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1965 Biggest Tank Battle since WW II - Pakistani Victory : The Australian

India lost more in materials and men in Kargil (including several aircraft), so I take they lost? That seems to be the line being pushed here by some of the Indian posters.

The 1965 war was a strategic stalemate.

Not really. Pakistan initiated the war by pushing in irregulars into J&K in a hope to do a land grab with the help of local population. The strategic objective of Pakistan was to capture the part of J&K that was with India.

India responded by opening additional fronts on the IB. India's tactical objective was to relieve pressure on the J&K front.

so did Pakistan's objective succeed? Did India's ??
 
The 1965 war was a strategic stalemate.

Wars are fought for acquiring certain objectives,not strategic stalemates. Pakistan's objective was to settle K-Issue by force,where as Indian high command from the fear of losing strategic city of Jammu decided to shift the front to the plains of Punjab and your smaller but highly trained army just could not afford to fight on such a large scale of border.At last your army ended up defending Lahore and Sialkot sector. So,what did you get from such a strategic stalemate?

PS: By the way,you must thank God almighty for this ludicrous strategic stalemate which manged to save your face for at least six years.Otherwise the way your scanty resources were draining out,the Indians could have outnumbered you in every aspect within a week.
 
Exactly what achievement does Pakistan celebrates on its defence day?

The achievement of defeating those evil intended pigs who wanted to do breakfast at Lahore but ended up fighting for the protection of their own land.
 
Congratulation for victory!!
Let me present few trophies (Paton :D)from war ..enjoy!

605px-PattonNagar01.jpg

583px-PattonNagar03.jpg

PattonNagar.png

These images does not belong to the chawinda battle ,they are from another battle .And your post is not related to this thread.Grow some balls kiddo
 
The achievement of defeating those evil intended pigs who wanted to do breakfast at Lahore but ended up fighting for the protection of their own land.

Yes I know that pakistanis are so ashamed of their defeats in wars that they teach their own cooked up history to their kids in "Pakistan studies". No need to publicize it so shamelessly. We already know the education level of you people.
 
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Like we said before. Best wishes. Here's hoping Pakistan keeps 'winning' like that in future too :) :cheers:
I really enjoyed indian trolls on this thread, guess @Aeronaut was right that I've hurt a lot of people by starting this thread. :lol:



Yea right, if any 3rd party writes something in your favor, its unbiased view and if it goes against you its completely cr@p. :rofl:
 
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Yes I know that pakistanis are so ashamed of their defeats in wars that they teach their own cooked up history to their kids in "Pakistan studies". No need to publicize it so shamelessly. We already know the education level of you people.

By the bull **** you are posting on PDF all the time and your ignorance about the indo-pak war facts your level of education is obvious.I am amazed these days rapists are talking about education :rofl:I have a lot if indian friends but i really want to kill indians like you who are brainwashed and are the illegal kids of bal thackeray and shiv sena workers)
 
Battle of Chawinda was so bad for the Indians, the Indian tanks columns were divided and suffered from miscommunication, that they started firing on each other thinking the other was Pakistani armored calvary. This according to the Indian commander who led the operation into Pakistan (forgot his name). He wrote this in his account of the battle and decided the attack has failed and Pakistan performed a counter-attack and decimated and pushed back the surviving Indian units back across the border.

This what in army parlance is called The Fog of War.

Thats what wars are all about, you win some & you lose some.

What is more important is the lessons learnt and ground applied. This was dosplayed well in 71 at Basantar.
 
A PIECE OF HISTORY WORTH READING
When India Invaded Pakistan
“We are at war” Pakistani President Ayub Khan made an emergency broadcast to the nation on 6th September, 1965. He said the Indian attack was proof of the evil intentions, which India had always harbored against Pakistan.

Since August 1965 tensions between India and Pakistan was high because of the Kashmir issue. India alleged Pakistan had sent militants to Kashmir to fight against Indian Army. Pakistan claimed it was a local uprising against India’s atrocities.

The issue was raised in different international forums and India assured at these forums that it will not cross the international borders. But at the midnight between 5th and 6th September, 1965, Indian army invaded West Pakistan, crossing the international border at three points.

Who started the war?

BBC News on 6th September, 1965, reported India-Pakistan war as: “Indian Army invades W. Pakistan”.

According to BBC News “Indian troops have invaded West Pakistan, crossing the border at three points in an attack, which appears to be aimed mainly at the city of Lahore. Authorities in Delhi say their action was intended to prevent a direct attack by Pakistani forces against India.”

