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Britain is No Longer a Major Military Power

I wonder what Mr. Trump would say if we billed the US for hosting USMC gear?

That's exactly what European countries are not doing.

Why do you think he has been audacious enough to do what he is doing?

You guys don't respond back fearing that if he backs off, you guys would be left vulnerable.

The better question to ask is what other then clownery and ignorance do you offer to this discussion? I guess we don't really need an answer from you since a mod has already obliged us with one instead.

Oh so I am offering clownery?

You guys just haven't even responded to a person who is blatantly accusing you of freeloading on his money despite the money you are telling me here that you guys spent.

The point is, trans-atlantic alliance isn't a practical one without a common enemy. US is eyeing China and China has no bone to pick with you. So where does this technically put European countries?
 

:-)


So why do you like @Vergennes calling me "a pole" instead of "a Pole".

Sorry you lost me. I have't called you a pole or thanked anyone calling you that. As for @Vergennes he is a very well respected member of the forum and a serving solider.


Hate??? Is this how you call telling the truth? I'm not a hater like @Blue Marlin

It's not the truth, you are kidding yourself. At times it seems like dross from the propaganda archives. You do have some points about colonial history.


Polish solders killed 8 civilians. The English killed tens of millions of civilians.
BTW I've allways been against Poland's participation it US war against Afganistan.

The Polish soldiers were let off. The British justice system imprisoned a decorated and immensely valuable soldier in the form of Sergeant Blackman. The English have not killed tens of thousands of people. I do not want to turn this thread into a UK V Poland slug fest, because as mentioned earlier I respect Polish folks and secondly it takes the thread off-topic.
 
@waz

Is calling people from Poland "Poles or Pole" an insult or a degrading term ? I've seen lot of people using it on this forum,so I don't know. If that is the case,I apologize for using this term or if I hurt people.
 
@Hamartia Antidote , having said that I'm not very sure about your commitment to help Argentina was as strong as you assume it to be. In the fight against communism, Latin America quickly descending into the red, I don't think you were that willing to lose an ally. And UK losing faulkands is actually no big deal. It's like Portugal losing Goa, after the deed was done, no one really gave a f**k. Life went on as normal for all.

Argentina was all messed up back in those days. The military pulled a coup and kicked out Isabel Peron. The economy was spiraling. People were angry and upset. You can think of it like Venezuela. Next thing you know they go and decide to retake the Falklands. The US thought it was a dumb and desperate act by the military just to get some thumbs up from the people and show they weren't a complete failure.
 
Argentina was all messed up back in those days. The military pulled a coup and kicked out Isabel Peron. The economy was spiraling. People were angry and upset. You can think of it like Venezuela. Next thing you know they go and decide to retake the Falklands. The US thought it was a dumb and desperate act by the military just to get some thumbs up from the people and show they weren't a complete failure.

In military term, Argentina is actually at underhand when they try to fend off the British Counter Attack.

I have studied Falkland campaign extensively, written a few article in that matter as well, and I came up with the conclusion the Royal Navy role in Falkland is actually quite small. And even RN lost a couple more ship, eventually, they would still win.

The RN job in the Falkland campaign is to cover the landing at San Carlos. That's a better way to say it, the more realistic way to say is that the RN is basically bait for the FAA, so the FAA would go and attack the ship, instead of attacking the troop on the ground.

On the other hand, FAA can only offer some degree of air support, which most of them are pulled to defend Argentina mainland from Vulcan Bomber, which the strike from Operation Blackbuck alter the way Argentina thinking on using their air power.

That leave the causal engagement between ARA and RN, the result is quite deadly for ARA, not because of the Aircraft Carrier RN employed during the War, but rather for subsurface ship.

Without Naval and Air Support, Argentine Army is basically all but doomed in Falkland. To allow Naval Support, the Argentine needed the Air Support, and to allow air support, the FAA have to take care of the Threat as far as ascension (Where the Blackbuck raid was launched) which is nearly impossible.
 
what if they had taken full delivery of exocet consignment and brought down more surface ships of RN? Public support for the war would be hit with a sledge hammer everytime that happened.

