14 dead in shooting at San Bernardino, Calif., center for disabled; 3 suspects on loose

[Water Car Engineer]

This is sad, I am not a Muslim, but I am a immigrant - just like these people. Harming the nation that adopted you, fed you is the most shameful thing you can possibly do.

Every Pakistani and Indian here that immigranted, or are kids of immigrants know what I am talking about.

You can now expect more Mosques being taped, or being sent moles. More Muslim organizations here tapped, etc. This is already happening, but it's going to rise.

 

[VCheng]

First of all RIP to fallen....

I would like to see bit more info before i comment..
Its very unusual for an organised terror plot...
But that does not mean its not....
Husband and wife with 6 month old daughter.... i mean what the £uck...
With usual terror isis taliban plots there are usually multiple teams multiple shooters

May be we should check whether he was circumcised or not and whether she had any skull tattoos first?

 

[Water Car Engineer]

This particular individual was born and bred in the US - a stop to 'importing Muslims' will not have stopped him and will not stop any others like him. They need to start supporting progressive Muslim scholars and find governments and organizations in the Muslim world that are willing to work with them to fund research and promotion into progressive interpretations of Islam.

They don't need support nothing, supporting progressive scholars is Muslims jobs, not the west. Europeans did it in the Renaissance, now they, for the most part aren't taking everything word, by word.

Until that happens, yes, immigration from these countries need to be limited.

 

[VCheng]

This particular individual was born and bred in the US - a stop to 'importing Muslims' will not have stopped him and will not stop any others like him. They need to start supporting progressive Muslim scholars and find governments and organizations in the Muslim world that are willing to work with them to fund research and promotion into progressive interpretations of Islam.

As if the Closet Mullah (and Mulli) Brigade will let that work. Don't believe me? Try this approach on PDF and see what happens.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

They don't need support nothing, supporting progressive scholars is Muslims jobs, not the west. Europeans did it in the Renaissance, now they, for the most part aren't taking everything word, by word.

Muslims in the West are 'Westerners'' and in many cases citizens of 'the West'. As long as funding for such research is constitutional, I don't see issues.

Until that happens, yes, immigration from these countries need to be limited.

Which will, as pointed out in the previous post, achieve nothing in preventing such attacks by individuals born and bred in the US.

As if the Closet Mullah (and Mulli) Brigade will let that work. Don't believe me? Try this approach on PDF and see what happens.

I've got my detractors, but plenty of supporters as well, and certainly enough understanding from the forum administration that I can voice such views without being censured.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Morocco, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia

All Arab. All tied into the Palestine cause. This is to be expected. These are one people divide by colonial drawn straight lines on the map.

 

[Kaniska]

Pakistani's in the US tend to be educated and successful unlike some of the other diaspora (UK) Most of the Pakistanis that I have encountered in the US aren't even that religious or they tend to be moderate. But it is a worrying trend that people being born and raised in places like the US, Europe, Australia, etc are becoming more extremist than people being raised in places like Pakistan.

I think you are correct to some extent...One of the feature which i even feel suprised is that in case of Indian and BD South Asian, the affluent people are more or less not religious kind...which is completely different for Pakistan origin people...I have seen that higher middle class Pakistan origin people are more religious (Which is a good thing...) than even average cab driver...So whenever some one is religious, the way our media is just presents a narrative, it does not take much time for some lunatic people...to just change his mind to be a bad guy.....By looking at the picture, in no aspect, any one can even imagine that the familly could do like this...And i can see the immdiate impact in my office itself....Where gossiping has started exactly about how do you understand the mind of South Asian people...which is not an healthy sign...

 

[VCheng]

I've got my detractors, but plenty of supporters as well, and certainly enough understanding from the forum administration that I can voice such views without being censured.

As an ex-Admin, yes. It will take a lot more effort than what you can provide, but please feel free to try. Sooner or later, you will run into the unspoken wall that has been nurtured carefully to provide the eye-dee-ah-lo-jee of Pakistan. The is the real problem that nobody wants resolved.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

I've been making this argument more forcefully since the Paris attacks, that the current interpretations of Islam and the attitudes promoted by Islamic scholars need to be reformed. Specifically from a Pakistani perspective, the intolerance and essentially outright justification for violence and terrorism in the name of 'blasphemy against the Prophet' and 'Ahmadi's worshiping a false prophet' needs to end outright. These attitudes and beliefs essentially create 'exceptions' within which murder and terrorism is acceptable, and in my view once an individual accepts this and believes such an 'exception' to be ideologically justified, it's easier to extend that ideological justification and motivation to more and more acts of violence that may or may not have any link to the original justification.

The Muslim world (Islamic scholars in particular) need to address the problems inherent in the Hadith. There are some rather depraved hadith in the books, and merely calling them 'un-authentic' or 'less authentic' is no longer acceptable. The Hadith need to be brought in line with the Quran and those hadith that justify violence, murder and prejudice stricken from the books.

