1965 Indo-Pak War: Busting the myth

[Mav3rick]

Pakistan celebrates this war as Defense day by successfully thwarting an Indian attack on Pakistan. They have created a narrative that India attacked Pakistan without any provocation and that Pakistan defeated India resoundingly. They don’t talk about any Pakistani operation to capture Kashmir and Indian offensive as a result of the same. Masters of propaganda.

1965: How Pakistan won the war of propaganda

For the past five decades, Pakistan has officially celebrated September 6 as ‘Defence Day’ in remembrance of its historic ‘victory’

nation.com.pk

Well, in defence of the story on this side, Pakistan did initiate the incursion but only in the disputed areas.......the disputed areas which Pakistan considers its own and hence did nothing wrong. On the other hand, India crossed the International Border and hence initiated the WAR.

 

[VkdIndian]

Pakistan did initiate the incursion but only in the disputed areas.

With this logic all nations would end up launching a similar offensive “just in the disputed territory” as per their convenience.
What if China launches an attack on the islands that are disputed with Japan? Likewise so many similar cases across the world.

India did what any nation would do to defend its territory. Attack on any part of its territory is an attack on a nation.

 

[bluesky]

"Others have described him as a Bengali, when he was actually Urdu-speaking Bihari. His forefathers settled in Calcutta from Patna, the family migrated to East Pakistan in August 1947, and then to Karachi in the wake of 1971 upheaval."

Whoever Muslim came and settled in Bengal since 1203 AD are the sons of our soil and are Bengali. Even if you go through the history of Bihar, it was always a Province of Bengal whatever maybe its local language.

MM Alam was from Dhaka which is in Bangladesh and was not from Peshawar.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Well, in defence of the story on this side, Pakistan did initiate the incursion but only in the disputed areas.......the disputed areas which Pakistan considers its own and hence did nothing wrong. On the other hand, India crossed the International Border and hence initiated the WAR.

That also means, if india will initiate the incursion in PAK kashmir and gilgit baltistan then it will not call for initiating a war since these are disputed areas which India considers its own?

And, Pakistan will not use navy and will not bomb on any other part of India. Pakistan will going fight in only jammu & kahsmir including Pak kashmir and GB ?

 

[PakistaniAtBahrain]

Whoever Muslim came and settled in Bengal since 1203 AD are the sons of our soil and are Bengali. Even if you go through the history of Bihar, it was always a Province of Bengal whatever maybe its local language.

look, if you want to claim MM Alam as a Bengali, then that is your wish.

facts are, he was Bihari, chose to be Pakistani (United Pakistan) after 1947, and he clearly didnt consider himself as the son of the Bengali soil when he chose to fight for Pakistan after 1971 and die in Karachi in 2013. buried at PAF Air Base Masroor.

MM Alam was from Dhaka which is in Bangladesh and was not from Peshwar.

as i said earlier, being Pakistani is not an ethnicity, nor does it matter where you were born. it only matters what you believe, what you fight for and what you are ready to die for. if you believe in "la ilaha illallah muhammadur rasulullah" and ditch your ethnicity and ethnic nationalism, then you are a Pakistani.

 

[Mav3rick]

With this logic all nations would end up launching a similar offensive “just in the disputed territory” as per their convenience.
What if China launches an attack on the islands that are disputed with Japan? Likewise so many similar cases across the world.

India did what any nation would do to defend its territory. Attack on any part of its territory is an attack on a nation.

I did not challenge India's response or reaction. I merely presented our side of the view. It is evident that Pakistani establishment did not expect India to initiate a full scale war.

That also means, if india will initiate the incursion in PAK kashmir and gilgit baltistan then it will not call for initiating a war since these are disputed areas which India considers its own?

And, Pakistan will not use navy and will not bomb on any other part of India. Pakistan will going fight in only jammu & kahsmir including Pak kashmir and GB ?

Perhaps that would have been the case, had India attempted to do so earlier. However, based on what India did in response to Pakistani incursion in the disputed area, I believe Pakistan too would follow in the footstep and initiate open hostilities if such an event occurs in the future; there is now a precedent, a preceding example.

 

[HostileInsurgent]

Came across with a video regarding 1965 war...

 

[VkdIndian]

Came across with a video regarding 1965 war...

This is the truth for rest of the world.
For Pakistan, it is a different truth.

I did not challenge India's response or reaction. I merely presented our side of the view. It is evident that Pakistani establishment did not expect India to initiate a full scale war.

Ok. I accept your point here.

 

[Destranator]

"Others have described him as a Bengali, when he was actually Urdu-speaking Bihari. His forefathers settled in Calcutta from Patna, the family migrated to East Pakistan in August 1947, and then to Karachi in the wake of 1971 upheaval."

Knowing MM Alam

Raja Ehsan Aziz - Much has appeared in the press by way of befitting tribute to M. M. Alam, the national hero who departed on March 18, 2013. Yet much remains

nation.com.pk

as for being sidelined in 1971

"During the 1971 war, when I was flying the Mirages, he (MM Alam) was attached back to Sargodha (West Pakistan) but not allowed to fly; being too valuable an asset of the previous war to be exposed to enemy action."

