The growing agitation of Pakistanis against USA

[Jungibaaz]

Why wouldn't we be growing so agitated?
We've fought our war, and we fought their war.
We had to carry not only our weight but also that of a superpower.

And 2004/5 is gone, MNNA status means nothing, our continued support despite the price we pay meant nothing.
US/Pak relations are built upon self-interest of another sort. Pakistan has also been used as a scapegoat for political posturing.

I for one wholeheartedly believe that we have gone too far with trying to side with the US. Have we learnt nothing from history? even that of our own past? Sanctions would have hurt then, but even know when we sacrifice so much, including our pride, sanctions are still a possibility. With growing involvement in their war, our country has suffered, undeniably, we are worse off today than we have ever been.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Dear Haviz,

Please be reasonable. Piling up dung on the super power of the world will only hurt one party. And that is We the Pakistanis.


You bring up so many issues against USA without deep thinking. Popular street lingo should never be the way to go for a "Think Tank" even if he is a Jr. one.

Pretty much every issue listed in your "complaints" against USA is nothing new. Every Jummah khutba by 2-bit Mullahs say the same thing.

So where is your contribution, your thinking independent of the street level khawancha farosh 3rd grade and 3rd rate so-called intellectuals?

Where is it.

You talk about nuclear deals of US-India. have you ever gone deeper than just raising slogans?


We the Pakistanis need to calm down.

USA has always known that India is the instigator and the main culprit in the regions when it comes to the nuclear tests. Pakistan never initiated nor threatened anyone with nukes. The only exception was a "retaliatory" response to Indians. So from US perspective Pakistani nuclear doctrine is a lot less aggressive and hence safer. Involvement of some of our nuclear scientists in illicit trade was an unfortunate thing and US feels that Pakistani government has clamped down on such incidents.

Americans have major benefits from the Indo-US deal.

A. The first and major benefit is that once India is producing 25% of its electricity, it will think twice before exploding a nuclear device.

B. It will also stop India from developing indigenous tech that it would need to develop had it remained under the sanctions and no support from the USA.

C. The biggest benefit for the USA is that it can sell turnkey nuclear plants worth $2-3 billion each. Thanks to the hardworking Indians in their service and manufacturing sectors, Indian government is flush with cash. Not sure how long the cash will survive, but if does, then USA and its allies will make sure they get a share. Also this is one of the many ways USA can get cash and to some degree balance the trade deficit with India.

D. Benefit for the USA is that Indian nuclear program and defense industry will slowly get tied into Western system, reducing the chance of future confrontation with India, and further increasing Indian view of its dominance in the Indian ocean. Which by the way is more psychological than practical. No power in the world can stop American navy from overwhelming any part of the global control of the seas/oceans including Indian ocean.


If Pakistan had cash, USA would offer similar deal to Pakistan without any hesitation. Pakistanis unfortunately have used ethnic nationalism and religious fanaticism to destroy our exports to the West. Few Westerners want to even transit through Karachi. They fly straight to Shanghai, and Mumbai.

Shanghai brings another important aspect in this discussion.

Many Pakistani (and pro-Pakistani) analysts do not bring China's purchase of US nuclear plants in the analysis. China has been buying US nuclear plants long before India. Again that is purely a way for Americans to get back some of the cash that Chinese earn from Sino-US trade.

These plants are typically 1000 MW and sold for $2-3 billion on turnkey basis. It is very hard to copy that technology or smuggle anything out of these plants. So it is "relatively safe" bet for the USA. For Pakistan, the financial situation is dire. We can all see that if we are dying to get $6 billion to remain afloat for next 6 months, how would we pay for additional $3 billion for each plant we buy?

That brings us to the question that one may ask. What should Pakistan do?

Well here are few suggestions.

1. Pakistanis should not panic. it is not the end of the world
2. We should not overplay Pak-Chinese nuclear plant deals.
3. Chinese plants are much smaller (less than 300 MW), and
4. Chinese cannot deliver them quickly
5. Pakistan does not have cash to pay for the Chinese plants either.
6. Think about signing NPT. Now that India is out of the picture, why we should be the lone holdouts? Had we signed NPT in the middle of Indo-US negotiations, we could have put enormous pressure on India. Unfortunately we lost the opportunity.

The West and especially France may be willing to loan $3 billion to Pakistan so that we can buy plants from them. That would be possible only if we are willing to sign the NPT.

The bottom line is that Pakistan needs to take a well-thought out approach to this, and who knows we may come ahead in this game.


peace

 

[Contrarian]

Well, lets let Pakistanis decide what is and is not a " NO NO" - Pakistan and China are neighbors, share a border, the dynamic is very different from that between Pakistani and US, though you make a valid point that the interests of nations change, however, the interests of nations that share a border and a friendly border at that, well, that is a different dynamic isn't it?

