The growing agitation of Pakistanis against USA

[Jungibaaz]

Hello Sir!

It is 2013. Noone in Pak is using WoT like terms anymore unless one happens to be ex-commie-current Islamist or simply Talib-bozo sympathizer.

How original!

So am I one of the above?
You also like labelling people, huh?

In Pakistan, it is now a war for our survival against the onslaught of Islamists.

Yes, an onslaught! for our very survival.
We can't change our mistakes from the past.

I agree with you in that sense, not just TTP, but extremism must be rooted out.
And there's is no quick fix to this, a military solution is only temporary.

The real solution is development and so on.

And yes what I say is mainly being done by our top brass.

and look where it has gotten us.

It is just that we have so many Pakistanis settled in UK/US who are propagating Islamist agenda and thus resulting in killing of our innocent Jawans and officers and civilians.

yes, go on... blame the expats.

Were responsible for all the troubles you endure.

Please come to Pakistan and see the reality.

And what is it you'd like me to see?
Do you honestly think that we are this disconnected?

I could go on and tell you that I do frequently visit, and not just in a holiday fashion.
but what's the point trying to argue that with you?

In UK mosques they just preach Islamism in one way or the other

Isolated and rare cases, it's true.
but please come to the UK and see the reality before you keep on insulting and blaming expats.

That just happens to be out of date by at least 30 years.

And you poor folk sitting in the mother land are victims of the evil of the traitor expats...

and so on...

 

[muse]

Lets avoid getting personal and stick to the conversation - a new relationship with the US by definition means a new Pakistan

 

[FaujHistorian]

Lets avoid getting personal and stick to the conversation - a new relationship with the US by definition means a new Pakistan

Absolutely nothing personal. Just ideas.


So.

What is is this new relationship? beyond which we are already doing.

Here it is.


1. Provide a supply route (land and air) to US for its Afghanistan effort. (we charge money for this)
2. Share intelligence (again very little)


What else are we doing for USA that we need to change?

peace

 

[muse]

Absolutely nothing personal. Just ideas.


So.

What is is this new relationship? beyond which we are already doing.

Here it is.


1. Provide a supply route (land and air) to US for its Afghanistan effort. (we charge money for this)
2. Share intelligence (again very little)


What else are we doing for USA that we need to change?

peace

We are deeply involved with the US and certainly not in the way that you have outlined, in fact there are even USMIL and Contractors on Pakistani facilities in Pakistan (please don't ask for details, I will not provide them, but if you can, accept that I am not telling you lies, for any reason)

Pakistan's security relationship with the US no longer serves Pakistani interests, however; a significant portion of the officer corps disagrees with this assertion, they see the contrary - I would suggest that what they really see is not Pakistani interests but their personal interests and while I will grant that this is less than cordial, it seems to me that the issue is one which is beyond cordial, the case these officers make is known to most all, you articulate them and on Indian member also high lighted them (they run the show, it's with them or against them and if it's against them, they will destroy you, anyway, something to that effect)

I would suggest that this is an oversimplification - and even if it is not, Pakistan ought to have nothing to do with the US project to reshape the Muslim world (Mali will be the 8th Muslim majority country attacked by the West)

My position is that Pakistan must end it's dependency on the US for the access and support t offers at IFI and the military grants it offers in return for detailed dossisers on Pakistani officer corps, in all three services - that to be able to end this dependency, Pakistan need to under take economic reforms and that these are only possible in a politics that is not the so called "Democracy" which enables the politcal elite and punishes the Pakistani populace and state.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Is there any recent sucessful model (last 50 years) for how a society rids itself of the controlling aspects of a feudal or post-feudal elite? It seems like Pakistan must find a process for achieving a much stronger (politically and economically) middle class if it is to change for the better. Is Chili a potential model?