An icon, hero, legend and friend – Air Commodore MM Alam | The Express Tribune

He was a national hero with the aura, not of arrogance, but confidence of a thorough professional.

tribune.com.pk

i myself come from a bihari muhajir background, and everyone from my background knows that MM Alam was a bihari. but some people make the mistake of thinking he is bengali because they look at where he was born (Calcutta, Bengal) and that he spoke fluent Bengali as well as Urdu (his mother tongue)

I am aware of these details but wasn't his mum Bengali? Also, I find the "too valuable to deploy" argument a bit ridiculous (this sounds like a retroactive argument to save face given that he remained loyal to Pakistan). Pakistan was fighting an existential war against India. If he was "too valuable" to fight then, what was his service being saved for? WW3?

Regardless, I must mention I have utmost respect for him. My beef is only with those who harmed unarmed civilians on both sides.

Whoever Muslim came and settled in Bengal since 1203 AD are the sons of our soil and are Bengali. Even if you go through the history of Bihar, it was always a Province of Bengal whatever maybe its local language.

MM Alam was from Dhaka which is in Bangladesh and was not from Peshwar.

Counter argument: Are all the Bangladeshi Biharis Bengali then?

 

[Destranator]

look, if you want to claim MM Alam as a Bengali, then that is your wish.

facts are, he was Bihari, chose to be Pakistani (United Pakistan) after 1947, and he clearly didnt consider himself as the son of the Bengali soil when he chose to fight for Pakistan after 1971 and die in Karachi in 2013. buried at PAF Air Base Masroor.

View attachment 723369



as i said earlier, being Pakistani is not an ethnicity, nor does it matter where you were born. it only matters what you believe, what you fight for and what you are ready to die for. if you believe in "la ilaha illallah muhammadur rasulullah" and ditch your ethnicity and ethnic nationalism, then you are a Pakistani.

I agree that he was never a Bangladeshi.

 

[PakistaniAtBahrain]

I am aware of these details but wasn't his mum Bengali?

i havent heard that his mum was Bengali. only heard about his father's side and MM Alam's mother tongue was Urdu, so i suppose his mother must have been a very good Urdu speaker, and therefore unlikely to be Bengali.

Also, I find the "too valuable to deploy" argument a bit ridiculous (this sounds like a retroactive argument to save face given that he remained loyal to Pakistan, although I cannot confirm).

if he was going to hook up with Bangladesh in 1971, then he could easily done it after 1971, like a few others did. but he didnt.

Counter argument: Are all the Bangladeshi Biharis Bengali then?

i dont know. i think that is the problem with a nationalist movement that is all about one ethnicity, one language, one culture, etc. what happens to those that arent part of this one group? in Pakistan, the Pakistani Bengalis are Pakistanis and there is no contradiction because being a Pakistani is an ideology and not an ethnicity.

 

[Windjammer]

IAF takes a candid look at the 1965 war

It was the first air battle between India and Pakistan. The Indian Air Force was numerically superior, with 28 combat squadrons to PAF’s 11, but it was saddled with technologically inferior fighters. And, caught off-guard by the PAF offensive, India had lost 35 of its aircraft on the ground during pre-emptive strikes — one on Pathankot on September 6 and then on Kalaikunda, a day later.
IAF’s latest history of its operations in the 1965 war acknowledges .it “suffered disproportionately higher losses” than PAF

IAF takes a candid look at the 1965 war - General news - NewsLocker

It was the first air battle between India and Pakistan. The Indian Air Force was numerically superior, with 28 combat squadrons to PAF’s 11, but it was saddled with technologically inferior fighters. And, caught off-guard by the PAF offensive, India had lost 35 of its aircraft on the ground...

www.newslocker.com

 

[Destranator]

if he was going to hook up with Bangladesh in 1971, then he could easily done it after 1971, like a few others did. but he didnt.

Sorry, I initially mistyped. I have no doubt he was always loyal to Pakistan and never a Bangladeshi. What I cannot confirm is whether PAF truely believed during the war that he was too valuable to deploy but I find the argument ridiculous.

 

[bluesky]

look, if you want to claim MM Alam as a Bengali, then that is your wish.

facts are, he was Bihari, chose to be Pakistani (United Pakistan) after 1947, and he clearly didnt consider himself as the son of the Bengali soil when he chose to fight for Pakistan after 1971 and die in Karachi in 2013. buried at PAF Air Base Masroor.

Do not please twist the Pakistan Movement. It was started in Dhaka when the All-India Muslim was formed there in 1910. The rest is history. You are going after the name Pakistan. It is called twisting the truth for which you guys are so expert.

 

[Destranator]

i dont know. i think that is the problem with a nationalist movement that is all about one ethnicity, one language, one culture, etc. what happens to those that arent part of this one group? in Pakistan, the Pakistani Bengalis are Pakistanis and there is no contradiction because being a Pakistani is an ideology and not an ethnicity.

Bengali nationalism is often misunderstood. The idea is not to screw other languages and ethnicities but to value Bengali culture.