Isnt this a forum where people of other nationalities speak their mind? In that case Pakistani's are also the ones who decided to forge a similar higher than himalayas friendship with US.

So the answer to your question is that even though neighbours across a friendly borders may share a different relationship - the answer is NO. With time, the priorities of nations - even neighbours - can often come at cross roads and thus letting any other nation have a military base on your own soil is selling out. If you - Pakistani's - call selling out to the US by letting them run wild in Pakistan, then the situation is no different by allowing China a military base in Pakistan.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Why wouldn't we be growing so agitated?
We've fought our war, and we fought their war.
We had to carry not only our weight but also that of a superpower.

And 2004/5 is gone, MNNA status means nothing, our continued support despite the price we pay meant nothing.
US/Pak relations are built upon self-interest of another sort. Pakistan has also been used as a scapegoat for political posturing.

I for one wholeheartedly believe that we have gone too far with trying to side with the US. Have we learnt nothing from history? even that of our own past? Sanctions would have hurt then, but even know when we sacrifice so much, including our pride, sanctions are still a possibility. With growing involvement in their war, our country has suffered, undeniably, we are worse off today than we have ever been.

This post is yet another example of

--- Do what I say
--- Do not do what I do

Oh Bhai sahib, why on earth you fail to see that USA is not alone. It has close allies like UK, and Germany in Europe and then pretty much the whole developed world including Japan and South Korea from Asia, South Africa, and Australia.

Taking on USA or even abandoning it means shooting in our foot (like Pakistanis Commies, Socialists and now Islamists have been doing since 1947)

Because you just can't abandon USA, you will end up doing the same thing with UK (at the same time) that happens to be your country of residence (if not a country of your citizenship).


It is just pathetic to see that so many Paks work for the Queen

But then

They tell Pakistan to pee on the same queen.

What is this? if not sheer madness.


Just sheer childishness

 

[KRAIT]

@FaujHistorian I don't agree on few points especially why US offered Civil Nuclear Deal to India which I have explained but rest You are correct.

 

[KRAIT]

@FaujHistorian US became superpower because it kicked out Emotions from its Policies.

 

[haviZsultan]

@FaujHistorian US became superpower because it kicked out Emotions from its Policies.

If they kicked out emotions then they wouldn't have bombed Japan with nukes. Now they have no credibility in regard when they talk of WMD's and what not. Just their power that allows them to dictate things there. Furthermore if they weren't emotional they wouldn't get bogged down in Afghanistan and would have ensured they got Bin Laden through other means. Its very easy to provoke them into a war. They react like angry murderers the moment they are provoked with unparalleled force.

@FaujHistorian next time remember to tag me before posting so I know what you posted and it was in response to me. I will be giving responses tomorrow as today my head feels like its on fire. Another long post would kill me.

 

[Kaniska]

Recently I said the following in a response to @FaujHistorian:



There is something like living with honor which no one taught us, thats why.



You are even more cynical than me. You are right. But that doesn't reduce the disrespect we suffered at their hands.



At least they are standing up for what they believe in. There is an option of throwing your interests in the bin and following in quiet subservience while there is another of raising your head and living with pride. We are being blamed, disrespected despite being in the war. Why not get out of it then. The Taliban are against us, the US is, India is, and we've made an Afghanistan that is hostile... fun times.



It can be used to pressure Americans into reassessing the role they have played in our issues.



I am not directing policy. But if I was I would prefer to stay in a jhopri to create a precedent.





We are not a child to be slapped. We did not toe the line and wished to guard our interests so they slapped us and it wasn't on the wrist.

I don't remember how we are forsaking these interests:
1) Nuke deal with India but refused to Pakistan
2) Davis kills 2 Pakistanis and escapes. There is no proof of Afia being a terrorist and still in jail and will be there forever.
3) Fazlullah hiding in Kunar. Faqir Mohammed's (Ex-Bajaur Chief's) bases in Afghanistan.
4) US refusal to condemn India for the Siachen incursion but raising an outcry on the Kargil one which was made by fauji's after the Siachen debacle when they took 1000 miles of our land.
5) USA's offer to sell better quality F16's to India compared to what they sold us.
6) Framing of Pakistani innocents in the name of terrorism-Seen it, researched it.
7) Maltreatment of Pakistanis in airports and hounding of Pakistani political Organizations in north America. Even secular ones. Yes-this is the only thing they are good at.
8) Support for dictators in Pakistani land. 3 major ones had their backing. Zia was the one who Islamicized Pakistan with their blessing in case you did not notice.
9) Presler Amendment. When we were not needed by USA anymore. Cold war over, Afghanistan in ruins but of course the Soviets disgraced as they wanted that is what came. Military and economic cooperation CUT and mark my words IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN-200% chance and I bet on my life when this war on terror is over this will come again. They will harass us even more than they are now.
10) The blame Pakistan suffers on a daily basis. Pakistan is held responsible for every failure. I believe you think we are responsible. Partly I agree, yes. But you do not know about the successes, Ramzir yousuf, Baradar, Khalid Sheikh (top 9/11 terrorist) were all capture by us.
11) Pakistan counting on US support and not getting any in 1971. Weak point? Leave that then. I think it is too. But consider the rest.
12) Add to this the Indian nuclear test smiling Buddha in 74 being ignored by the US while our military and economy being sanctioned.
13) Add to this the framing of Kashmiri activist Syed Ghulam Nabi Fai in a false case as an ISI agent in another attempt to malign ISI