 

[FaujHistorian]

We are deeply involved with the US and certainly not in the way that you have outlined, in fact there are even USMIL and Contractors on Pakistani facilities in Pakistan (please don't ask for details, I will not provide them, but if you can, accept that I am not telling you lies, for any reason)

Pakistan's security relationship with the US no longer serves Pakistani interests, however; a significant portion of the officer corps disagrees with this assertion, they see the contrary - I would suggest that what they really see is not Pakistani interests but their personal interests and while I will grant that this is less than cordial, it seems to me that the issue is one which is beyond cordial, the case these officers make is known to most all, you articulate them and on Indian member also high lighted them (they run the show, it's with them or against them and if it's against them, they will destroy you, anyway, something to that effect)

I would suggest that this is an oversimplification - and even if it is not, Pakistan ought to have nothing to do with the US project to reshape the Muslim world (Mali will be the 8th Muslim majority country attacked by the West)

My position is that Pakistan must end it's dependency on the US for the access and support t offers at IFI and the military grants it offers in return for detailed dossisers on Pakistani officer corps, in all three services - that to be able to end this dependency, Pakistan need to under take economic reforms and that these are only possible in a politics that is not the so called "Democracy" which enables the politcal elite and punishes the Pakistani populace and state.

OK.

so I missed one. Here is a list of what Pakistan does for or with USA.


1. Provide a supply route (land and air) to US for its Afghanistan effort. (we charge money for this)
2. Share intelligence (again very little)
3. Joint training programs in USA and in Pakistan (when officers from two sides visit each others' facilities).


#1 will reduce to minimal after 2014. So need to make a fuss about it at this late stage.
#2 will continue for a while - And as long Gen. Kiyani is OK with this, I am OK.
#3 Joint training program will continue for a while as well. Again as long Gen. Kiyani is OK with this, I am OK.

#2 and #3 are professional decsions. If the top brass say OK. we are OK. And if the top brass says it is not OK, well then it is not OK.



Now for other countries like Mali.


Well what do we care?

My great uncle used to say "Timbaktu" as a reference to some far off unknown place.

If USA asks us to provide military support there, we may have to think.

But otherwise

-- Begani shaadi main Abdullah Diwana

applies well to any Pakistani worrying too much about Mali.


Peace.

 

[muse]

Fair enough - Like I said a significant number of the officer corps has this Western and Arab orientation - should this survive, Pakistan will not ---

 

[RazorMC]

Fair enough - Like I said a significant number of the officer corps has this Western and Arab orientation - should this survive, Pakistan will not ---

Well said. We have somehow developed a servile attitude towards other countries, mostly for personal gain.

Post edited...

 

[RazorMC]

...
We the Pakistanis need to calm down.
...
If Pakistan had cash, USA would offer similar deal to Pakistan without any hesitation. Pakistanis unfortunately have used ethnic nationalism and religious fanaticism to destroy our exports to the West. Few Westerners want to even transit through Karachi. They fly straight to Shanghai, and Mumbai.
...
The bottom line is that Pakistan needs to take a well-thought out approach to this, and who knows we may come ahead in this game.

All valid points. Rationality has become a rare trait for us while we find pleasure in being judgemental.

And I fully agree with you on the financial situation. Why would anyone want to sign such an important deal with Pakistan when they have so little to gain? Markets will always be open to those who have the cash.

Plus, an anti-US stance is something neither our military strength nor our economic conditions allow. All we need is to have a strong and well-defined foreign policy that looks at cooperation rather than serving their interests.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Well said. We have somehow developed a servile attitude towards other countries, mostly for personal gain. Instead of dividing further, we need to develop a sense of unity and nationalism.

Just to clarify my dear dear dear dear poster!


Pak army perhaps is the largest and most disciplined and "united and nationalist" institution in our beloved Pakistan compared to our bureaucracy, political elite, college professors, Student unions, and media jurnos.


Anyone questioning their professionalism and their patriotism need to get some examination done and done it quickly.


Now coming to "Servile" attitude and I don't understand what you really mean.

From a world class level professional soldier POV,

-- You salute the one who is superior to you in rank (doesn't matter if that superior is from Amreeka, Pakistan, or Timbaktu).

-- And you expect that anyone junior to you will salute you (doesn't matter if that superior is from Amreeka, Pakistan, or Timbaktu).


When Pakistani officers are invited onboard an aircraft carrier stationed in Arabia sea or the gulf, they salute or get saluted by the Americans just like any other American officer.

When the meetings are on (I am giving a view by the ones who were in the meetings) the same junior-senior officer relationship exists.