Wouldn't change much even if you sunk all 2 Destroyer and 6 frigate within San Carlos bay, the war is too far from England, and news coverage back then is not the same as today with Iraq and Afghanistan, the Ministry of Defence can easily censor it, and it won't reach the British Public until the end of war.

Tactically, the ship within that bay where the argentine already sunk 1 Destroyer and 2 Frigate, there are only 2 Type 22 frigate and 1 destroy left to defend San Carlos (discounting the older frigate) which mean if ARA have enough power to make it there, they would have rolled up RN, the big question is "IF"

In reality, the main RN force is outside San Carlos Water, and is due south escorting the 2 aircraft carrier. Those force are too far for ARA to reach, and without airpower, basically they are untouchable. Hence, even with FAA and ARA received full batch of exocet missile, the RN ship that's matter will be too far for Argentine to reach and since the lacking of complex ADS, which mean most FAA power are draw back to mainland, and little were actually used in the war. Meaning, even if you have full batch of exocet, there are not enough FAA aircraft to use it and they are too far to make a different.
 
No dude, as long as it was not commie and the government was bulwark against them, you were not going to go against them. In the end you just let your 2 allies squabble it out. At no point of time did you intervene. When the exocets began to fly you didn't even bother to put pressure on your 'friends' in argentinian govt. to stop usiing them. During the cold war, especially as Kissinger rose, there was no consideration of governance in any decision making.

And let me tell you Thatcher's track record was no better than the argentinians in those days. Her own country was plunged into general strikes (the miners had locked down), multiple police crackdowns and spiraling into doom. UK was no different than Argentina in that sense. She got this god gifted shitty war and did exactly what you accuse the argentinians of doing- use it to rally people and take their attention away from the complete mess their country was in.



what if they had taken full delivery of exocet consignment and brought down more surface ships of RN? Public support for the war would be hit with a sledge hammer everytime that happened.

I wouldn't call Argentina some big ally of the US. Certainly not bigger than the UK. It just happened that we had signed a treaty with most South American countries after WW2 to defend them from attacks from outsiders ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-American_Treaty_of_Reciprocal_Assistance ). We were bound to it no matter what moron was currently running Argentina. If Britain attacked the Argentine mainland we would be forced to join the War on Argentina's side whether we liked it or not.

So yes Argentina tried to invoke the treaty and we declined saying so far Britain hasn't done anything to Argentina to cause it to be invoked. We stayed on the sidelines with both sides wanting us in.
 
That's my point too. Britain had no automatic access to US support. Neither did Argentina of course.

Well just like Argentina; Thatcher could have tried to invoke Article 5 of NATO and have the US and others join in. Again the devil is in the details as it only covers stuff north of the Tropic of Cancer (which may exclude Hawaii BTW). So both sides were stymied by Treaty loopholes. That doesn't stop Thatcher from asking the non-US NATO members for material help. She could offer them some deal (possibly with US covert assistance) to help her out if needed.
 
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She might have. The point I'm making is that Britain alone winning the war had an element of luck to it. And that's the idea 'Great Britain' supporters are presenting. The fact is when the war brke out Argentinians had taken only a partial delivery of the Exocets they had ordered. The rest were lying with the French. A big mystery is- if Britain had continued to fight on its own, and if the Argentinians had taken full delivery, what would have been the result?

Certainly Britain was constrained militarily by the US's treaty with Argentina. If she were to do anything militarily that allowed Argentina to invoke the Treaty the war would be lost immediately. So she couldn't send her Air Force against the mainland, she couldn't use submarines to attack Argentine Navy ships in their territorial waters, and she couldn't sabotage any military complexes. Argentina itself was a military no-go zone. Not a great situation.

