10 most Westoxified countries in Asia?

[Indus Pakistan]

Okay which are [in order] the ten most westoxified countries in Asia. Westoxified has roots in workld by Iranian writer Jalal Ahmed.

"Persian gharbzadegi. Term coined by the Iranian secular intellectual Jalal al-e Ahmad to describe the fascination with and dependence upon the West to the detriment of traditional, historical, and cultural ties to Islam and Islamic world. Defined as an indiscriminate borrowing from and imitation of the West, joining the twin dangers of cultural imperialism and political domination."

Although this term was coined with referance to Islamic culture but we can use "native culture" as the benchmark. The degree of movement toward Western thought to the detriment of "native roots" can be measure of westoxification. This is my list of the most westoxified countries in Asia.


1. China
2. South Korea
3. Japan
4. Singapore
5 Philipines
6. Kazakstan
7. Azerbaijhan
8. Turkey
9. Lebonan
10.Uzbekistan

Lets have your list and critical thought/reasons. Don't forget this relates to the country as a whole or major determinant share of the population that can leverage the direction the country takes. The aggregate effect of this can be felt on the street level in the prevailing culture.

 

[Baybars Han]

Okay which are [in order] the ten most westoxified countries in Asia. Westoxified has roots in workld by Iranian writer Jalal Ahmed.

"Persian gharbzadegi. Term coined by the Iranian secular intellectual Jalal al-e Ahmad to describe the fascination with and dependence upon the West to the detriment of traditional, historical, and cultural ties to Islam and Islamic world. Defined as an indiscriminate borrowing from and imitation of the West, joining the twin dangers of cultural imperialism and political domination."

Although this term was coined with referance to Islamic culture but we can use "native culture" as the benchmark. The degree of movement toward Western thought to the detriment of "native roots" can be measure of westoxification. This is my list of the most westoxified countries in Asia.


1. China
2. South Korea
3. Japan
4. Singapore
5 Philipines
6. Kazakstan
7. Azerbaijhan
8. Turkey
9. Lebonan
10.Uzbekistan

Lets have your list and critical thought/reasons. Don't forget this relates to the country as a whole or major determinant share of the population that can leverage the direction the country takes. The aggregate effect of this can be felt on the street level in the prevailing culture.

I don't think we are "westoxified" as you say it.

We keep many old central asian traditions
Our cuisine and culture is very different and still very much native
Our language is the same and we try to replace foreign words with Turkish equiavalent, especially new Tech terms
Our alphabet is latin- but the only alternative I would say would be correct is GokTurk alphabet, but latin suits the language better than arabic script.
The only clear effect today is clothing, but that is pretty much the same everywhere and changed in the whole world.

"describe the fascination with and dependence upon the West to the detriment of traditional, historical, and cultural ties to Islam and Islamic world"-

Our identity is not only formed by our religion, we still have many traditions from our pre-islamic roots and our central asian ancestors and today our culture is a mix of all the lands we was in and people we interacted with to bring our own unique culture. Any person who visits a Turkish home can see this.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

We keep many old central asian traditions
Our cuisine and culture is very different and still very much native

That is not proof of non westoxification. That is merely Turkishness just like French, Germans, British retain unique aspects despite being "Western". Being "Western" does not imply you are exactly the same. To make a sporting analogy footbal supporters all share love of the game but express in form of so many clubs like Manchester United or Galalatay Istanbul. They all have their own chants, followers, traditions, rivalries but they all share broad contours in loving the game. They all tango to the same beat.

Going back to specifics. Spanish have their own unique cuisine, language, art, music etc etc but we know that it is strand of wider canvas called the West. Same can be said of Swedes who have their own unique culture etc. The point being is they are all sub-sets of the West. Even the Germans in WW2 when they were fighting the Allies remained a Western nation. A Spanish, a German or a Greek are differant but all stand on the same platform - West.

Turkey is rather unique in this by being Muslim therefore is not part of the inner circle but still is on the outer orbit of the West. Japanese/South Korea and Singapore are more Western then Turkey because there is nothing at all separating them from the West. However their distance and racial divergency also prevents them being part of the inner circleand are relegated to where Turkey is - on the orbit of the West.

