16th December 1971: From East Pakistan to Bangladesh

[chisty_chowdhury]

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto Interview

 

[Solomon2]

You skipped over the part about Cheney, which is probably why you didn't get the connection. If I were to follow your logic, then I would arrive at the conclusion below:

I think you are confused, TL. To justify the logical relationship you have to argue cause-and-effect (mere association or coincidence is not the same thing) and to invoke inductive logic to draw a general conclusion you really need to produce more than one example. That's why America's Founding Fathers provided a long list.

 

[Awesome]

And again I must rise to the defence of Gen. Kiyani - I believe he was adamantly against deploying the military against the Long March protesters, as Zardari allegedly wished to do in order to control them.

I was hinting towards the police

 

[Solomon2]

With that I mean the core issue of injustice. Fundamentally the Bangladeshis were open to Indian incitement because of the injustices levied upon them. Like in any power struggle these are oft exaggerated. But there is no point in excusing yourself with that.
Then the issue of greed of our leadership. Fill their coffers while the rest of the country goes down the drain.
The army may not be doing the excesses in Pakistan today, but the uniformed authorities are still doing the baton charge upon lawyers and protesters.

And if Baluchistan or the Pushtuns voice the same plea, are you willing to let them go too, or would you send in the Army, or actually listen and change?

 

[Awesome]

And if Baluchistan or the Pushtuns voice the same plea, are you willing to let them go too, or would you send in the Army, or actually listen and change?

Ask me what you really want to ask...

 

[Solomon2]

Ask me what you really want to ask...

That is what I mean to ask. I think that even if the governing elite of Pakistan acknowledge that injustice is a problem, they don't feel any desire to alleviate it.

 

[TechLahore]

I think you are confused, TL. To justify the logical relationship you have to argue cause-and-effect (mere association or coincidence is not the same thing) and to invoke inductive logic to draw a general conclusion you really need to produce more than one example. That's why America's Founding Fathers provided a long list.

Quite to the contrary, Solomon2, I think you are peddling goods no one's buying. And there is a long list alright. Does one start with Vietnam? Iraq? Afghanistan? Hawaii? Latin America? And does one name all the people involved? Does one incorporate the delusions of "Manifest Destiny"? Does one identify repeated instances of the US employing inhumane measures from Agent Orange, to CIA torture and on and on? Does one cite instances of the nexus between US corporations and the US military and how the vested interest that results has been "protected"? Does one talk of the US invasion of Guatemala to protect the interests of United Fruit Company? The invasions of Grenada and Panama? The mining of Nicaraguan harbours and the resulting judgement against the US in the World Court? A decision the US continues to flout. The use of illegal gun running/drug money to fund the Contras?

But what would the point of it all be? I understand you live with your delusions and I also understand from interacting with you that your intentions are merely to defame Pakistan and hurl abuse in various ways against muslims and Pakistanis. So please, by all means, continue. But don't for a second think that your intent is unclear.

Good day.

 

[Awesome]

That is what I mean to ask. I think that even if the governing elite of Pakistan acknowledge that injustice is a problem, they don't feel any desire to alleviate it.

There you go, no argument there. There are good people out there, like Imran Khan, however they don't get the votes.

 

[TechLahore]

Ask me what you really want to ask...

Tsk tsk, Asim. Don't you know we "Pakistanis" came to Pakistan on boats from the other side of the world, distributed smallpox blankets to the locals (let's call them Baluchis), killed tens of millions of them with whatever resources were available to us, then took all their land and locked them up in places we call "reservations". But so what? They were godless and we were sent by God to rule this part of the world at whatever cost... it was a destiny that was anything if not manifest.

But it didn't stop there. Even after wiping these locals off the face of the earth and trapping them in reservations, we make sure that they continue to be do deprived that even today their per-capita income is a fraction of the rest of our country. If you visit these "reservations", you will see extremely high levels of drug and alcohol abuse, you will see gambling eating away at these communities. But Asim, look at us. We have built the world's strongest and most well armed country by commandeering the land and resources that these "locals" possessed.

How can you possibly wonder about the question being asked? It is a very genuine and well intentioned query about the rights of Baluchis.

 

[Solomon2]

Quite to the contrary, Solomon2, I think you are peddling goods no one's buying. And there is a long list alright. Does one start with Vietnam? Iraq? Afghanistan? -

You have moved very far from the subject of the topic thread, TL. Do you think the hoi polloi in Pakistan will continue to buy your goods forever?

I also understand from interacting with you that your intentions are merely to defame Pakistan and hurl abuse in various ways against muslims and Pakistanis.

If I was being insulted or attacked verbally I like to think that I would not respond by hiding behind my fellow Jews or Americans, rather that I would confront my opponent directly.

One approach is courageous, the other cowardly. Which approach do you think Pakistan's leaders took in 1971? How many looked at themselves rather than blame the Mukti Bahini on a Pakistan-hating but all-controlling India?

 

[TechLahore]

You have moved very far from the subject of the topic thread, TL. Do you think the hoi polloi in Pakistan will continue to buy your goods forever?

I don't know. Come find out. You love playing the Pakistan expert, high time you visited us

One approach is courageous, the other cowardly. Which approach do you think Pakistan's leaders took in 1971? How many looked at themselves rather than blame the Mukti Bahini on a Pakistan-hating but all-controlling India?

Pretty much every Pakistani understands that we - the people and government - made mistakes which contributed to 1971. And pretty much every Pakistani also knows that our mistakes were exploited by India and that the Mukti Bahini was indeed funded and supported by India. I think the Indians say this too. No surprises for anyone involved.

So no, India is not all-controlling, it simply did in 1971 what an enemy would do. Pakistan made mistakes. We have never said otherwise. We are trying as best as we can to make up for them by being helpful to Bangladesh whenever and wherever possible. The Bangladesh-Pakistan relationship that exists today (especially during the Khaleda gov.) is a testament to this fact. The India-Pakistan separation happened in 1947 and it very much remains a living dispute. 1971 is more recent, but BD-Pak ties are FAR better than Indo-Pak ties. That's saying something.

 

[fallstuff]

The following youtube video is a Bhuuto speach. I reckon the clip is incomplete. I see a clear disconnect from the people. The clip shows the unbecoming of a statesman.

One could draw a conclusion that his speech epitomizes the condescending view about the East Pakistanis held by the ruling class in West Pakistan. Operation Searchlight was the manifestation.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

^^ The first part of the speech takes a different line from the latter part in the clip - I'd say both he and the crowd got caught up in the emotion of the events that were still very recent and painful.

 

[TechLahore]

@fallstuff, You have COMPLETELY missed the point. Bhutto was convincing Pakistanis who were angry about 1971 to befriend Bangladesh. He used the word you probably latched on to as something those who oppose this viewpoint would say. And then he deconstructed the opposing argument.

This speech actually asks Pakistanis to embrace Bangladesh as a brother Islamic nation and as a friend.

 

[Solomon2]

There are good people out there, like Imran Khan, however they don't get the votes.

It's not that easy. One can't rely on blind loyalty to a politician. Consider the accomplished and "popular" Mr. Bhutto, vowing to take care of the poor, but delivering needless wars that killed hundreds of thousands of people instead.

Even politicians who have good intentions need to pursue specific policies. These should be presented in as much detail as possible and presented to the public before election - and the public poked into taking an active interest in them, if necessary. And there has to be a way, short of a military coup, of removing the executive from power if he abuses it.