One of the reasons India’s then Defense Minister Yashwantrao Chavan gave for crossing international borders and invading Pakistan was that “It was quite apparent Pakistan’s next move was to attack Punjab across the international frontier.”

But in reality when India crossed Pakistani border in Punjab and arrived in Batapur, Pakistani army was not even prepared for war. Pakistan believed that India will not cross the border after assurance at international forums. When Indian troops didn’t find much resistance at border they thought it must be a trap, and became more careful, which ultimately affected their pace of attack and the Pakistan Army got some time to prepare, defend and counterattack. This clearly shows that Pakistani Army was not having any intentions to cross the international border.

Later, as a result of counterattack by Pakistan near the west bank of the BRB Canal, at the border of India and Pakistan, Major General Prasad’s entourage itself was ambushed and he was forced to flee his vehicle.

Other reason that the Indian Army gave for invading Pakistan was that Pakistan was involved in the uprising in Kashmir and alleged that Pakistan had sent militants in Kashmir to fight against the Indian Army. Pakistan’s stand on this issue was that Kashmir is a disputed territory and whatever happens in Kashmir cannot be dubbed as a war.

BBC News also stated that ceasefire line was established in 1949 after the first Indo-Pakistan war into Jammu and Kashmir. Since then there have been a number of clashes along the ceasefire line, there had been a few minor clashes in the Rann of Kutch too, but this is the first time Indian troops have crossed into West Pakistan in what is being seen as an act of war.

On the other side, before the start of all-out war, Indian Prime Minister Lal Bhadur Shastri had said: “We will open the front of our choice”. Similarly, the Indian chief of army staff Joyanto Nath Chowdhuri had said: “I’ll have a bada (large) peg in the Lahore Gymkhana.” All these statements are recorded in history but what happened was completely against the wishes of Indian government and Indian Army. Pakistan Army completely destroyed their dreams.

It is obvious from the above facts that India is the one who started the war and invaded Pakistan.

When India invaded Pakistan

After the Indian invasion, Pakistan Army not only defended its borders against the much mightier Indian Army, but it also moved into the Indian territory and claimed to have captured 1,075 km2 of Indian territory.

Time magazine reported that “despite claims from both sides the awkward fact is that Khemkaran is under Pakistan administration.”

The London Daily Mirror reported: “There is a smell of death in the burning Pakistan sun. For it was here that India’s attacking forces came to a dead stop.”

“By all accounts the courage displayed by the Pakistan Air Force pilots is reminiscent of the bravery of the few young and dedicated pilots who saved this country from Nazi invaders in the critical battle of Britain during the last war.” stated Patrick Seale, in The Observer, London, on September 12, 1965.

In Times reporter Louis Karrar wrote: “Who can defeat a nation which knows how to play hide and seek with death.”

“Pakistan claims to have destroyed something like 1/3rd the Indian Air Force, and foreign observers, who are in a position to know say that Pakistani pilots have claimed even higher kills than this; but the Pakistani Air Force are being scrupulously honest in evaluating these claims. They are crediting Pakistan Air Force only those killings that can be checked from other sources,” said Roy Meloni on American Broadcasting Corporation (September 15, 1965).

“During the night they threw in every reinforcement they could find. But wave after wave of attacks were repulsed by the Pakistanis. India is being soundly beaten by a nation, which is outnumbered by four and a half to one in population and three to one in size of armed forces,” said the Daily Times, London.

USA Aviation Week & Space Technology in December 1968 issue said, “For the PAF, the 1965 war as climatic as the Israeli victory over the Arabs in 1967. A further similarity was that Indian air power had an approximately 5:1 numerical superiority at the start of the conflict. Unlike the Middle East conflict, the Pakistani air victory was achieved to a large degree by air-to-air combat rather than on an air-to-ground one. But it was as absolute as that attained by Israel.”

Indian failure can also be assessed by the Official History of the 1965 War drafted by the Ministry of Defense of India in 1992. According to this document, on September 22, when the Security Council was pressurizing both the countries for the ceasefire, Indian Prime Minister asked commanding Gen. Chaudhuri if India could possibly win the war. The general urged negotiations for ceasefire and replied that most of India’s frontline ammunition had been used up and the Indian Army had suffered considerable tank losses. But later it was determined that till that time India had used only 14% of its frontline ammunition.

On the other side, our then foreign minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto declared in a very emotional speech at the UN Security Council that “If needed, for Kashmir we would fight a war for a thousand years” although Pakistan had used 80% of its frontline ammunition till that time. But the nation was still determined to fight. That was the main difference between the morale of Indian and Pakistani people, which was sky-high at our end.

