How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[notorious_eagle]

And for some odd reason, the exact opposite is inconceivable, right?

Not at all, war is a very dirty and tricky business as DOB pointed out. Expect both sides to employ dirty techniques to harass the enemy. To prevent something like this, you would need Neighbourhood Community Watch pretty much all around the country similar to what the Israelis have.

doesn't our awacs and EW assets block PAF awacs?

To put it in one word: No. IAF is not the USAF.

 

[Gentelman]

You do realize that F-16's Block 52 were delivered with AIM-120C7 before SD-10 was integrated into JFT right? I hope you understand where I am going with this! And please, for the love of God, go and read up on the ROSE upgrades on Mirages before you continue to make a fool of yourself.

Well again plzzzz provide source......
well name the BVR missiles used with Mairages???

 

[notorious_eagle]

Well again plzzzz provide source......
well name the BVR missiles used with Mairages???

Here you go:

I have a picture of this missile. It was modified by Pakistan. Picture clearly shows that it is a missile and not a bomb.

I did not realize that it was such a big mystery and no one has ever seen this missile before.

May be there is a reason that PAF has never released one. I Will check before posting it on the net. But until then, please be rest assured that it is a Fire & Forget BVRAAM with the reported range of 120km.

PGM and AAM look very different. When you see the picture, it will end all speculation.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3586&d=1246053197
http://www.defence.pk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3585&d=1246053171

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Here you go:



http://www.defence.pk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3586&d=1246053197
http://www.defence.pk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3585&d=1246053171

the link is not working, btw which bvrm with 120 km range ?

 

[notorious_eagle]

the link is not working, btw which bvrm with 120 km range ?

Go through this link and read Hon Parvez Shamim's posts.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/28713-h2-h4-aam-agm.html#post409169

 

[MilSpec]

Your last line (the link) sums it all up for those who have any idea, literally. After all those combat training sessions with practice starved RSAF Pilots that actually need training from IAF the IAF realized that their MKI's were in severe need of upgrades to be able to stand a chance against F-16's (perhaps even JFT's on JFT's turf). No wonder the sudden rush and massive investment to have the Jets upgraded as soon as possible. Not only that the trainings were conducted with Ameatur Singapore AF Pilots but also that the training sessions had no real war time scenario where a lot of other assets complement the adversary's Air Force both in the air and on the ground!

OK.... SU 30MKI seems to be ordinary aircraft in your opinion, not comparable to your f16's if FC1's. Please do underestimate this platform at your own risk.

It was perhaps these shortcomings that forced IAF to look away from Russia towards other countries for recent procurements, I mean had the MKI been the beast that it is claimed by fanboys and ameaturs it would have been more than a match for the Rafale too......Quite literally, IAF could have acquired 2x times more MKI's in the same amount of money that they are looking to spend on 126 Rafale, that would mean 250+ MKI Beasts for 126 Rafale! Either the MKI's not up to mark or the Indian decision makers are just as lame as many Indians that post here. Personally I believe the former to be true.

And jaguars mirages and harriers are of russian make. It seems your highness is unaware of India's relations with european comapanies in the past. as far as rafale is considered, it seems dear sir's logic is extremely marred when it comes to understanding the need for medium sized multi role aircraft. [/QUOTE]

I also, repeatedly, have to remind Indians how effective the Russian Jammers and Russian BVR Missile are so we can all but discount everything except actual dogfight that too unless the MKI has to face an AIM-120C7 from BVR......because then its Baby Bye Bye Bye......

I have to repeatedly remind pakistani members that their chinese munitions are nothing but cloned vympel designs which often outperform their american ordinance on the forum. You have no clue of what RVV-ae/sd/md can do.

So Phalcons will be pinpointing target locations deep inside Pakistani Air Space from hundreds of KM's inside Indian Air Space? You are probably mistaking the Phalcons with Satellites!!!

there are dedicated satellites too, but Phalcons it seems are useless as they can be bought down by "train borne stinger armed mujhideens" (TBSAM) according to the "think tonks"

Perhaps it would be the best scenario where Pakistanis do underestimate IAF platforms like Su30MKI, Rafale's. Mig29UPG's, Mirage 2000-05MK2, and others.

And if the general consensus is reached that SU30MKI is indeed a weak/poor platform which can be over run by FC1's F16's RPG's, Ak47's tt33's (take your pick!) mods might as well close this thread.

Go through this link and read Hon Parvez Shamim's posts.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/28713-h2-h4-aam-agm.html#post409169

Glide bombs and guided bombs modified into a AAM, thats a new one.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Glide bombs and guided bombs modified into a AAM, thats a new one.

No No No

H2 and H4 are long range PGM. The BVRAAM is a totally different platform. R Darter was acquired by PAF from Denel with full TOT. After the acquisition, extensive work was done on it to improve its seeker, range, manoeuvrability. PAF has named it "Crescent Arrow". Its a totally different platform than the PGM's.