Britain's only option was to attempt to retake the islands. Luckily for them they own other islands in the Atlantic and were able to use them as staging/refueling areas. Otherwise it would have been really tricky for them to send an invasion fleet thousands of miles. It wouldn't have been a good outcome.

BTW these little islands Britain, France, US, and other have sprinkled across the world are critical to their being world military powers. It allows their militaries to move around the world seamlessly (and almost secretly) without the need for relying on third party countries for refueling. Britain isn't going to give them up easily.

Look at the maps in this thread and see how some countries can move around the world at will.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/nati...-overseas-territories-and-possessions.390961/
 
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No- the decline is not because of neo-liberalism but because Britain doesn't have any special sauce that allows you to punch above your weight. A small country needs a very advanced culture to dominate despite its size- like Japan where the discipline and the focus of the whole community towards it's state is absolute. A bunch of beered up codgers lving in ancient glory and stolen money were never going to have that. it's delusional. Like, let me put these points across.

I'm not sure how much you know about the economic reasons for Britain's decline or relative slow down, your points on culture don't mean much. The economy is everything, and until about the 1980s, Britain's industries were not nearly as crippled or non-existent as they are today. I reiterate my point, neoliberal policy has accelerated decline that was to happen anyway, and added on some misery where it wasn't necessary.

The economy is everything and it sustains the toys you were listing and counting, and the decline in the UK's economy was sped up and helped to arrive at its conclusion by Mrs Thatcher. She destroyed what industry and manufacturing there was, while other subsidies their manufacturing sector, she eliminated all subsidies. From then on, Britain has had almost constant current account deficits, and it also marked a serious point of restructuring of the economy, there were immediate effects such as much higher unemployment, recession, but also a long term readjustment to higher levels of unemployment, a switch to the services sector, a disparity between savings and spending, which in turn lowered investment.

It led to temporary growth and all the neoliberals were hailing it as a miracle, but they were proven wrong. It was pure short sighted and visionless leadership. They were none too bright, they sought to reduce inflation through monetarist policies, which they had to abandon for their own good for the massive recession it caused.

This was a major turning point in Britain's economy, now it's an economy driven by consumer growth, which in turn is cannibalised by higher inequality. Savings rates are super low, investment's weak, productivity growth is too low, and what little growth their is, is usually sustained by a ever increasing debt, both private and public, and a strong pound which exacerbates the effect of strong consumerism vs weak industry.
 
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/11...no-longer-have-the-resources-for-a-major-war/

This Sunday, David Cameron will lay a wreath at the Cenotaph to commemorate those who made the ultimate sacrifice during two ruinous world wars. People will say ‘Never Again’ and Cameron will agree. But then, thanks to the drastic cuts he has made to the strength of our armed forces, the Prime Minister need not worry himself unduly about Britain’s involvements in any future conflicts. He need not gnash his teeth too much about MPs’ reluctance to back military intervention in Syria because, as matters stand, Britain would be unable to fight a major war even if it wanted to.


This would perhaps make sense in a time of great peace, but the world is not short on existential threats. Syria’s brutal civil war isn’t just a conflict between fanatical Sunni and Shia Muslim militias — the exponential growth of extreme Islamist groups such as Islamic State poses as much of a threat to the security of the West as it does to that of the Arab world. As Andrew Parker, MI5’s director-general, recently warned, Isis terrorists based in Syria — many of whom have UK passports — are actively planning mass-casualty attacks on the streets of Britain.

Then there is Vladimir Putin’s Russia, which is trying to flex its muscles on behalf of the beleaguered Bashar al-Assad. Russia’s intervention has confirmed what many of us have been saying for a year or more: you will not defeat Isis by air power alone.

Nor, during a scan for possible global threats, can we ignore George Osborne’s new Chinese chums in the People’s Liberation Army. Beijing’s apparent obsession with dominating the South China Sea has put it on a collision course with both Japan and the US. Washington has finally found the courage to confront China about this — but if China really is angling for a confrontation, which side will Mr Osborne choose? Our long-standing post-war allies, or his favoured nuclear energy providers?

