18 Indian Terrorists sabotaging CPEC arrested in Pakistan

[Spectre]

Cdr KY has been made public as he raised his hand after the first hour in interrogation and said I am a Navy Commander, please don't beat me like this. There are other operators also in custody who are much more hardened, and don't speak up.

This sad and vicious cycle of violence will continue, to what end? This is the most unfortunate development of a right wing government in India that is going on the covert offensive while Pakistan's hands are tied eliminating the artifacts of the Afghan conflict, which India also suffers from. However, but diverting the Pakistani attention, India itself help bring alive a monster that will hurt all of India more than it will hurt Pakistan. Self defeating strategy?

None of which takes into account the active support by Pakistani state to anti India interests and proxies. India responds righteously and proportionally. Consider the Indo-China dimension - despite having more or less same legacy issues like water and boundary disputes, there is no bloodshed or overt violence. Stand offs and flashpoints are resolved diplomatically.

This appeal for respite in light of bad taliban ops by playing the victim card is just a transparent holding action, the kinds which we have seen multiple times and as such unlikely to cut any ice - right wing govt or not.

The other point is that despite the appearance of complete supremacy of political leadership when it comes to national security and foreign policy, the reality is not so clear cut. India has it's own deep state with many actors ranging from influential businessmen, religious leaders, retired army personnel and bureaucrats who play an important role in decision making. Politicians for the most part are allowed to tweak but not wreck the national interest barring few exceptions like Gujral and Rajiv Gandhi. If one follows Indian policy closely, the appearance of complete upheaval closely hides the broader continuity.

@Joe Shearer

 

[Keith420]

Forget about Pakistan dude, tell a Punjabi Jatt Sikh that he is ethnically same as a Tamil. chances are you will be paying a visit to the dentist, now do yourself a favour and log off before you embarrass yourself any further.


That is an interesting read about Desai and his supposed revelations, I for one am somewhat skeptical, sure I believe RAW has had intelligence networks conducting clandestine operations inside Pakistan for decades yet, I get this feeling the Indians are trying to disguise their own shortcomings by declaring magnanimity, just like they claim they could have captured Lahore and Sialkot when we all know the reality of the situation and the actions of the cowardly Major Gen Prasad.Kudos Sarge

bro, at least u know somethings we called as human race ? Aryans/Dravidian/Mongolians ?
Punjabi and Tamil r difference race all together.

 

[django]

Punjabi and Tamil r difference race all together.

On that we can certainly agree, though their are some Indians on this forum who state Bengals, Tamils and Punjabis are basically the same race.

 

[The Eagle]

Look, I am sure you are aware of the term "false equivalence". They must be doing it as well - that is the most favourite way to expunge guilt.

ISI's role in fomenting trouble is well-documented.

http://www.cfr.org/pakistan/isi-terrorism-behind-accusations/p11644

As far as India's/RAW's role is concerned, if there are any concrete non-partisan references, then I am all ears.

The terms are referenced through way of propaganda though none are angel. It is always about to learn from others and R&AW isn't innocent all that even attempting to sabotage from Afghanistan handling. Kulbhushan chapter is a bit of the story line that leads deep in history and for the further reference, see what Doval says that he is still active to train such proxies in Kenya. It is the matter of nation first so one party cannot be discounted with such. This side in past, paid less attention for media propaganda but now it is all about the what the adversary brought on.

 

[Lurch Adams]

The terms are referenced through way of propaganda though none are angel. It is always about to learn from others and R&AW isn't innocent all that even attempting to sabotage from Afghanistan handling. Kulbhushan chapter is a bit of the story line that leads deep in history and for the further reference, see what Doval says that he is still active to train such proxies in Kenya. It is the matter of nation first so one party cannot be discounted with such. This side in past, paid less attention for media propaganda but now it is all about the what the adversary brought on.

Ok let us for a moment assume that what you say about R&AW is correct. But, you yourself acknowledged that these efforts are counter-productive/useless in the long term. If so, then which country would be better served by learning that lesson - the one which denies using covert ops and asymmetric warfare as a central tenet or one that takes pride in it.