And I already explained what a hypocritical country Solomon is from and what things it has done that destroy any moral standing it has at all.



If they are this benevolent then its time to re compensate us of $80 Billion we lost in the war on terror. Lets see their generosity. Till now I have only heard Panetta's orgasms and his threats or blame. When those end I will be eager to deal with the Americans.

I agree some Pakistanis have benefited. Not all though.



I am a sworn enemy of every Islamist but I also admit that they have constantly throughout history been supported by our so-called allies-Ibn Abdul Wahab received massive support from British empire, and these terrorist commanders once sat with the Americans and Haqqani shook hands with the president. Bin Ladin sat in their embassy in Karachi.

I suppose it didn't occur to that president then that the Haqqani man he was shaking hands with had blood on his hands-or perhaps it did but that blood was cheap since it was Pashtun/Afghan blood he had spilled. Since you do not consider Wazirs your people you will not understand this point. I consider Pashtuns my people and work for my lands unity-therefore I am a Pakistani Nationalist.

But I could learn a lesson here. I have called many others the same word including Zarvan and now see how annoying it is.



my dear that's not good

for country to be pitted against a super power.

Thank you for your kind consideration.

You fear them but a strong foreign policy is often better than an extremely weak one or in our case none at all but one of quiet subservience.

When a colleague of mine told me of a Sufferers Witness case of a young woman from Punjab who was continuously being raped by her cousin and refusing to report it to the police because of "family honor" but just wanted the activist on the phone to give her some help convincing him to stop. I told my colleague she is a hopeless case. But the women's rights activists are mad. She said she has to break loose. Say NO. We are that woman.

Just because that cousin is strong we should not let him bully into submission. Strenghthen our foreign policy, everything falls into place. We don't do it Pakistan may fall apart.[/QUOTE]

You are one out of some of the posters in PDF whoose posts are worth reading....Keep up your good analysis and good work..

 

[FaujHistorian]

@FaujHistorian US became superpower because it kicked out Emotions from its Policies.

Sure that is one characteristic.

But in general America the super power has all the good and perhaps all the bads associated with the super powers of the past like Ottomans, the Romans, or more recently the Brits.

No one says America is run by saints and no one says America has brought Jesus back to earth.

Heck no.

It is a country that we should not fear.

It is a country that we should learn from

It is a country that we should work with as much as they want and we can provide (mutually agreed terms)



And

sometimes in future


If China becomes a super power

It too will have the goods and the bads like the powers of the past and present.


And

At that time

if Pakistan decides to work closely with the "super power", that too will be a practical decision.

Emotional sentences like "selling out" etc. do not apply when you are working with the super power of the time.

No emotions what soever.

Just practical realities.


peace

 

[muse]

This post is yet another example of

--- Do what I say
--- Do not do what I do

Oh Bhai sahib, why on earth you fail to see that USA is not alone. It has close allies like UK, and Germany in Europe and then pretty much the whole developed world including Japan and South Korea from Asia, South Africa, and Australia.

Taking on USA or even abandoning it means shooting in our foot (like Pakistanis Commies, Socialists and now Islamists have been doing since 1947)

Because you just can't abandon USA, you will end up doing the same thing with UK (at the same time) that happens to be your country of residence (if not a country of your citizenship).


It is just pathetic to see that so many Paks work for the Queen

But then

They tell Pakistan to pee on the same queen.

What is this? if not sheer madness.


Just sheer childishness

I don't think anybody is suggesting that we or anybody else "go after the US" - it's a misrepresentation, what is being suggested is that we restructure Pakistan so that it is better able to resit pressure to act against her own interests.

In time, I am sure, as in positive that the interests of the US and the West will come around to promoting better relations with Muslim majority countries, in historical blink of the eye, the middle class between the Maghreb to Singapore will be larger than that of North America and Europe combined - however, between now and then, to ensure that the nation state of Pakistan is still around and not just round but prosperous and strong, Pakistan need to undertake reform in it's economy that is not possible until the nature of politics is changed, if that means khuni inqilab, it will still be something that had to be done, whether or not that happens is up to the politicians of Pakistan

 

[Jungibaaz]

This post is yet another example of

--- Do what I say
--- Do not do what I do

Sure... carry on.