These are just a few of the more visible threats we may face in the years ahead (and that’s without mentioning the Falklands), and yet Britain cannot right now respond in any meaningful military way. Our armed forces are so feeble as to be almost -irrelevant.

What did we do when Russia annexed Crimea? Downing Street dispatched 100 or so military advisers to Kiev to help train government forces. What did we do when Libya plunged, post-Gaddafi, into chaos? We deployed 300 non-combatant military personnel to South Sudan and Somalia.

It is a measure of just how far the stature of our armed forces has fallen in the past five years of cuts that our allies no longer talk of Britain deploying ‘boots on the ground’. They joke about us putting a few ‘sandals in the sand’.

We find ourselves in this parlous position largely because of the conclusions reached five years ago by the last government’s disastrous Strategic Defence and Security Review. The review was conducted on the naive assumption, presented in the government’s equally egregious National Security Strategy, that we faced no apparent threats to our security or national interests. It allowed the Tory/Lib Dem coalition to make the most drastic cuts to our defence budget for a generation.

The military has endured drastic cuts before. At the end of the Cold War, significant cuts were possible without losing fundamental military capabilities. But the problem with the 2010 review was that it prescribed significant cuts to military spending at a time when the defence budget was already under severe pressure as a consequence of New Labour’s ineptitude.

Tony Blair’s evangelical enthusiasm for military interventions was not matched by much extra money to pay for them. The real scandal of the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts was the crippling equipment shortages that resulted in higher British fatality and casualty rates. The MoD’s efforts to plug these gaps by relocating funds from other programmes contributed to the infamous £37 billion black hole in defence spending that the Tories inherited when they came to power.

If balancing the books was, understandably, the previous government’s first priority on defence, the undisguised relish with which some ministers set about degrading Britain’s ability both to defend its interests and project power has had truly catastrophic consequences for our military capabilities.

Continue....
The scrapping of the Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft programme without any proper consideration of its likely replacement means that now, when Russian submarines try to monitor the activities of the Trident fleet in the North Sea, we have to beg the French to loan us one of their planes to patrol our territorial waters. Manning levels in the Royal Navy have reached the point where serious questions are being asked about its ability to crew both of the new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers, while cutting the number of soldiers by one fifth means the Army would struggle to replicate the division-strength deployments it managed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The general consensus in the military is that Britain has cut the strength of its armed forces by one third since the last strategic review. Officers talk about the military being ‘hollowed out’, so that while it still looks as though we have sufficient kit, our lack of personnel, lack of training and lack of readily available supplies mean our position is deceptive. If we ever needed the military to deploy in strength, the deployment would be unsustainable.

The question now is whether the new defence review — due later this month — will change anything. The Downing Street line is that now that the Tories enjoy an overall majority, Mr Cameron is personally invested in rebuilding Britain’s military standing. This is supposed to have been reflected in George Osborne’s announcement in his July budget that Britain would honour its Nato commitment to spend 2 per cent of GDP on defence. That would be nice, but what will this 2 per cent figure amount to once Whitehall has undertaken its customary accounting skulduggery?

Oliver Letwin, for example, who is regarded as the ideological driving force behind the last parliament’s assault on our military infrastructure, is said to favour relocating a significant chunk of ‘defence spend’ to counter-terrorism operations — normally paid for by the combined budgets of MI6, MI5 and GCHQ. It’s whispered that military pensions, a significant cost that is usually separate from defence expenditure, could also now be included in it. Michael Fallon, the Defence Secretary, insists that Nato, not the UK government, will decide whether these clever accounting tricks meet alliance requirements.

The best indication of whether the Prime Minister actually plans to restore the fortunes of our armed forces is whether it looks as if he would actually deploy the armed forces in any meaningful fashion — and here things look less promising again, and not just because his MPs would rebel.

