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1965 | Lahore Cantonment is 'our aim'.

This is the true face of India. Look how Indians go into denial and delusions when confronted with reality. 
1.1971 War has been a watershed event in Hindu-Muslim relations in SA. We Muslim shave realized painfully how correct our fathers/grandfathers were in forging The Two Nation Theory. Post- 71 politics in BD has proved beyond doubt that the anti-two nation pundits were wrong and are wrong.

2. Btw, wecould not convince even100 BD Hindus to take up arms to fight. Being low cast they are forbidden to bear arms.


If I am not mistaken, Two Nation Theory is more present in Bangladesh, than in Pakistan. Simply because, Pakistan is a nation culturally different from rest of Subcontinent. As a Bangladeshi, you would know our cultural differences.

How ever, Bangladesh is a nation of Bangladeshis. Bangladeshis are of two religions, Hindus and Muslims. West Half of Bangladesh is Hindu and East Half is Muslim and is an independent state.

If I am not mistaken, Bangladeshis have been fighting their Hindu Bangladeshis half, ever since the Mughal rule ended in their land, and replaced by the British. The Muslim Bangladeshi of East Bangladesh even wanted to become separate within British India from their Western Hindu half, politically, economically, etc.

Bangladesh has been the biggest believer in the Two Nation theory even before this term "two nation theory" became popular. They even went so far to popularize it in the whole subcontinent.
From its excuse, at least us, Pakistan, got our independence from British India.
 
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Repeating same nonsense.. over n over again wont change the truth... :lol:

"According to the document, on September 22, when the Security Council was pressing for a cease-fire, the Indian Prime Minister asked General Choudhri if India could possibly win the war, he would delay accepting the cease-fire for a little while longer. The General replied that most of India's frontline ammunition had been used up and the Indian Army had suffered tank losses.

It was revealed later that only 14% of India's frontline ammunition had been fired and India still held twice the number of tanks than Pakistan..."
The whole world lied... media outlets in EU,Aus,US all liars.. no wonder india celebrates defence day on 6th september right?

NOT!

Is it self goal or what

It was revealed later that only 14% of India's frontline ammunition had been fired and India still held twice the number of tanks than Pakistan..."

In reality we had twice the no. of tanks as you and 86% of our ammo reserves..so question again

If cease fire had not been declared, who would have won the war?
 
If cease fire had not been declared, who would have won the war?

You know what I usually wonder , that Indians claim that they were close to the main city of Lahore and yet didn't capture it because the ceasefire was to be announced the next day and hence it had to be returned . Well , its really hard to believe such thing that Indian Army was in a position to capture the city and chose not to , because nothing would have provided the Republic of India with a better bargaining chip in the negotiations that followed afterwards . So well , it points that you were nowhere close to capturing the city , as you claim here usually .

As for the question , there are a lot of what-ifs for the Pakistan too , quite early before this thing , what if the command hadn't been foolishly changed for no reason and the attack delayed by one day to capture Akhnur during Op.Grand Slam ?
 
You know what I usually wonder , that Indians claim that they were close to the main city of Lahore and yet didn't capture it because the ceasefire was to be announced the next day and hence it had to be returned . Well , its really hard to believe such thing that Indian Army was in a position to capture the city and chose not to , because nothing would have provided the Republic of India with a better bargaining chip in the negotiations that followed afterwards . So well , it points that you were nowhere close to capturing the city , as you claim here usually .

As for the question , there are a lot of what-ifs for the Pakistan too , quite early before this thing , what if the command hadn't been foolishly changed for no reason and the attack delayed by one day to capture Akhnur during Op.Grand Slam ?

I do not which Indians you are talking about and frankly I do not care.Indians attacked Lahore with a single purpose to relieve pressure of Jammu and they succeeded in their primary objective . capturing Lahore, capturing as much Pakistani territory as possible etc were all secondary objectives(i.e. it wolf have made good prize had it been captured but not capturing it does not dent our war plans.) After all Indians have never shown any inclination! in making Lahore a part of their country as Pakistan does with Kashmir.

secondly the point being discussed here is when the war ended India was on much better footing than Pakistan with respect to losses incurred ,resources remaining and territories captured.do you disagree??
 
secondly the point being discussed here is when the war ended India was on much better footing than Pakistan with respect to losses incurred ,resources remaining and territories captured.do you disagree??

Whatever the purpose of the attack on Lahore was , its capture , as usually claimed by pretty much everywhere which was imminent according to Indians , if you had the capability , would have been carried out to have the biggest bargaining chip in the negotiations which ensued like always . But since it wasn't carried out , it points to something else , that Indian Army wasn't in a position to do it . Nothing to do with making Lahore - a part of India .

One can argue all day on that , who was on better footing . Neutral sources however point out that the war was a stalemate , with PAF gaining supremacy over its counterpart and the state of Pakistan walking out with capture of 10% of Rann of Kutch , which was authorized internationally in 1968 .
 