A follow-up action to the above needs to be support from progressive Muslim organizations (government grants for research might be another way of funneling support) for progressive Islamic scholars that have been ostracized and shunned by the wider Muslim community for arguing against prevailing interpretations of the Quran.

You qadiyanies are as bad as the Indians. Using this sad tragedy for your own political ends. Shame on you! There is no relevance between the Murders in Amrka and blasphemy laws. The laws stays and move on.

 

[Trisonics]

This particular individual was born and bred in the US - a stop to 'importing Muslims' will not have stopped him and will not stop any others like him. They need to start supporting progressive Muslim scholars and find governments and organizations in the Muslim world that are willing to work with them to fund research and promotion into progressive interpretations of Islam.

Easier said than done. A progressive Muslim also fears for his life and cares for his family and is not motivated enough like the radical ones to wish death. Whatever entities that do promote and research progressive interpretations of Islam will be the biggest target of the radicalized ones.

I think Muslims need to be more nationalistic. Nation Vs Religion could lead to a more progressive view. It's easier to sell and believe in patriotism than try and change Islamic interpretation in use today.

At the end of the day, any change can only lie in the will of a Muslim.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Muslims in the West are 'Westerners'' and in many cases citizens of 'the West'. As long as funding for such research is constitutional, I don't see issues.

Which will, as pointed out in the previous post, achieve nothing in preventing such attacks by individuals born and bred in the US.


I've got my detractors, but plenty of supporters as well, and certainly enough understanding from the forum administration that I can voice such views without being censured.

I don't what tax payers money going to fix some ideology.

These guys keep stabbing their adopted father for this ideology, no amount of money is going change their mind.

Limiting migration is fine by me. Not enough people to deal with, thanks.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You can know expect more Mosques being taped, or being sent moles. More Muslim organizations here tapped, etc. This is already happening, but it's going to rise.

Personally, I don't see an issue with that, given that I support the same actions being taken in Pakistan. However, given the different demographic dynamics in the US, coordinating such monitoring with community leadership would be the best way to go about it and build relationships and trust over the long term that allow for far better intelligence gathering than a unilateral effort that isolates the community and limits useful intelligence because elements bent on committing illegal acts can identify and avoid potential locations under surveillance.

 

[VCheng]

Easier said than done. A progressive Muslim also fears for his life and cares for his family and is not motivated enough like the radical ones to wish death. Whatever entities that do promote and research progressive interpretations of Islam will be the biggest target of the radicalized ones.

I think Muslims need to be more nationalistic. Nation Vs Religion could lead to a more progressive view. It's easier to sell and believe in patriotism than try and change Islamic interpretation in use today.

At the end of the day, any change can only lie in the will of a Muslim.

But what happens when a nation has spent three-quarters of a century cloaking itself with religion? Remove that cloak and nothing is left.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As an ex-Admin, yes. It will take a lot more effort than what you can provide, but please feel free to try. Sooner or later, you will run into the unspoken wall that has been nurtured carefully to provide the eye-dee-ah-lo-jee of Pakistan. The is the real problem that nobody wants resolved.

When have I not spoken out against Blasphemy laws and anti-Ahmadi laws?

The problem is that your approach is a 'blanket' one against Pakistan's 'Islamic Republic' nature, whereas mine is directed specifically at adopting reformist interpretations of Islam. The problem here is not one restricted to Pakistan or the Objectives Resolution, it's a problem prevalent across many parts of the Muslim world where bigotry, violence and terrorism has been justified and the population indoctrinated with these beliefs under the garb of 'blasphemy'.

Whether Pakistan remains a theocratic State or not is irrelevant now - the issue is whether its constitution and laws will be changed to eliminate institutionalized bigotry and intolerance and whether the State will actively act to reform religious institutions and shut down those beyond hope of reform.

 

[VCheng]

When have I not spoken out against Blasphemy laws and anti-Ahmadi laws?

The problem is that your approach is a 'blanket' one against Pakistan's 'Islamic Republic' nature, whereas mine is directed specifically at adopting reformist interpretations of Islam. The problem here is not one restricted to Pakistan or the Objectives Resolution, it's a problem prevalent across many parts of the Muslim world where bigotry, violence and terrorism has been justified and the population indoctrinated with these beliefs under the garb of 'blasphemy'.

Whether Pakistan remains a theocratic State or not is irrelevant now - the issue is whether its constitution and laws will be changed to eliminate institutionalized bigotry and intolerance and whether the State will actively act to reform religious institutions and shut down those beyond hope of reform.

Rearranging the deck chairs will never save Titanic, Sir. Frankly, I do not care about the rest of the Muslim countries. They will get what is coming for them, and it has already started. Pakistan still may have a chance, although slim, to clean up its own house before it gets caught up in the coming maelstrom.