 

[MilSpec]

To get a little perspective of the munitions carried by the platform that the entire thread is aimed to countering.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/225352-iaf-missiles-ordinance-info-pool.html

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

War is dirty business kid and if you don't believe me google "The CIA saboteurs handbook" the edition used during WW II was recently declassified. I'm sure the latest edition is a million times nastier. Don't expect the enemy to fight fair and the best way to loose a fight is to go into it thinking you can't be beaten.

Each and every thing can be beaten. If you believe in quantum physics, there is even a possibility that I can throw a pebble from the ground which can take the F22 Raptor down. But that doesn't mean that IAF will recruit me to prepare for a scenario when US attacks India. The scenario you suggested (about using JF17 to put down our AWACS) was extremely unplausible, laughable in every respect.

Btw, this thread is about MKI

Actually NO!

BVR capable means the Jet can actually use BVR missiles for BVR engagements! But you can continue your rant!



That may not be possible because at maximum range the Phalcons will be Jammed by PAF AWACS and other ground based EW Assets. I mean the Phalcon would most definitely hold its own within Indian air space where it would be safe 150-200 km's inside IAF territory but to think that it's range would be maximum advertised range despite the adversary's AWACS Jamming the signals and successfully Jamming Phalcons the closeer the detection gets to PAF AWACS is not very smart.

Maybe if the Phalcons are 200km's deep within IAF territory then they may be able to look 100km's inside PAF air space. And so on.

Can your mirages use BVR missiles without having BVR missiles?

 

[Mav3rick]

[url=http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/51b-proposed-in-sales-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/]$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan’s F-16s[/url][/QUOTE]

I stand corrected. Wiki showed sales of C7 for PAF the last I checked.



[quote="DARKY, post: 3763777"]Only If that can get in your Head... read about those engagements before making ridiculous statements.[/QUOTE]

You serious? The net is full of engagements of US Jets and Russian Jets almost all around the world and stats clearly are in favour of US Jets.

[quote="Agnostic_Indian, post: 3763786"]then I would go with rafale[/QUOTE]

Hmm.....then the acquisition makes sense. But the way Indians create a hype about the MKI I thought most of you guys considered an MKI to be a more potent Air Superiority Fighter Plane then any other 4th Gen or 4.5th Gen Jet.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

I stand corrected. Wiki showed sales of C7 for PAF the last I checked.





You serious? The net is full of engagements of US Jets and Russian Jets almost all around the world and stats clearly are in favour of US Jets.



Hmm.....then the acquisition makes sense. But the way Indians create a hype about the MKI I thought most of you guys considered an MKI to be a more potent Air Superiority Fighter Plane then any other 4th Gen or 4.5th Gen Jet.

rafale because it's latest and one of the top few 4.5 gen jets around. it has many advantages against current mki, such as spectra, low rcs, aesa radar super cruise etc. mki also got some advantage such as load, hard points, altitude, massive space to accommodate powerful radar and electronics etc.

once mki upgrades happen then most of this rafale advantages would become void. Mki upgrade and new rafale will come at more or less same time.

 

[Mav3rick]

Mav3rick

Your comment re SINGPORE PILOTS being amaretish is rich coming from a pakistani paf fan boy.

PAF can only dream about the level of technology and training that is avialble to singpore air force pilots. They have military budget per pilot that is ten fold of the average PAF pilot.

I suggest you check the AIRFORCE faxciklities and planes and hardware abnd compare. BELIEVE the singpore air force do not fly MIRAGE from the 1970S OR F7s as per average PAF pilot.

BY THE WAY IAF uses israeli jammers from ELTA NOT RUSSIAN.

CHECK YOUR FACTS.

and finally

since awarding RAFALE THE MMRCA contract india have signed for a further 42 su30mki . SO youir comments about MKI being deemed russian crap is also way off the mark

ANY MORE COMMENTS im all ears

As per technology, I can agree that RSAF may have that advantage but training.....well let's not kid ourselves who has more potent training. I mean they need training from IAF pilots speaks volumes of their level of training! Kinda speaks volumes of their training budget too as otherwise they would have been trained by the best (I mean those who are considered the best).

By the way I have stated numerous times that it is only the Israeli Jammers (that are not carried on all MKI's) that would actually matter in real war and not Russian Jammers. Finally, please be aware that MMRCA contract has 'as yet' not been awarded!!!! So the 42 MKI's are purchased before signing the MMRCA contract!

 

[Mav3rick]

OK.... SU 30MKI seems to be ordinary aircraft in your opinion, not comparable to your f16's if FC1's. Please do underestimate this platform at your own risk.

Not really, the MKI has to be a superb Fighter most likely on par with F-16 B52. But it will have to fight PAF where it will not have any SAM or AWACS cover whereas PAF will have not only that but ground based EW assets as well. This may tild the advantage in favour of PAF.

And jaguars mirages and harriers are of russian make. It seems your highness is unaware of India's relations with european comapanies in the past. as far as rafale is considered, it seems dear sir's logic is extremely marred when it comes to understanding the need for medium sized multi role aircraft.

