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1962: For anyone who haven't read this...

Let's show some respect (yes even from me who is working on my "attitude"), and not solely "以成败论英雄" ... especially considering this old Kashmiri Pandit dispatched medical teams to China as early as 1938 during much worse times ...

Please sir would you please educate me on the status of the pundits? it has always interested me. Were they run out? how? who ran them out? how did it happen?
 
Please sir would you please educate me on the status of the pundits? it has always interested me. Were they run out? how? who ran them out? how did it happen?

Sorry Mister. South Asian members would be much more knowledgeable about the upheavals that resulted in the displacement of Kashmiri Pandits from the "valley" ...

And the Pandits were by no means the only group it seems - just the most famous. There may have been Muslims displaced from the "valley" in earlier turbulent times, too.

I only indirectly heard about it because one of my preceptors during my training was from Kashmir - in fact all I knew was that he is a Brahmin and originally from Kashmir. He didn't say anything specific to me. One day he sighed ... "it was such a good place but then" ...

The internet advanced the topic for me a little bit but I am still completely hazy about it.

However, let's not kid ourselves ... this is likely a "sensitive" topic around here ... and still "fresh".

My sympathy most certainly goes with the Pandits, but also with the "Valley" Muslims.

Evil begets evil, whether in China, India, or United States. For Kashmir, I personally wish for "joint administration" and restoration of Pandits to their former homes.

That's all I am fit to say about this topic and not one thing more.
 
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One of the few threads that hasn't gone awry so far.

In 62, the Chinese over ran parts of Arunachal which they now claim . Then then withdrew, now they claim the same parts again !

Either they did wrong then by withdrawing or they are wrong now.
 
One of the few threads that hasn't gone awry so far.

In 62, the Chinese over ran parts of Arunachal which they now claim . Then then withdrew, now they claim the same parts again !

Either they did wrong then by withdrawing or they are wrong now.

I just read over the section in Calvin's report that goes over Zhou's initial proposal.
"Chou (Zhou Enlai) proposed discussions leading to a mutually agreed survey, and that both sides should maintain their present positions--"maintain the status quo."
This was what China wanted from the outset and it is what China still wants.

Also there is a difference between disputed region and claim. Dispute region merely means that the boundaries have not been delineated and there is no certainty as to how the line will be drawn through the "disputed region". This does not mean China wants all of the territory within the dispute region. Again what China wants is stabilization and formalization of the status quo matching the situation as it is on the ground.

Try not to believe the worse about us.
 
... Their front essentially collapsed and they could not hold the ground they took.

...

PLA was reportedly conducting an organized, strategic retreat with no enemy dogging them, as they might have foreseen problems to withhold the front due to logistic difficulty, and from potential attacks by Indian army equipped with newly arrived Western hardware… “collapse” definitely sounds too exaggerated.

Nehru was a standard moron, as well as his democratically elected politicians. He was reluctant to annoy China personally and repeatedly, but his patriotic parliament members forced him to show his love for India through his demonstrating hostile to China. (Sadly, it is still somehow the picture in today’s India free media: without being hostile to China won’t show love for India.) He would further believe that Panchsheel would guarantee him forwarding into Chinese territory ceaselessly...

What a tragedy!
 
but his patriotic parliament members forced him to show his love for India through his demonstrating hostile to China.

...

What a tragedy!

That is a good observation ... and not without applicability even today as you say.

And we see a parallel of a slightly different sort in the PRC, too.
 
We don't have details of the conflict as both Indian and Chinese sides didn't released any data but China certainly gained land in Aksai Chin. But two points were clear,


1) India-China relationship was not like enemies before the conflict.

2) Mr. Nehru and India got rid of Gandhian 'peace loving' policies and lowest focus on defence, otherwise India could get jolts in 1965, 1971, 1984 or other wars and border skirmishes with Pakistan and China.
 
We don't have details of the conflict as both Indian and Chinese sides didn't released any data but China certainly gained land in Aksai Chin. But two points were clear,


1) India-China relationship was not like enemies before the conflict.