However Pakistani officers do comment that Americans are less formal in many ways. But then that's nothing specific while interfacing with Pak army. That's how American officers are with each other as well.


so please do not use terms such as "Servile" "slave" master as they are not applicable to professional soldiers.

thank you

 

[muse]

Anyone questioning their professionalism and their patriotism need to get some examination done and done it quickly

Hmm, well I guess the Pakistani nation is going to have it's head examined - I don't know but do you get around in Pakistan?

 

[FaujHistorian]

All valid points. Rationality has become a rare trait for us while we find pleasure in being judgemental.

And I fully agree with you on the financial situation. Why would anyone want to sign such an important deal with Pakistan when they have so little to gain? Markets will always be open to those who have the cash.

Plus, an anti-US stance is something neither our military strength nor our economic conditions allow. All we need is to have a strong and well-defined foreign policy that looks at cooperation rather than serving their interests.

Well said.

Thank you.

for us Pakistanis, USA is not an entity in an "either this or that" category.

We can and should have good relations with all the world powers. And USA happens to be the #1 in that group of powers.


peace

 

[RazorMC]

...

Looks like you do not appreciate (and that's a hunch, correct me if I am wrong) that

Pak army perhaps is the largest and most disciplined and "united and nationalist" institution in our beloved Pakistan compared to our bureaucracy, political elite, college professors, Student unions, and media jurnos.

...

Edited the last part of my earlier post. That phrase was referring to another issue (so sleepy now...)

I do appreciate what the men/women of the Pak-Mil have done for this country. No one doubts that. But you, sir, talk mostly of their interaction with other militaries. I refer to other issues.

How exactly did we benefit from Zia's tenure of Saudi dominance? Or from Musharraf's overly pro-US policies?

Our soldiers risk death on the borders, but for what? So that some high-ranking person back home can storm into Islamabad at will?

I can certainly say that their sacrificies for Pakistan are limitless and I whole-heartedly agree to your post, but Islamabad should remain out of bounds for them. Soldiers make good protectors, but not good policy-makers.

 

[muse]

Is there any recent sucessful model (last 50 years) for how a society rids itself of the controlling aspects of a feudal or post-feudal elite? It seems like Pakistan must find a process for achieving a much stronger (politically and economically) middle class if it is to change for the better. Is Chili a potential model?

I don't know if the experience of other countries is transferable - what I am pointing to is that in Pakistan, a explosive situation is arising - talking to people, absolutely ordinary people (lower middle class and the poor) you cannot but come away with the sense that we are on a powder keg - "Khuni Inqilab" are words one hears ordinary people using and at least to me, this is a new development.

As for the uniformed types, one can understand and one does not look to these for critical thinking anyway, they are by training averse to such and of course when in uniform, again by training, questioning is not what they are drilled in, but in the discipline of obedience.

More and more you hear people talking about what is Pakistan and who is it for and where, if at all, they fit in -- I am persuaded that these sentiments can be attenuated with people having the opportunity to have materially better lives.

Do Pakistani politicians get this? Obviously not, would they be the kinds of people they are or be inviolved in the kinds of activities they re involved in, if they got this?

The military then? No, these are duffers, what they aspire to is exactly what the feudals aspire to, it's an upstairs downstairs relationship between them - ad really what you have is a bunch of people from Chak number such and such and you think they aspire to create a society where opportunity is abundant? why then did they have to sacrifice all those years in the service?? Anyways, they have had multiple chances to demonstrate they actually have a plan and all they have come up with, is closer relations with the US which only serves to drive the populace further away from the armed forces.

So, what needs to be done? If the politicians and military cannot serve up the solution, what then must be done? If the Politicians and the military are actually the obstacles, what then must be done?

 

[Hyperion]

Dude there were no Mujahidin and there are no Taliban. It's a nomenclature issue. When they were fighting for American cause, they were "freedom fighters", "The Braveheart", "The Mujahidin". Then, when the same people changed their allegiances, they became enemy combatants and a new badge was slapped on them, "The Taliban"!

We didn't help the situation either, we played right into their hands and created two sub-division, "good" and "bad" Taliban.

@haviZsultan American never created Taliban, American supported all Mujahiddin factions of all ethnicity, Taliban was picked and groomed by Pakistan for strategic depth in Afghanistan.