I am assuming that you will not deny that Pakistan's brazenness in using proxies became subdued only after 9/11, when global consensus started changing. Even then, things hardly changed. I am sure you have watched the shocking interview given by Asad Durrani at the Oxford Union sometime back. Now it is one thing to say that gullible people will not understand how realpolitik works, but there are some people with a minimum sense of propriety.

Also, there is the small matter of how Indian bureaucracy functions. I concede that since the thread was about so-called Indian spies, discussing ISI is not really needed. I have some experience of how things work in Indian government. I can share my experience with you if you are interested. That will be a more fruitful discussion, as you will realize how incapable R&AW really is.

 

[The Eagle]

Ok let us for a moment assume that what you say about R&AW is correct. But, you yourself acknowledged that these efforts are counter-productive/useless in the long term. If so, then which country would be better served by learning that lesson - the one which denies using covert ops and asymmetric warfare as a central tenet or one that takes pride in it.

I am assuming that you will not deny that Pakistan's brazenness in using proxies became subdued only after 9/11, when global consensus started changing. Even then, things hardly changed. I am sure you have watched the shocking interview given by Asad Durrani at the Oxford Union sometime back. Now it is one thing to say that gullible people will not understand how realpolitik works, but there are some people with a minimum sense of propriety.

Also, there is the small matter of how Indian bureaucracy functions. I concede that since the thread was about so-called Indian spies, discussing ISI is not really needed. I have some experience of how things work in Indian government. I can share my experience with you if you are interested. That will be a more fruitful discussion, as you will realize how incapable R&AW really is.

If it is about using the proxies then you must be aware about Mukti Bahni and her utilization so this is how things are taught by doing so like you imply an idea and execute and on the very same time the other party learns a lot. If these are also like so-called Kulbhushan (initially claimed by India as so-called) then your authorities knows what do so no worries.

R&AW is incapable, indeed a testimony to be told at lower level so to understand it, we need to see things from learning point of view than pure nationalism in respect of just capabilities of one. But with a mindset of blaming the ISI, it is hard to understand what R&AW has been doing in Pakistan.

The ring of Indian spies, busted in Pakistan is the proof and except the common people, professional knows how such assets costs them when neutralized that the strategies, investments and all goes in drain. There is going to be more in near future just because R&AW thought it to be the same as past but this time, especially since Kulbhushan, things are changed.

You may understand that pure spying on enemy is different thing that relates to be kept on self updated about the development of enemy then being involved in direct terrorism. The game is played on the basis that "you do this I will do that".

ISI is also not that competent what the people in India have been told with. Trust me, there is no such interest in knowing about what the lower level has been told with incapabilities of R&AW but on other hand, what NaMO, Doval, Surbajeet etc tells, is totally different and almost close to real thing that you may consider against what you have been told at such level. Let us be done with a gateway through Afghanistan, things will unfold to many to understand and see the real picture.

 

[Lurch Adams]

If it is about using the proxies then you must be aware about Mukti Bahni and her utilization so this is how things are taught by doing so like you imply an idea and execute and on the very same time the other party learns a lot. If these are also like so-called Kulbhushan (initially claimed by India as so-called) then your authorities knows what do so no worries.

R&AW is incapable, indeed a testimony to be told at lower level so to understand it, we need to see things from learning point of view than pure nationalism in respect of just capabilities of one. But with a mindset of blaming the ISI, it is hard to understand what R&AW has been doing in Pakistan.

The ring of Indian spies, busted in Pakistan is the proof and except the common people, professional knows how such assets costs them when neutralized that the strategies, investments and all goes in drain. There is going to be more in near future just because R&AW thought it to be the same as past but this time, especially since Kulbhushan, things are changed.

You may understand that pure spying on enemy is different thing that relates to be kept on self updated about the development of enemy then being involved in direct terrorism. The game is played on the basis that "you do this I will do that".

ISI is also not that competent what the people in India have been told with. Trust me, there is no such interest in knowing about what the lower level has been told with incapabilities of R&AW but on other hand, what NaMO, Doval, Surbajeet etc tells, is totally different and almost close to real thing that you may consider against what you have been told at such level. Let us be done with a gateway through Afghanistan, things will unfold to many to understand and see the real picture.

Look, the case of Mukti Bahini was not very different than that of the Afghan Mujahideen during Afghan War. When millions of refugees come into your country escaping brutality, the least one can do is help in whichever way we can.