The war lasted till September 22, 1965, when a ceasefire was declared due to the intervention of the United Nations and it was decided that on the International border pre-war positions should be held by the both countries.

It can be concluded that Pakistan was invaded by India and Pakistan successfully defended its borders. Many Pakistanis and international analysts considered the performance of Pakistani military to be positive. September 6 is celebrated as Defense Day in Pakistan, in commemoration of the successful defense of Lahore against the Indian army. The performance of the Pakistani Air Force, in particular, was praised. Kashmir issue was once again highlighted in the international forums and United Nations passed four resolutions (210, 211, 214 and 215) on this issue.

Maj. Raja Aziz Bhatti was awarded with Nishan-e-Haider and became the hero of Pakistan who died defending the lines near Lahore. Many stories of bravery and patriotism emerged from the battlefield. It was first time that Pakistan was invaded and the people of Pakistan were standing united with the soldiers of Pakistan Army to defend their country. Today again we are under attack by the enemies of Pakistan from Inside as well as outside Pakistan. Our spirit should be the same as it was in 1965 so that we can again defend our homeland and tell our enemies that we were united and we are united to defend our Pakistan.
 
Some NEUTRAL assesments of indo pak war of 1965 from wiki. Only one source has praised Pakistani army as they held their own against a larger indian army.


According to the Library of Congress Country Studies conducted by the Federal Research Division of the United States[73] –

The war was militarily inconclusive; each side held prisoners and some territory belonging to the other. Losses were relatively heavy—on the Pakistani side, twenty aircraft, 200 tanks, and 3,800 troops. Pakistan's army had been able to withstand Indian pressure, but a continuation of the fighting would only have led to further losses and ultimate defeat for Pakistan. Most Pakistanis, schooled in the belief of their own martial prowess, refused to accept the possibility of their country's military defeat by "Hindu India" and were, instead, quick to blame their failure to attain their military aims on what they considered to be the ineptitude of Ayub Khan and his government.

TIME magazine reported that India held 690 mi2 of Pakistan territory while Pakistan held 250 mi2 of Indian territory in Kashmir and Rajasthan. Additionally, Pakistan had lost almost half its armour temporarily.[74] The article further elaborates,

Severely mauled by the larger Indian armed forces, Pakistan could continue the fight only by teaming up with Red China and turning its back on the U.N.

Devin T. Hagerty wrote in his book "South Asia in world politics"[75] –

The invading Indian forces outfought their Pakistani counterparts and halted their attack on the outskirts of Lahore, Pakistan's second-largest city. By the time United Nations intervened on September 22, Pakistan had suffered a clear defeat.

In his book "National identity and geopolitical visions",[76] Gertjan Dijkink writes –

The superior Indian forces, however, won a decisive victory and the army could have even marched on into Pakistani territory had external pressure not forced both combatants to cease their war efforts.

An excerpt from Stanley Wolpert's India,[77] summarizing the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965,

In three weeks the second Indo-Pak War ended in what appeared to be a draw when the embargo placed by Washington on U.S. ammunition and replacements for both armies forced cessation of conflict before either side won a clear victory. India, however, was in a position to inflict grave damage to, if not capture, Pakistan's capital of the Punjab when the cease-fire was called, and controlled Kashmir's strategic Uri-Poonch bulge, much to Ayub's chagrin.

In his book titled The greater game: India's race with destiny and China, David Van Praagh wrote[7] –

India won the war. It gained 1,840 km2 (710 sq mi) of Pakistani territory: 640 km2 (250 sq mi) in Azad Kashmir, Pakistan's portion of the state; 460 km2 (180 sq mi) of the Sailkot sector; 380 km2 (150 sq mi) far to the south of Sindh; and most critical, 360 km2 (140 sq mi) on the Lahore front. Pakistan took 540 km2 (210 sq mi) of Indian territory: 490 km2 (190 sq mi) in the Chhamb sector and 50 km2 (19 sq mi) around Khem Karan.

Dennis Kux's "India and the United States estranged democracies" also provides a summary of the war,[78]

Although both sides lost heavily in men and material, and neither gained a decisive military advantage, India had the better of the war. New Delhi achieved its basic goal of thwarting Pakistan's attempt to seize Kashmir by force. Pakistan gained nothing from a conflict which it had instigated.