2) Mr. Nehru and India got rid of Gandhian 'peace loving' policies and lowest focus on defence, otherwise India could get jolts in 1965, 1971, 1984 or other wars and border skirmishes with Pakistan and China.

I really suggest you read the material that Texasjohn posted, the relationship deteriorated under Nehru long before the war broke out. IIRC in the 1950's.

Nehru continued Gandhian policy of neglecting the strength of the army right up until 1962 and it was only defeat that changed his mind not some far sighted rebuilding of the IA.
 
PLA was reportedly conducting an organized, strategic retreat with no enemy dogging them, as they might have foreseen problems to withhold the front due to logistic difficulty, and from potential attacks by Indian army equipped with newly arrived Western hardware… “collapse” definitely sounds too exaggerated.

Nehru was a standard moron, as well as his democratically elected politicians. He was reluctant to annoy China personally and repeatedly, but his patriotic parliament members forced him to show his love for India through his demonstrating hostile to China. (Sadly, it is still somehow the picture in today’s India free media: without being hostile to China won’t show love for India.) He would further believe that Panchsheel would guarantee him forwarding into Chinese territory ceaselessly...

What a tragedy!

OK. Maybe "collapse" was a little harsh. But over reach they did, and then they realized their "oops".

The organized withdrawal was a result of political and military timing. The govt. announced the ceasefire and the withdrawal had already begun, and airstrikes by the US was about a week away.

More a case of "time to get outta Dodge before it really hits the fan".
Korea was still very much in the US military mindset.

It was certainly a political defeat for China. The badwill it earned for itself on the world stage, was not worth Aksai Chin, which is all they really got.

It certainly was a much needed wake up call for India.
 
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Korea was still very much in the US military mindset.

What does that have to do with this?

The Korean war, in which the USA made a mistake and got the Chinese side directly involved, which saw them pushed all the way out of North Korea? I.e. the longest retreat of US forces in history?

If the USA did not involve China in the war, then North Korea could have been completely defeated.
 
What does that have to do with this?

The Korean war, in which the USA made a mistake and got the Chinese side directly involved, which saw them pushed all the way out of North Korea? I.e. the longest retreat of US forces in history?

If the USA did not involve China in the war, then North Korea could have been completely defeated.

I would venture to say that Texasjohn meant Korea was still very much in China's military mindset. (US a typo?)

He is saying that the PLA withdrew partly because they knew an airstrike was coming in a week and their experience with air strikes were painful to say the least.

I think we can't say for sure the reasons for the withdraw or even if they were planned it ahead of time but it was probably some combination of all the factors named above.

Also @ Texasjohn. I think you over-estimate the importance of the Indian "moral" and PR victory. China was already a pariah state that just wasn't ready to talk to anyone, we were off doing our own revolutionary thing and as for India's military awakening? That would have happened regardless of 1962 and they haven't been all that successful at it even till today(just IMO, no flame). I have serious doubts about the Indian military's institutional mindset and I am chagrined by their indigenous R&D efforts.
 
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OK. Maybe "collapse" was a little harsh. But over reach they did, and then they realized their "oops".

The organized withdrawal was a result of political and military timing. The govt. announced the ceasefire and the withdrawal had already begun, and airstrikes by the US was about a week away.

More a case of "time to get outta Dodge before it really hits the fan".
Korea was still very much in the US military mindset.

It was certainly a political defeat for China. The badwill it earned for itself on the world stage, was not worth Aksai Chin, which is all they really got.

It certainly was a much needed wake up call for India.

You are basically right on that war. China's withdrawal in 1962 was largely due to its weak logistics. China does understand that Tawang was not north China Plateau where they can wield their formidable army as easily as using chopsticks. The chinese army was outnumbered and running out of supply. They realized that an escalating war with india was not in its best interests and the victory they already had was unsustainable. Though india also had a tough time supplying its army in NE india, china's situation was way harder than it enemy. They went across Tibet as known as "the roof of world" to fight indian on feet because no veichles could possibly climb the vast tibetan mountains. It took a man a month time to carry two mortar balls from lhasa to the front. it is hard to image china could winn an full-scale war with india in south asia sub-continent at that time.