But therein arose the difference. Mukti Bahini was a one-time enterprise for us. The only other misadventure was the lame and half-baked support to LTTE under Indira Gandhi which was very quickly reverted. But the Afghan War propelled the ISI into a different league - the assets, autonomy of action and ability to raise finances through weapons, currency counterfeiting and narcotics never really went away. Pakistan's experiment merely began with the Afghan War, where it should have stopped.

You have to understand the mindset of the Civilian leadership in India. They use the same system of total control over intelligence as they use over the military - the Indian political class is extremely suspicious of both. Our defence ministers have traditionally been so incompetent that the Head of R&AW reports to the Cabinet Secretary - who himself has no experience in these things.

The purpose is to keep them on a tight leash of bureaucratic oversight. Our civilian leadership has never really cared about developing intelligence agencies - just as defence procurement is held hostage to the whims of incompetent Defence Ministers who know nothing and rarely listen to the armed forces. For that matter, Brajesh Mishra as NSA was the first time we got some coherence into our security apparatus. And while Pakistanis might treat Doval as the devil incarnate, he is just a guy with a bucket trying to empty the ocean of incompetence that is our intelligence and security system.

 

[The Eagle]

Look, the case of Mukti Bahini was not very different than that of the Afghan Mujahideen during Afghan War. When millions of refugees come into your country escaping brutality, the least one can do is help in whichever way we can.

But therein arose the difference. Mukti Bahini was a one-time enterprise for us. The only other misadventure was the lame and half-baked support to LTTE under Indira Gandhi which was very quickly reverted. But the Afghan War propelled the ISI into a different league - the assets, autonomy of action and ability to raise finances through weapons, currency counterfeiting and narcotics never really went away. Pakistan's experiment merely began with the Afghan War, where it should have stopped.

You have to understand the mindset of the Civilian leadership in India. They use the same system of total control over intelligence as they use over the military - the Indian political class is extremely suspicious of both. Our defence ministers have traditionally been so incompetent that the Head of R&AW reports to the Cabinet Secretary - who himself has no experience in these things.

The purpose is to keep them on a tight leash of bureaucratic oversight. Our civilian leadership has never really cared about developing intelligence agencies - just as defence procurement is held hostage to the whims of incompetent Defence Ministers who know nothing and rarely listen to the armed forces. For that matter, Brajesh Mishra as NSA was the first time we got some coherence into our security apparatus. And while Pakistanis might treat Doval as the devil incarnate, he is just a guy with a bucket trying to empty the ocean of incompetence that is our intelligence and security system.

The capabilities you mentioned, speaks volume about the Mindset the R&AW taught to people. There is no one time enterprise and it is evident that people in India are way far than the reality that indeed none knows much about on either side. But, they way you mentioned the innocence & strictness towards R&AW, are public book chapters and seems like working as Green Peace organization that wants to plant trees and flowers in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

 

[Nicky G]

it's off topic but i still find it amazing how india is a country where radical extremists are the ones actually in charge - hiding behind the garb of "nationalism" (if they ever knew what such a thing really is) killed the founding father of their nation and a large enough number of people still worship them like idols

Grow past silly Congress propaganda. There is no 'father of nation' in India.

Stick to the topic folks.

Indian covert action and even Indian terrorism means that they are aware of the potential of CPEC.

18 Indian terrorists is a huge deal... number wise that's as big group as the 9/11 al Qaeeda group that attacked America.

Pak army was right to give CPEC the top priority in protecting it.

Even Indian members here on are active in cyber attacks (via misinformation). The indian members here are not part of RAW or any organized group... they are just in rage about CPEC and the opportunity it presents to Pakistan.. Their wet dreams of a "failed pakistan" are becoming even more laughable... that's actually worse
.. It's worse that the anti CPEC Indians on this forum aren't part of RAW or some organized group... because it just shows the deep rooted hatred and venom they as a race hold for us ... it's in their blood. You expect peace from these people? Not in a million years.

CPEC is a reality now learn to live with it.... Or our armed forces will continue to turn you into cocroaches...

Projection. The response of Pak members on Indian casualties reveals the actual hatred.