BBC reported that the war served game changer in Pakistani politics,[79]

The defeat in the 1965 war led to the army's invincibility being challenged by an increasingly vocal opposition. This became a surge after his protege, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, deserted him and established the Pakistan People's Party.

"A region in turmoil: South Asian conflicts since 1947" by Robert Johnson mentions[8] –

India's strategic aims were modest – it aimed to deny Pakistani Army victory, although it ended up in possession of 720 square miles (1,900 km2) of Pakistani territory for the loss of just 220 square miles (570 km2) of its own.

An excerpt from William M. Carpenter and David G. Wiencek's "Asian security handbook: terrorism and the new security environment"[80] –

A brief but furious 1965 war with India began with a covert Pakistani thrust across the Kashmiri cease-fire line and ended up with the city of Lahore threatened with encirclement by Indian Army. Another UN-sponsored cease-fire left borders unchanged, but Pakistan's vulnerability had again been exposed.

English historian John Keay's "India: A History" provides a summary of the 1965 war[81] –

The 1965 Indo-Pak war lasted barely a month. Pakistan made gains in the Rajasthan desert but its main push against India's Jammu-Srinagar road link was repulsed and Indian tanks advanced to within a sight of Lahore. Both sides claimed victory but India had most to celebrate.

Uk Heo and Shale Asher Horowitz write in their book "Conflict in Asia: Korea, China-Taiwan, and India-Pakistan"[82] –

Again India appeared, logistically at least, to be in a superior position but neither side was able to mobilize enough strength to gain a decisive victory.

Newsweek magazine, however, praised the Pakistani military's ability to hold off the much larger Indian Army.[83]

By just the end of the week, in fact, it was clear that the Pakistanis were more than holding their own.
 
1965 Indo-Pak war:

Pakistan's objective: Occupying Kashmir.
Result: Failure.

India's objective: Defending Kashmir.
Result: Success.

And Pakistan won the war?? My god!!


@Flamingo How was your trip to Kashmir dear? I saw those beautiful pics, really awesome!! Alas our dear friend
A1Kaid needs a VISA to go there, even if we allow him to... :D


You lost the 1965 war, India lost the air war and the ground war. PA's overall objective of capturing Kashmir did not succeed but the battles that actually happened were mostly won by PA. It's hard to believe any country that admits they lost the air war (India) yet would still like to argue they won the war. You don't win the war if you lost the air war, it's practically impossible when the enemy has aerial domination over you...PAF was launching ground attacks on Indian columns and ground forces.



Yes go look at them, Pakistan scored a 3:1 kill ratio against Indian army in Battle of Chawinda. It was a crushing defeat for India, India's best First Armored Tank Division which was the pride of India (I don't why) was defeated.


Battle of Chawinda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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India lost more in materials and men in Kargil (including several aircraft), so I take they lost? That seems to be the line being pushed here by some of the Indian posters.

The 1965 war was a strategic stalemate.

bhai jaan kargil was a text book back stabbing case on part of pakistan

yes we were taken with owr pants down

yes indians lost many lifes

yes indians paid a very heavy price for beleaving in peace with pakistan

but but but ...what did pakistan lost

the moral of the pakistan army was all time low as they count take the humiliation they got after all there hard work was messed up when mushi ordered retreat and indians killed retreating pakistani soldiers and blow up the pakistani base camps but the devine PAF had to sit owt

pakistan made itself a laughing stalk and branded as a over zelous and over advanturous nation which can never be trusted with and in process lost the trust of USA & west and since it had said that its army was not involved and kashmiri mujahiddines were there so lost the trust of kashmiries aswell and killed there kashmir cause

indians pulled up there socks Indian army and intellegence got an shok of life and started inquiries which led to mordanization of its all armed forces and gave intellegence more power and status in MOD which was bad for pakistan as iit slowli lost technikal edge over india

pakistan lost its biggest strategick partner and its strategick asssets and in time its own assets turned up agaisnst it and in hope of bleeding india dry pakistan is bleeding all over while india kept on building the pressure


so tell me guys how was kargil a victory for pakistan


now about 1965 if mods permits i can give youtube links where pakistani celebrities and one CM of punjab has to say some very interesting stuff but i know pakistanies will say youtube dosent works there or worse mods will ban me for that so the nut shell is whether we lost heavli in air assets and tanks thing is it helped us to re group to give pakistan a taste of its own medicine and such are the effects of that pakistani fauj is still unable to forget the humiliation of 1971


thanks pakistan for kargil and 1965 war you atleast woke up the sleeping and so called peace loving Indian Govt :cheers:
 

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