Turkey by now would have been accepted in the inner circle even being Muslim. The problem has been the term "Muslim" is now seen as dirty in the West primarily because they associate that term with Third World. If Turkey was exposition of only Muslim country [along with Kosova/Bosnia] by now Turkey would in the inner circle. However Muslim is defined by the majority who live in Asia and Africa. Therefore "Muslim" hangs like a weight around Turkish necks that forces them to stand outside the fence despite the Greeks or Cypriots being in.

I know this because Turkish Islam does nor even remotely look like Pakistani Islam let alone Saudi Islam. Turkish Islam is more self confident and stands equal to Cathlicsism in Europe and evinces Ottoman might whereas Saudi or Pak Islam carries the seeds of defeat. It is ridden with inferiority complex and not able to handle the modern world.

 

[Baybars Han]

That is not proof of non westoxification. That is merely Turkishness just like French, Germans, British retain unique aspects despite being "Western". Being "Western" does not imply you are exactly the same. To make a sporting analogy footbal supporters all share love of the game but express in form of so many clubs like Manchester United or Galalatay Istanbul. They all have their own chants, followers, traditions, rivalries but they all share broad contours in loving the game. They all tango to the same beat.

Going back to specifics. Spanish have their own unique cuisine, language, art, music etc etc but we know that it is strand of wider canvas called the West. Same can be said of Swedes who have their own unique culture etc. The point being is they are all sub-sets of the West. Even the Germans in WW2 when they were fighting the Allies remained a Western nation. A Spanish, a German or a Greek are differant but all stand on the same platform - West.

Turkey is rather unique in this by being Muslim therefore is not part of the inner circle but still is on the outer orbit of the West. Japanese/South Korea and Singapore are more Western then Turkey because there is nothing at all separating them from the West. However their distance and racial divergency also prevents them being part of the inner circleand are relegated to where Turkey is - on the orbit of the West.

Turkey by now would have been accepted in the inner circle even being Muslim. The problem has been the term "Muslim" is now seen as dirty in the West primarily because they associate that term with Third World. If Turkey was exposition of only Muslim country [along with Kosova/Bosnia] by now Turkey would in the inner circle. However Muslim is defined by the majority who live in Asia and Africa. Therefore "Muslim" hangs like a weight around Turkish necks that forces them to stand outside the fence despite the Greeks or Cypriots being in.

I know this because Turkish Islam does nor even remotely look like Pakistani Islam let alone Saudi Islam. Turkish Islam is more self confident and stands equal to Cathlicsism in Europe and evinces Ottoman might whereas Saudi or Pak Islam carries the seeds of defeat. It is ridden with inferiority complex and not able to handle the modern world.

I agree with most of what you said but we are what we are and won't change and should not change to be something else, we all know the main reason we have not become part of EU is because of 2 reasons 1. Historical greivance and 2. Religion the rest is all excuses.

Regarding Islam. Today its being shown as evil etc is all a part of a big plan. Im a person that hates these people who love theories, masons, illimunati etc but if you can't see this process was started as part of a large plan I can say that person must be stupid.

Before it was marxism and communism and today its Islam. They have to create an enemy and weaken it in order to be successful in their agendas. Today its islam tomorow it could be another religion or political ideology. Not to say some Muslims didnt put butter on their bread with their actions, but there is always a reaction to an action. I find it hard to explain but i'm sure you can understand what I mean.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Before it was marxism and communism

Very well said. This is what I grew under. The Commies were bad then.

1. Historical greivance and 2. Religion the rest is all excuses.

I agree and your chances have reduced with Brexit. British are most easy on the Turks compared to others in Europe. With UK out Turkey has lost a major moderating force inside EU.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Okay which are [in order] the ten most westoxified countries in Asia. Westoxified has roots in workld by Iranian writer Jalal Ahmed.

"Persian gharbzadegi. Term coined by the Iranian secular intellectual Jalal al-e Ahmad to describe the fascination with and dependence upon the West to the detriment of traditional, historical, and cultural ties to Islam and Islamic world. Defined as an indiscriminate borrowing from and imitation of the West, joining the twin dangers of cultural imperialism and political domination."

Although this term was coined with referance to Islamic culture but we can use "native culture" as the benchmark. The degree of movement toward Western thought to the detriment of "native roots" can be measure of westoxification. This is my list of the most westoxified countries in Asia.


1. China
2. South Korea
3. Japan
4. Singapore
5 Philipines
6. Kazakstan
7. Azerbaijhan
8. Turkey
9. Lebonan
10.Uzbekistan

Lets have your list and critical thought/reasons. Don't forget this relates to the country as a whole or major determinant share of the population that can leverage the direction the country takes. The aggregate effect of this can be felt on the street level in the prevailing culture.