If you claim an Indian hand, provide proof.

Even if that's the case, Pak is an enemy state. Indian agencies would not be doing their jobs if they weren't working to undermine an enemy nation. CPEC is nothing special in that regard.

 

[Lurch Adams]

But, they way you mentioned the innocence & strictness towards R&AW, are public book chapters and seems like working as Green Peace organization that wants to plant trees and flowers in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Hahaha...definitely not. I am sure that if given half a chance R&AW would love to wreak havoc in Pakistan, and most Indians would cheer it as payback for Khalistan/Kashmir/North East/Mumbai/Pathankot/Uri etc. But the problem is, R&AW is not insulated from the bureaucratic red tape which envelops South Asia.

I know what you are thinking - how will a normal civilian know about the inner workings of an intelligence agency? I admit that I do not know specifics about R&AW, but I have experience of dealing with Ministers and Bureaucrats - A LOT of them. The culture of a tunnel-vision towards protecting their personal fiefdom at the cost of everything is endemic. They don't care about national interest and such airy-fairy things. Most times, inputs from technocrats and field officers are ignored just to show them who is boss. As examples, read about V.K. Krishna Menon and his deliberate sabotage of our armed forces. Also, study our defence procurement policy - which is purely aimed at kickbacks and keeping the armed forces weak through ad-hoc purchases and futile reliance on DRDO which makes no sense.

It is not that there are no exceptions to this rule in India, for example ISRO somehow managed to escape the culture of mediocrity and moribund existence-for-the-sake-of-itself. But it is an exception - just as ISI is.

Because I think you have a valid point, so I will tell you how I gathered my perceptions about the inner workings of our government. I work in IT. NIC is the nodal agency which implements all IT systems related with the government. So I have been involved in designing IT systems for many ministries and departments, including defence. In the course of my work, I have met ministers, IAS officers, etc. The general reaction is total indifference - they don't give a damn about efficiency, reducing errors, redundancy, etc. If they at all show interest, it is in those aspects of the system which will help in avoiding accountability for delays and mistakes. That's all.

Now the thing is, R&AW has to work within this framework. No matter what it wants, the Mantris and Babus have their own agenda. The deep state in India is of scumbags who care about nothing but money and power. There is no ideology involved. Creating trouble in Pakistan in the hope of long-term gains is not something that profits anyone personally. So it is of no priority.

 

[Clutch]

Grow past silly Congress propaganda. There is no 'father of nation' in India.



Projection. The response of Pak members on Indian casualties reveals the actual hatred.

If you claim an Indian hand, provide proof.

Even if that's the case, Pak is an enemy state. Indian agencies would not be doing their jobs if they weren't working to undermine an enemy nation. CPEC is nothing special in that regard.

Actually we believe you are actually doing projection... you are the terrorists accusing us falsky of being that instead.

Our security agencies wouldn't be doing their job if they weren't keeping tabs on the enemy state south of us.

Moo par ram ram bakhaal may chouree

 

[war&peace]

These RAW monkeys should be beheaded publicly.

 

[Chhatrapati]

Actually we believe you are actually doing projection... you are the terrorists accusing us falsky of being that instead.

Our security agencies wouldn't be doing their job if they weren't keeping tabs on the enemy state south of us.

Moo par ram ram bakhaal may chouree

If you say R&AW wants to sabotage CPEC. Tell me some good reason to do that?
Nobody in India has a problem with "developed" Pakistan
Don't quote media reports as proof. Media goes gaga without any reasons. Those are speculations.

 

[Clutch]

If you say R&AW wants to sabotage CPEC. Tell me some good reason to do that?
Nobody in India has a problem with "developed" Pakistan
Don't quote media reports as proof. Media goes gaga without any reasons. Those are speculations.

Posts on this forum by Indians should answer that for you... or just look at Modi's wet Dhoti each time he hears CPEC...

 

[Chhatrapati]

Posts on this forum by Indians should answer that for you... or just look at Modi's wet Dhoti each time he hears CPEC...

People who can't speak straight and only knows to troll are the real disadvantage of this forum.
Indians, nonetheless Modi gives a damn about CPEC, our only concern is it passes through Azad Kashmir. (We did't raise CPEC concern until this Kashmir drama 2016)