Mr Cameron provided a telling insight into how he sees the future of Britain’s involvement in overseas operations when he declared a preference for the extra funds to be spent on special forces and drones. It’s an alluring prospect — no squaddies in body bags; death delivered at a distance, risk-free. But as recent events in Syria and Iraq have shown, waging war by remote control only delivers marginal results. A year into the military campaign against Isis, in which the West has relied heavily on drones and special forces, Islamic State occupies more territory and boasts more followers than it did this time last year.

Relying on drones without useful intelligence on the ground can be highly counter-productive. In Afghanistan last month, a US drone hit what was supposed to be a Taleban stronghold in Kunduz, but turned out to be a hospital. Twenty-two innocent civilians were reported to have been killed and many more injured. This one drone disaster has been invaluable to Islamist groups across the world. Look what America does, they say — it kills the innocent and sick. Technology that was supposed to save innocent lives has ended up endangering far more.

We’re all wary of boots on the ground — but the truth is that sometimes the alternative is worse. Look at Libya, where Islamist militants have prospered as a direct result of the government’s refusal to deploy ground forces during the military campaign to overthrow Colonel Muammar Gaddafi. Although Mr Cameron was one of the cheerleaders for military intervention, he now behaves as though he would rather everyone forgot about his contribution to the creation of this lawless calamity.

It has fallen to Mr Putin to demonstrate that, while the West seems obsessed with waging war by remote control, there is no substitute for drawing on raw military power to achieve your goals. Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Crimea and perhaps even Damascus demonstrate what can be achieved through the application of force.

No one is suggesting Britain and its allies should embark on a campaign of conquest in central Europe and the Middle East. But if we are to prevent others from so doing, then we will need more than a few drones and special forces to protect our interests.
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Old but interesting article.
 
I'm not sure how much you know about the economic reasons for Britain's decline or relative slow down, your points on culture don't mean much. The economy is everything, and until about the 1980s, Britain's industries were not nearly as crippled or non-existent as they are today. I reiterate my point, neoliberal policy has accelerated decline that was to happen anyway, and added on some misery where it wasn't necessary.

The economy is everything and it sustains the toys you were listing and counting, and the decline in the UK's economy was sped up and helped to arrive at its conclusion by Mrs Thatcher. She destroyed what industry and manufacturing there was, while other subsidies their manufacturing sector, she eliminated all subsidies. From then on, Britain has had almost constant current account deficits, and it also marked a serious point of restructuring of the economy, there were immediate effects such as much higher unemployment, recession, but also a long term readjustment to higher levels of unemployment, a switch to the services sector, a disparity between savings and spending, which in turn lowered investment.

It led to temporary growth and all the neoliberals were hailing it as a miracle, but they were proven wrong. It was pure short sighted and visionless leadership. They were none too bright, they sought to reduce inflation through monetarist policies, which they had to abandon for their own good for the massive recession it caused.

This was a major turning point in Britain's economy, now it's an economy driven by consumer growth, which in turn is cannibalised by higher inequality. Savings rates are super low, investment's weak, productivity growth is too low, and what little growth their is, is usually sustained by a ever increasing debt, both private and public, and a strong pound which exacerbates the effect of strong consumerism vs weak industry.

Your points don't make sense. Britain's GDP has expanded all through this time, so it cannot be the economy. It is the natural characteristic of a 'small country' and it's attendant limitations that is coming into play here. More money has not changed that. As for the others- countries like Russia have faced similar issues and still remained major powers.
 
Your points don't make sense. Britain's GDP has expanded all through this time, so it cannot be the economy. It is the natural characteristic of a 'small country' and it's attendant limitations that is coming into play here. More money has not changed that. As for the others- countries like Russia have faced similar issues and still remained major powers.

My points do make sense if you have an understanding of what they mean, the GDP did expand but only at a slower pace than before and with inflation remaining high, Britain's long term economic prospects were hit, you don't need a shrinking GDP for that to be the case.
 

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