Can you clarify the definition of Westoxification? Are you talking just about people's mindsets or the everyday world around them?

Many things we take for granted maybe are well known for being Western but maybe the roots of it are not necessarily exclusive to the west. I'm pretty sure people were wearing pants long before Levi's jeans became popular. The fabric of clothes maybe is different with Western synthetic threads becoming popular but the basics are the same (well no zippers and snaps)

For everyday world things we can easily go into an infinite minutia of things from electricity, phones, elevators, cars to ball point pens etc..

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Can you clarify the definition of Westoxification?

Well it's a very loose term and the seed of it is defeat that has not been overcome. Instead it has persisted, rotting away and infecting peoples minds in many negative ways. Ultimately it is failure to take defeat, accept it, learn from it and move on.

How does it express itself? By opposing all and everthing that are explicit trappings of Western societies even if they have nothing to do with West like you said pants. So those who came up with this term and those who use it [I entirely disagree with this term] will go after pants, jeans, skirts and other aspects as indicators that a person is "westoxified". It could also be because they hold liberal values which they equate to the West.

A crude example of this "defeatism" which gave birth to the notion of "westoxification" can be seen in summits of world leaders. Watch out for "ethnic dress". Only countries that have history of poverty, defeated, colonized, raped, repressed and have failed to overcome these aspects of their history will find it neccessarry to tout pride in "ethnic clothing". It's form of reductive cowardice that can't handle the substance but has found ways to get solace in the superficial. Watch out for failing African states who leaders will swag about in "ethnic dress". This also applies to the countries in Asia who were defeated by the West and have not recovered.`It exposes lack of confidence. Something they accuse others of by calling them westoxified. I came across this in Pakistan when I first went there in the 1980s. The lady in front right is Bangladesh PM. Not too long ago called the "international basketcase". The blag guy in the back row is probably from some failing African country but finds nothing greater to show but his ethnic dress.

 

[StraightShooter]

Okay which are [in order] the ten most westoxified countries in Asia. Westoxified has roots in workld by Iranian writer Jalal Ahmed.

"Persian gharbzadegi. Term coined by the Iranian secular intellectual Jalal al-e Ahmad to describe the fascination with and dependence upon the West to the detriment of traditional, historical, and cultural ties to Islam and Islamic world. Defined as an indiscriminate borrowing from and imitation of the West, joining the twin dangers of cultural imperialism and political domination."

Although this term was coined with referance to Islamic culture but we can use "native culture" as the benchmark. The degree of movement toward Western thought to the detriment of "native roots" can be measure of westoxification. This is my list of the most westoxified countries in Asia.


1. China
2. South Korea
3. Japan
4. Singapore
5 Philipines
6. Kazakstan
7. Azerbaijhan
8. Turkey
9. Lebonan
10.Uzbekistan

Lets have your list and critical thought/reasons. Don't forget this relates to the country as a whole or major determinant share of the population that can leverage the direction the country takes. The aggregate effect of this can be felt on the street level in the prevailing culture.

Where is India? India should be at least be above Kazakhstan, if not in the top five.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Where is India?

India is badly suffering from schizophrenia. I think many Indians who matter are "westoxified" and that is a good thing. Indeed they are the people driving the country forward. indeed they are the ones who give backbone to Indian secularism. Hoewever with regret you have large chunk who also suffer from defeatism and have not overcome it. That is why Modi needs to dress in ethnic clothing. That is indicative of that tortured defeatism playing out. I would place India on the 11th list after Uzbekistan. Pakistan comes way low on this index. Probably at the bottom and just above the epic group like Afghanistan - which of course comes at the bottom along with Saudia.

 

[StraightShooter]

India is badly suffering from schizophrenia. I think many Indians who matter are "westoxified" and that is a good thing. Indeed they are the people driving the country forward. indeed they are the ones who give backbone to Indian secularism. Hoewever with regret you have large chunk who also suffer from defeatism and have not overcome it. That is why Modi needs to dress in ethnic clothing. That is indicative of that tortured defeatism playing out. I would place India on the 11th list after Uzbekistan. Pakistan comes way low on this index. Probably at the bottom and just above the epic group like Afghanistan - which of course comes at the bottom along with Saudia.