Whatever the purpose of the attack on Lahore was , its capture , as usually claimed by pretty much everywhere which was imminent according to Indians , if you had the capability , would have been carried out to have the biggest bargaining chip in the negotiations which ensued like always . But since it wasn't carried out , it points to something else , that Indian Army wasn't in a position to do it . Nothing to do with making Lahore - a part of India .

One can argue all day on that , who was on better footing . Neutral sources however point out that the war was a stalemate , with PAF gaining supremacy over its counterpart and the state of Pakistan walking out with capture of 10% of Rann of Kutch , which was authorized internationally in 1968 .
I ll repeat what I have said before capturing Lahore was a secondary objective and not the primary one and if you think what i am saying is wrong then prove it.

Do tell one of your pre war objectives you completed in the war?

Neutral sources also point out that you far exaggerate your air kills and far undermine your losses. Pakistan lost 43 aircraft's yet admits to only 19 losses, they also claim that Indian lost 73 aircraft, yet Pakistani claim 119.

IAF sortie rate was much higher than and its attrition rate was lower than PAF.

Name one sector which you had air supremacy/superiority.
Your air chief claimed air supremacy on first day of the war itself but where was this air supremacy??

"Nur Khan claimed air superiority for PAF by the end of 6th Sept, the first proper day of air war itself. He went on to claim air supremacy by the end of 8th Sept. No other Air Chief has made such hollow claim either before or after. What actually transpired was a half-hearted counter air battle by fighters of both sides on 7 Sept. In the face of heavy attrition both sides stopped using fighters by daylight, for counter air battle.6 Both the air forces preferred the option of night bombing utilising Canberra bomber. Canberra bombing though causing occasional damage and serving to harass the personnel was ineffective in winning the battle of air superiority. But it was persisted with since night interception capability was rather limited. “In 1965, night interception proved most frustrating for the PAF when often the F-104s failed to locate low flying IAF Canberras. Streaming tactics used by IAF with multi-pronged attacks and constant changes in altitude and heading strained PAF”.7
After few sorties by the IAF against East Pakistan on 7 Sept a political embargo was imposed on further attacks in the East. This remained in force despite continued PAF strikes in East on 7 Sept, 10 Sept and 14 Sept.

On the Indian side MiG-21s (T–74) had recently been inducted and were not yet night capable for interception. Night flying of Gnat aircraft was limited due to poor cockpit lighting. The night fighter Vampires were already obsolete. Therefore, for all practical purposes, both the air forces having gone at each other on 6th and 7th Sept, gave up any further fighter effort as they had suffered unsustainable attrition.8 The exception being a four Mystere fighters strike over Pasroor on 12 Sept by the IAF.9 During the limited air superiority battle IAF suffered an attrition rate of 20 percent whereas PAF suffered 12.5 percent attrition.10

The Pak Air Chief continued to express strange notions of air superiority. The PAF, barring the night attacks by the Canberras, totally gave up its forays into Indian territory. It concentrated on air defence of PAF airbases and certain amount of support to its army coming under attack at Lahore and Sialkot. Whereas at Khem Karan where Pak armour had launched its major offensive, Indian troops of 3 Cavalry and 4 Div did not come under any air attack. If PAF had achieved air supremacy as claimed, it could have decimated Indian Army’s opposition to its major armour thrust – which some claimed was to isolate Amritsar by capturing Beas Bridges. Pak lost 108 tanks here, quite a few in working condition. Nevertheless, Nur Khan claimed air supremacy over Pak air space, even though it was the IAF which attacked Pak armour and its supplies. IAF fighters continued to operate over Pak territory and air space.

In 1965 the only two offensives of the Pak Army were at Chhamb and Khem Karan. In both these sectors PAF did not win the air battle.
At Chhamb both air forces continued to operate, with IAF halting Pak advance well short of Akhnoor. Therefore, the PAF could not claim air superiority here. At Khem Karan it was the IAF, which was more active. At Lahore, on the critical day of 6th Sept where Indian Army had launched an offensive PAF had an upper hand. During the rest of the war majority of the PAF air support sorties for Pak Army were over its own territory whereas majority of IAF’s air support sorties were over Pak territory. So actually IAF had the favourable air situation over the battle area of concern during most of the war. In their respective territories both air forces were by and large free to operate. On the balance it was the IAF, which had greater control of air than the PAF. Of course IAF lost more number of aircrafts, a result of its larger number of offensive sorties over enemy territory, but its attrition rate was lesser than that of the PAF’s. A causative analysis of IAF & PAF losses provides a better perspective rather than relying just on numbers."
 
@ares I never claimed it as the primary objective actually but the priority of the objective didn't matter since according to Indians , Lahore was in the sight of Indian Army and yet they didn't capture it because of the ceasefire that had to be announced the next day and thus it had to be returned , when all logic and common sense dictates that it would have been captured if it was the case . That is what I am saying . If the objectives had been achieved , why would the world have called it a stalemate then ? Before I counter it with any other source , may I know , where it is copied from ? Because the tone suggests a biased source , not factual .
 