In some sense, any large scale wars can be seen as war of logistics. Stalin said USSR's victory over Hitler was decided by their sheer gas engine numbers in essence. Their stronger industry produced far more tanks and artilleries than facists did and through which they won the war.

PLA learnt a lot from Korea war, the chief commander of PLA in Korea, Peng Dehuai (if I am not mistaken) said that what chinese army could achieved in the battlefield was directly decided the logistic behind. Chinese army secured Seoul twice but was pushed back by Americans to regions near 38th parallel with great loss, because they had difficult time supplying the front under Korea's freezing climate and American's extensive Airstrike. In chinese's opinion, Ridgway was far better commander than McAurther, he welll observed the weakness of PLA - their offensivse barely sustained one week, he made UN Forces avoid direct confrontation with PLA, and fight back when chinese retreat. He successfully helped UN army walk out of the failure in North Korea and retook the initiative in the army and had PLA a tough year.

In India's case, Bejing didn't want to play fiddle too much and decided to compromise Tawang to keep the initiative they've gained. i think it was a correct decision made on reality and pragmatics. Still, China's de facto control line in east front still advanced after the war compared with pre-war line and they advanced alot to AKsai Chin in the west front.

AKsai Chin is a highland overlooking the NW india. it has signicifcant strategical importance for china, as it's easy to take defense for china and difficult for india to secure. The famous Kela-Qunlun highway connecting China and Pakistan is also running through that area. In case of war, PLA's steel current would advanced to the gate of India's heart area, New Delhi from Xinjiang in days through Aksai Chin.That is a much greater burden for india's defense than a few of mountainous regiments in the east front. As for China, they are less concerned about the safety of its wild wild west and Gobi desert adjacent to Kashmir, but for india, its northwest means alot.
 
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I am very much interested in 1962 war. Obviously i am aware of the Indian version of the story. Would like to hear the Chinese version as well. I doubt either version would have unbiased truth, but it will give me a better idea of how the mindset of either country works regarding the other. If any member has a Chinese account of 1962, please send me a link. so far i have been unable to find a reliable source.


AKsai Chin is a highland overlooking the WE india. it has signicifcant strategical importance for china, as it's easy to take defense for china and difficult for india to secure. The famous Kela-Qunlun highway connecting China and Pakistan is also running through that area. In case of war, PLA's steel current would advanced to gate of New dehli from Xinjiang in days through Aksai Chin.That is a much greater burden for india's defense than a few of mountainous regiments in the east front.

Well China will have a hard time doing that since Indian air force is mainly concentrated in NW india. They can be airborne within minutes of a threat and the advancing columns will be under threat. The highway is obviously a threat and will be in India's eyes as a priority target.
But i think this is a topic for another thread. Too much debate on this topic can derail this thread, which has gone very well so far
 
I would venture to say that Texasjohn meant Korea was still very much in China's military mindset. (US a typo?)
He is saying that the PLA withdrew partly because they knew an airstrike was coming in a week and their experience with air strikes were painful to say the least.

I think we can't say for sure the reasons for the withdraw or even if they were planned it ahead of time but it was probably some combination of all the factors named above.

Also @ Texasjohn. I think you over-estimate the importance of the Indian "moral" and PR victory. China was already a pariah state that just wasn't ready to talk to anyone, we were off doing our own revolutionary thing and as for India's military awakening? That would have happened regardless of 1962 and they haven't been all that successful at it even till today(just IMO, no flame). I have serious doubts about the Indian military's institutional mindset and I am chagrined by their indigenous R&D efforts.

Yes, I did mean China's mindset. My bad. As far as India's R&D goes, all I can say is, it's gotten somewhat better. Consider their moon probe mission. A complete success. If you can send a probe to the moon you already have mastered ICBM technology.
 

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