekshaw and Gen Sundarji, reiterated the same 'party line'. Recruitment is based on merit and there is no discrimination in the ranks. In an interview with Khalidi, Manekshaw seemed to concede that Muslims were not proportionately represented in the army but said that was because they lagged in educational attainment, not because they were not sought out in recruitment.

No official statistics are available on the number of Muslims in the Indian army. However, Khalidi says that former Defence Minister Mulayam Singh Yadav stated in the late 1990s that only one per cent of the Indian soldiers were Muslims. Maybe that is an underestimate. But even if we quintuple it, it is still a far cry from the number that existed once.

As twilight descended on the British Raj, the number of Muslims in the Indian Army was about 30 per cent. Just six years later, it had come down to two per cent, according to the minister of state for defence of the time. Prime Minister Nehru was very concerned and sought to boost the recruitment of Muslims.

To put things in perspective, according to the 1941 census, 23 per cent of Indians were Muslims. After partition in 1947, two-thirds of the Muslims resided in Pakistan but a third resided in India. The 1951 Indian census showed that there were 8.3 million Christians, 35 million Muslims and 304 million Hindus, making the share of Muslims about 10 per cent. By the time of the 2001 census, that share had risen to 13.4 per cent.

The presence of Muslims in the Indian army went in the opposite direction, from roughly two per cent in 1953 to roughly one per cent in the late 1990s. The first Indian army chief, Gen K.K. Cariappa, did not believe that Muslims would ever be loyal to India. Admittedly, most of the Muslims in the Indian army had opted for Pakistan. But over time that number should have risen. The decision of Maj-Gen Anis Ahmad Khan to migrate to Pakistan in the mid-1950s was entirely apolitical. But it was used by the hardliners in India to question the loyalty of all Muslims in uniform.

Contrary evidence was provided during the war of 1965 when Indian Muslims in the army received some of the highest military awards for gallantry. However, no Muslim in the Indian army ever made it past the rank of major-general and only eight ever made it that far. During the British Raj, Muslims and Sikhs were over-represented in the army compared to their shares in the population due to the martial races theory. That theory was shelved after Indian soldiers mutinied in 1857.

Since Muslim soldiers were in the vanguard of the revolt, the British had begun to distrust Muslims. However, the demands of the time during the First and Second World Wars once again opened the gates to recruiting them. Since soldiery had long been the dominant occupation of people living in the northwestern regions of India and since most of them were Muslims, the share of Muslims rose once again in the British Indian army.

However, the fear of the Muslims never fully receded from the colonial psyche. No Muslim regiment was allowed to come into being even though there were plenty of other ethnic regiments. That tradition of not having Muslim regiments continues today in the Indian army. Perhaps the tradition of distrust has outlived the British. In contrast to the slim share of Muslims in the Indian army, there are the Sikhs who account for about two per cent of the population. At partition, their share in the army was eight per cent. By the 1980s, it had risen to 13 per cent. Many rose to three-star rank and one became the army chief. Sikhs account for as much as 20 per cent of the officers.

And then there are the two microscopic minorities which account for less than a tenth of a million people in the population but which have produced as many two-star generals as the 150 million Muslims. It is hard to prove that the presence of the Muslims in the Indian army is low because of anti-Muslim sentiment in the Indian military establishment. But the evidence marshalled by Khalidi is very disturbing. The reluctance of the Indian authorities to investigate the issue only validates his concerns.
Because we still recruit soldiers from martial race basis only regiment of the guards took soldiers from under represented communities and all india basis.There are few hindus from orisa,jharkhand and other such states.Muslims are recruited along with hindus from UP,Rajasthan,Haryana and kashmir in jak li.
 
But the romance of those shared BIA brotherhood days is long gone now sir.

Probably the only place where our forces might have served together would be UN peacekeeping missions.

Though yes, we do make it a point to know most of what can be known about the officer corps we are facing up against.

It wasn't a romance really.

Quite like meeting up with old school / college mates after 20 + years or so.

The larger point is that a soldier does not check the religion of his enemy before he squeezes the trigger , the color of uniform & the direction the enemy comes from is sufficient for a soldier to do what he does best.

After Kargil , it was the IA who sent a letter of commendation of a Pak officer to Pakistan which led the Officer to be awarded posthumously - such is the profession of arms.

Yes, we do know a lot about each other.

As twilight descended on the British Raj, the number of Muslims in the Indian Army was about 30 per cent. Just six years later, it had come down to two per cent, according to the minister of state for defence of the time. Prime Minister Nehru was very concerned and sought to boost the recruitment of Muslims.

It does not take a genius to understand why.

Most Muslim Regiments went to Pakistan in exchange for Hindu & Sikh troops from Pakistan.
 
After Kargil , it was the IA who sent a letter of commendation of a Pak officer to Pakistan which led the Officer to be awarded posthumously - such is the profession of arms.

Any instance of Pak Army sending a letter of commendation of a Indian officer to India ??
 
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