Incorrect. Even uneducated and poor Indians want to speak in English and follow the English culture. Whether they have succeeded in that or not is a different matter. But the desire and intent is surely there. All Indians irrespective of caste or social status would trade Indian culture and traditions (language, food, clothing, habits etc. ) for Western ones in a heartbeat. India should surely be placed at 6th if not above.

@Kaptaan Another point to note is how people behave when they are outside their countries without the pressure or influence of their government policies.

In US, All major Math competitions (Mathcounts, AMC etc.) are consistently won by Chinese while the English spelling bee is consistently won by Indians. This is conclusive proof that Indians by nature love English & English culture and Chinese doesn't. Hence I would even argue that India should top the chart.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Incorrect. Even uneducated and poor Indians want to speak in English and follow the English culture. Whether they have succeeded in that or not is a different matter. But the desire and intent is surely there. All Indians irrespective of caste or social status would trade Indian culture and traditions (language, food, clothing, habits etc. ) for Western ones in a heartbeat. India should surely be placed at 6th if not above.

Well frankly I will have to go with what you say. So what your saying is the "intent" [mindset] exists but it will take time to manifest itself being as you are a large country. If this is true then India will succeed as a country. No doubt about it.

You see what the detractors call "westoxification" is nothing to do with the West. It is recipe for success. It was a recipe that the West came up with first but that does not make it Western or bad. Cars were invented by the West. You don't call a guy driving a car "westoxified". The more we copy the recipe that made West a success the more we will succeed. Take a look at the Japanese. They have a history that few countries can match yet they have no issues in being westoxified. Neither do the Chinese. Look at Chinese state philosophy? What is Chinese about Marxism or Communism? Indeed the whole manifestation of the Peoples Republic comes across as copy of the Soviet Union including even the flag.

Ever seen traditional Chinese dress and culture?

A Chinese bride onthe way to wedding 1910.

Today

Hence I would even argue that India should top the chart.

It appears the yearning is there but it will take time for that to manifest itself. Any image from Chinese cities shows the manifestation of "westoxification" has already comprehensively taken place whereas in India I would say you have some time to get there.

 

[Jinn Baba]

Too much Game of Thrones came here expecting a discussion on Wasteros

 

[StraightShooter]

@Kaptaan Also, note how Indian try to mimic Western culture starting with naming Bollywood after Hollywood. Even going back to the 1960 we had movies like "An Evening in Paris" and "Night in London". Even today all Bollywood, Tollywood etc. movies worth its salt need to have songs or scenes shot in EU or US to attract the audience.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Also

Fair point. I am one of those who is accused of being westoxified and if that means accepting the recipe for the modern world which is what enabled the West to dominate I am cool with that. I do however often temper down my thinking with Pakistanis because lot of my views don't "fit" with their mindset. I notice when I meet Indians there is no such issue. Indeed despite having rivalry with India my views find more comfort with Indians then [most] of my own people. In that sense I am more "Indian" in my modernist outlook.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Well frankly I will have to go with what you say. So what your saying is the "intent" [mindset] exists but it will take time to manifest itself being as you are a large country. If this is true then India will succeed as a country. No doubt about it.

You see what the detractors call "westoxification" is nothing to do with the West. It is recipe for success. It was a recipe that the West came up with first but that does not make it Western or bad. Cars were invented by the West. You don't call a guy driving a car "westoxified". The more we copy the recipe that made West a success the more we will succeed. Take a look at the Japanese. They have a history that few countries can match yet they have no issues in being westoxified. Neither do the Chinese. Look at Chinese state philosophy? What is Chinese about Marxism or Communism? Indeed the whole manifestation of the Peoples Republic comes across as copy of the Soviet Union including even the flag.

Ever seen traditional Chinese dress and culture?

A Chinese bride onthe way to wedding 1910.

Today

It appears the yearning is there but it will take time for that to manifest itself. Any image from Chinese cities shows the manifestation of "westoxification" has already comprehensively taken place whereas in India I would say you have some time to get there.

I think your clothes example is a great point...let me expand on it even more and you can weigh in on the damage: Chinese marriage customs being influenced by the West.

1) some Chinese are wearing tuxedos and brides wearing white (white is a traditional funeral wear color in China)

2) some are adding the western "walking down the aisle" part of a wedding ceremony.
3) wedding/engagement rings
4) riding in a car with flowers