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the same way pakistanis intended to do breakfast in jhodhpur, lunch in jaipur and dinner in delhi.....with just 2000 men........and 45 tanks......in 1971(longewala battle)...well thatz all past now

India Lost 500 tanks in Sialkot, Chawinda sector. It was the biggest tank battle ever. It is near my place and I saw India Tanks there set in every round-about as a symbol of victory.
India got what he achieved. by loosing 500 tanks in one sector?

Source: 1965 | Lahore Cantonment is 'our aim'.
 
Actually Gen Chaudhuri had proclaimed he planned to have a drink in Lahore Gymkhana next evening!!

Once again, I ask: can you point to any source for this belief of yours?

India achieved its aim of shafting Op Grandslam by threatening a high value objective whose fall was unacceptable to Pak.

Pak had to recoil 12 Inf Division from Akhnur Sect to defend Lahore. This diluted whatever advantages Pak had intended to gain.

Having a Drink or a meal in the Gymkhana to the un initiated was a part of Psy warfare backed by the attack.

Yet,if posters here wish to get childish glee in finding a silver lining - be my guest.

India achieved what it wanted.

For you, too, I have the same question: where did you get this information?
 
Once again, I ask: can you point to any source for this belief of yours?



For you, too, I have the same question: where did you get this information?


This was all over the media - yours, Pakistani and international. Why don't you try and find yourself, or ask someone of that era? I had read it myself.

This is the true face of India. Look how Indians go into denial and delusions when confronted with reality. 



If I am not mistaken, Two Nation Theory is more present in Bangladesh, than in Pakistan. Simply because, Pakistan is a nation culturally different from rest of Subcontinent. As a Bangladeshi, you would know our cultural differences.

How ever, Bangladesh is a nation of Bangladeshis. Bangladeshis are of two religions, Hindus and Muslims. West Half of Bangladesh is Hindu and East Half is Muslim and is an independent state.

If I am not mistaken, Bangladeshis have been fighting their Hindu Bangladeshis half, ever since the Mughal rule ended in their land, and replaced by the British. The Muslim Bangladeshi of East Bangladesh even wanted to become separate within British India from their Western Hindu half, politically, economically, etc.

Bangladesh has been the biggest believer in the Two Nation theory even before this term "two nation theory" became popular. They even went so far to popularize it in the whole subcontinent.
From its excuse, at least us, Pakistan, got our independence from British India.


1. When the Two Nation Theory was enunciated in 1905, present day Pakistan had sizable number of Hindus and Sikhs. So much so, in the 1946 elections (dubbed as the referendum for Pakistan), this area had voted against forming Pakistan. But we under Suhroawrdy had voted overwhelmingly for Pakistan. Also to remember, the elections were on separate electorate. That means the Muslims of present Pakistan had voted against forming Pakistan.
2. Bengali Muslims, who had been soldiers, administrators and leaders of society, had been subjugated to the Hindus in a planned way by the British for own benefit. As such seeking separation was our political agenda.
3. According to the last census (2001), we have a total of about 8% non-Muslims. Hindus would be about half of that. They don't belong to any particular location but are spread out all over. Being low cast / shuddar class they are happier in BD than Brahmin dominated India. However, politics of Indian extremist Hindu parties and our BAL have made them restless.
 
India achieved its aim of shafting Op Grandslam by threatening a high value objective whose fall was unacceptable to Pak.

Pak had to recoil 12 Inf Division from Akhnur Sect to defend Lahore. This diluted whatever advantages Pak had intended to gain.

Having a Drink or a meal in the Gymkhana to the un initiated was a part of Psy warfare backed by the attack.

Yet,if posters here wish to get childish glee in finding a silver lining - be my guest.

India achieved what it wanted.
Field Marshal Ayub Khan wasted 24 hours of crucial time by halting Operation Grand Slam in Kashmir to change the commander in that region. This blunder gave Indian army sufficient time to mobilize and rollback the gains of Pakistani armed forces.
 
HAHAHA. This actually always makes me laugh. Nashta karne chale Thay Lahore. :p. They did not actually know, Pakistan is the land with brave sons. Like M.M.Alam. Naam to suna ho ga. :). And we still have courageous sons. We bleed green. :)
 
the same way pakistanis intended to do breakfast in jhodhpur, lunch in jaipur and dinner in delhi.....with just 2000 men........and 45 tanks......in 1971(longewala battle)...well thatz all past now

Politics got involved. :) when Pakistan has to fight for the sake of country, ain't nobody is dare to defeat. IT IS PAK ARMY WHO IS FIGHTING AGAINST TERRORISTS/TERRORISM. WHO ARE PAIN IN NECK FOR THE WOLRD. OUR SOLDIERS ARE STRONG ENOUGH TO FIGHT BECAUSE ITS FOR THE SAKE OF MOTHERLAND. And on one hand neighbors are producing terrorism or supporting them. #Peace.
 
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