Oh Bhai sahib, why on earth you fail to see that USA is not alone. It has close allies like UK, and Germany in Europe and then pretty much the whole developed world including Japan and South Korea from Asia, South Africa, and Australia.

Taking on USA or even abandoning it means shooting in our foot (like Pakistanis Commies, Socialists and now Islamists have been doing since 1947)

Ever heard of a balanced approach?

Wonder if the thought ever crossed your mind?
Limiting involvement=/=Taking on the US.

Sadly, we aren't resource rich tycoons that we can wait out sanctions.

Because you just can't abandon USA, you will end up doing the same thing with UK (at the same time) that happens to be your country of residence (if not a country of your citizenship).

Where oh where did I say abandon? You are good at making a mountain out of a mole, and thus you how can I put it softly? delude yourself, thinking that all other approaches therefore must be wrong.

It is just pathetic to see that so many Paks work for the Queen

But then

They tell Pakistan to pee on the same queen.

Out with it, I've seen your hate against expats.
Perhaps it's jealousy if anything.

Can Pakistan not have a balanced approach to this WoT?
You know what we will gain if our top brass think like you?

Not only will we suffer from immediate problems from taking on more hidden enemies in the region, but we will undeniably be used as a scapegoat because of our increased presence in that arena. Sanctions if they haven't come through the duration of the WoT, will come later. How severe they are depends on how much (if at all) we bow down to US pressure during the WoT.

Just sheer childishness

You have a dirty habit on looking down on people you disagree with.
Only a couple replies from you and I can already feel it.

 

[KRAIT]

If they kicked out emotions then they wouldn't have bombed Japan with nukes. Now they have no credibility in regard when they talk of WMD's and what not. Just their power that allows them to dictate things there. Furthermore if they weren't emotional they wouldn't get bogged down in Afghanistan and would have ensured they got Bin Laden through other means. Its very easy to provoke them into a war. They react like angry murderers the moment they are provoked with unparalleled force. @FaujHistorian next time remember to tag me before posting so I know what you posted and it was in response to me. I will be giving responses tomorrow as today my head feels like its on fire. Another long post would kill me.

They bombed Japan to send a message to entire world and especially Soviet Union. It wasn't an emotional decision. Cold war was in its nascent stage and not many see it.

When they attacked Afghanistan, they went to Iraq instead of hunting Osama because Bush wanted to invade Iraq and also overthrow Saddam as US oil companies were kicked out. US has one policy, either if are with them or them will destroy you by any means, change and topple govt. to get US friendly govt. no matter if its democracy or dictatorship. Their past experience with Dictators like Shah of Iran, Saddam etc. pushed them to Use Democracy and Freedom for countries as major reason.

There are no emotions attached. All are expendables for them as long it is according to their national interest.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I don't think anybody is suggesting that we or anybody else "go after the US" - it's a misrepresentation, what is being suggested is that we restructure Pakistan so that it is better able to resit pressure to act against her own interests.

In time, I am sure, as in positive that the interests of the US and the West will come around to promoting better relations with Muslim majority countries, in historical blink of the eye, the middle class between the Maghreb to Singapore will be larger than that of North America and Europe combined - however, between now and then, to ensure that the nation state of Pakistan is still around and not just round but prosperous and strong, Pakistan need to undertake reform in it's economy that is not possible until the nature of politics is changed, if that means khuni inqilab, it will still be something that had to be done, whether or not that happens is up to the politicians of Pakistan

With due respect, it is rather ironic to think that somehow

We have to restructure Pakistan.

to do what
?


To resist USA?


What kind of "restructuring"

are we talking about?

Please elaborate


Thank you

 

[muse]

Please read the previous post for an elaboration of the kind of restructuring I think we need

 

[FaujHistorian]

.....

Can Pakistan not have a balanced approach to this WoT?
You know what we will gain if our top brass think like you?
......

Hello Sir!

It is 2013. Noone in Pak is using WoT like terms anymore unless one happens to be ex-commie-current Islamist or simply Talib-bozo sympathizer.


In Pakistan, it is now a war for our survival against the onslaught of Islamists.

And yes what I say is mainly being done by our top brass.

It is just that we have so many Pakistanis settled in UK/US who are propagating Islamist agenda and thus resulting in killing of our innocent Jawans and officers and civilians.


Please come to Pakistan and see the reality.

In UK mosques they just preach Islamism in one way or the other

That just happens to be out of date by at least 30 years.


peace