You are merely proving my point further, the IAF had tried Mirages and was aware how good non Russian technology was. But that's just my take on things. However, you might be able to explain the need for MMRCA.

I have to repeatedly remind pakistani members that their chinese munitions are nothing but cloned vympel designs which often outperform their american ordinance on the forum. You have no clue of what RVV-ae/sd/md can do.

Outperform American Munitions? Hardly!

And China does not merely 'clone', it actually produces more advanced 'versions'.

there are dedicated satellites too, but Phalcons it seems are useless as they can be bought down by "train borne stinger armed mujhideens" (TBSAM) according to the "think tonks"

Perhaps it would be the best scenario where Pakistanis do underestimate IAF platforms like Su30MKI, Rafale's. Mig29UPG's, Mirage 2000-05MK2, and others.

And if the general consensus is reached that SU30MKI is indeed a weak/poor platform which can be over run by FC1's F16's RPG's, Ak47's tt33's (take your pick!) mods might as well close this thread.

This is what I had written:

"So Phalcons will be pinpointing target locations deep inside Pakistani Air Space from hundreds of KM's inside Indian Air Space? You are probably mistaking the Phalcons with Satellites!!!"

Now look at your response.

Can your mirages use BVR missiles without having BVR missiles?

How does anybody know whether the Mirages were armed with BVR or not? I mean why upgrade them with a BVR capable radar if they were never going to use a BVR? But why the fuss, the Mirages can use a BVR today right?

 

[notorious_eagle]

OK.... SU 30MKI seems to be ordinary aircraft in your opinion, not comparable to your f16's if FC1's. Please do underestimate this platform at your own risk.

No one on the Pakistani side believes that SU30MKI is an ordinary aircraft. It is a very well oiled machine, a very good one if i might add. But it is also not 'God's Gift to Aviation' as some of your fellow brethren's have been advocating. It is not an aircraft without weaknesses that cannot be exploited, i guess this is the point we Pakistani's are trying to send but it is being stubbornly refuted by Indian members whom seem to be under the spell that MKI is the best fighter aircraft ever built.

I have to repeatedly remind pakistani members that their chinese munitions are nothing but cloned vympel designs which often outperform their american ordinance on the forum. You have no clue of what RVV-ae/sd/md can do.

I agree, initially a lot of the Chinese tech were clones of Russian tech. But with the rapid modernization of Chinese Forces and billions of dollars invested in R&D, the Chinese have been able to come up with tech that exceeds the Russian in some aspects, J11B is a good example. The Chinese are churning out hundreds and thousands of engineers every year and investing billions, do you honestly think Russia can keep up for long even with Indian financing? Its only a matter of time before the Chinese tech will exceed Russian or even European, they simply cannot compete. The European defence industry is starting to stagnate due to budget cuts in Europe, that is why you can see they are increasingly partnering up with American firms and focusing on small and niche products as they cannot find the funding from their Home Governments.

there are dedicated satellites too, but Phalcons it seems are useless as they can be bought down by "train borne stinger armed mujhideens" (TBSAM) according to the "think tonks"

Calm down. But you cannot deny the fact that both sides will not employ platoons of specialized trained commandos whom will try to operate behind the enemy lines with the sole purpose of destroying valuable assets. I have no doubt in my mind that specialized Indian commandos will try to get behind enemy lines to try and eliminate Pakistani strategic assets.

Perhaps it would be the best scenario where Pakistanis do underestimate IAF platforms like Su30MKI, Rafale's. Mig29UPG's, Mirage 2000-05MK2, and others.

I can assure you that PAF is not underestimating these assets. IAF is one formidable foe and certainly the strongest force in the region.

And if the general consensus is reached that SU30MKI is indeed a weak/poor platform which can be over run by FC1's F16's RPG's, Ak47's tt33's (take your pick!) mods might as well close this thread.

Nops, this is a consensus that has been reached by you. We respect the SU30MKI, its an awesome machine but not invincible as Indian members are trying to make it out to be.

Can your mirages use BVR missiles without having BVR missiles?

Read post 1372 and 1370. R Darter has been in PAF service for quite some time now.

 

[Mav3rick]

rafale because it's latest and one of the top few 4.5 gen jets around. it has many advantages against current mki, such as spectra, low rcs, aesa radar super cruise etc. mki also got some advantage such as load, hard points, altitude, massive space to accommodate powerful radar and electronics etc.

once mki upgrades happen then most of this rafale advantages would become void. Mki upgrade and new rafale will come at more or less same time.

But then wasn't it cheaper to simply upgrade the MKI's and purchase 2x more upgraded MKI's if the advantages of Rafale are lost post MKI upgrade? I mean IAF may have been able to procure 250+ Super MKI's for the same amount of money and if the Rafale then holds no advantage then why buy Rafale?

Or is it a lot to do with politics and attempts to derive PAF of French avionics/radars etc.?