Mossadegh's legacy; 'Persian nationalism amongst strongest forces on earth'

[FaujHistorian]

Mossadegh was a nationalist and he paid the price for nationalizing the Iranian oil company which angered the British and the USA. Whether he was a communist or not is upto debate but even if he was a communist, he was still democratically elected by the Iranian people. Shah had no right to overthrow an elected Prime Minister at the behest of the British and the Americans.

Any individual and especially a leader who knowingly takes his country to instability should never be called a nationalist.

Based on his actions, Musadiq should instead be called ANARCHIST.


You gotta get your definitions straight bro!, you gotta get your definitions fixed.


peace



p.s. True nationalist leaders should be the ones like the Chinese, South Korean, Japanese, and Germans. These leaders are deliberate, patient, and hardworking and keeping their countries safe from instability and anarchy.

Remember a country is a like a boat in a big ocean. And the leaders are like boatmen.

Should a boatman purposefully tilt and shake and destabilize and rock his boat? Heck no!

In fact if a bigger ship or tanker in the area, a big whale under the sea, a true "nationalist" boatman would do his level best to keep his people calm and his boat stable.

Unfortunately people like you prefer the leaders who turn their boats upside down by jumping up and down, and doing gali galoch with every passing ship.

 

[Shahin Vatani]

No one could find something insulting in whole my 343 posts, I have had in Pakistani forum

Not true, you insult me here:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/iranian-defence/179073-discussions-persian-14.html#post3071575

There is a problem of mother tongue language right

Well seeing as the head of Iran is an Azeri, you should take up your language problems with him. Anyway good luck with getting your language recognised as official.

The ancient name for Iran has always been Iran -- land of Aryans -- back from the days of Cyrus.

Wrong. Iran derives from the middle Persian word Eran. Cyrus the Great lived much before that period.

All Persians are Iranian, but not all Iranians are Persian.

Also not true. Persians live in Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. Probably more places too.

In general I believe Iranian nationalism is correct. We should not hold any ethnicity above that of Iran. It is through Iranian nationalism that we will prosper and become powerful once again.

 

[Developereo]

Wrong. Iran derives from the middle Persian word Eran. Cyrus the Great lived much before that period.

Iran - Jatland Wiki

In former ages, the names Ariana and Persian were used to describe the region which is today known as the Iranian plateau. The earliest Iranian reference to the word (airya/arya/aryana etc), however, predates the Iranian prophet Zoroaster (est. anywhere between 1200 to 1800 BCE, according to Plato and other Greek sources as early as 7000 BCE.) and is attested in non-Gathic Avesta; it appears as airya, meaning noble/spiritual/elevated; as airya dainhava (Yt.8.36, 52) meaning the land of the Aryans; and as airyana vaejah, the original land of the Aryans. Other peoples were called Anairya and later Aniranian, meaning un-aryan or non-Aryan.

During the Achaemenid dynasty (550-330 BCE), the Persian people called their provincial homeland Pārsa, the Old Persian name for Cyrus the Great's kingdom which belonged to the Persian tribe of the Iranian branch of the Indo-Iranians and which can still be found in the term Pars or Fars as part of the heartland of Iran and for example in the map by Eratosthenes and other historical or modern maps.

However, the country as a whole was called Aryanam. The word Ariya, noble/spiritual/elevated, is attested in the Inscriptions of Darius the Great and his son, Xerxes; it is used both as a linguistic and a racial designation as Darius refers to this at the Behistun inscription (DBiv.89), which is written in Aryan language/airyan, also known as Old Persian. Both Darius and Xerxes state in Naqsh-i Rustam (DNa.14), Susa (DSe.13), and Persepolis (XPh.13):

Adam Pārsa, Pārsahyā puça; Ariya, Ariya ciça...

I am Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, belonging to the Aryan race." --Darius the Great (549 BCE - 486 BCE)

In Parthian times (248 BCE–224 CE), Aryanam was modified to Aryan. In the early Sassanid Period (224–651 CE), it had already evolved to Middle Persian Ērān or Ērān Shahr which finally resulted in New Persian Iran or Iran Shahr.

At the time of the Achaemenid empire, the Greeks called the country Persis, the Greek name for Pars (Fars), the central region where the empire was founded; this passed into Latin and became Persia, the name widely used in Western countries which causes confusion as Persia is actually Pars (Fars) province.

Also not true. Persians live in Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. Probably more places too.

The first part of my statement was for symmetry. I know Persians live outside Iran. In any case, you are reinforcing my point that Persian and Iranian are NOT interchangeable terms, any more than English and British are.

 

[Shahin Vatani]

In former ages, the names Ariana and Persian were used to describe the region which is today known as the Iranian plateau. The earliest Iranian reference to the word (airya/arya/aryana etc),

We are talking about the word Iran and since when it was used to refer to whole country. You bring up word Aryan, we all know that it is an ancient word. But it wasn't used to refer to the country back in those days, it just meant noble.

Iran was only used to refer to the country from Sassanid period, as shown on Naqsh e Rostam inscription.

[
The first part of my statement was for symmetry. I know Persians live outside Iran. In any case, you are reinforcing my point that Persian and Iranian are NOT interchangeable terms, any more than English and British are.

You should only make such statements if you know they are correct. Otherwise it would lead to an uninformed reader to truly believe Persians only exist in Iran.

Also with your last part, in the Western world Iranian and Persian are used interchangeably. Like Khamenei is referred to as the Persian Supreme Leader, when he is Azeri. Or Bahman Ghobadi is referred to as Persian filmmaker when he is Kurdish. It is similar to the way Spanish is used. While there are many minorities in Spain, such as Catalans and Basque, they are often referred to as Spanish as well.

However as I stated above, I personally prefer Iranian over Persian anyway. In fact I often correct people I know to use Iranian to refer to Iran and not Persian.

 

[Developereo]

We are talking about the word Iran and since when it was used to refer to whole country. You bring up word Aryan, we all know that it is an ancient word. But it wasn't used to refer to the country back in those days, it just meant noble.

Iran was only used to refer to the country from Sassanid period, as shown on Naqsh e Rostam inscription.

According to the above article, the entire country was called Aryanam during the Achaemenid period, and probably before.

airya dainhava (Yt.8.36, 52) meaning the land of the Aryans; and as airyana vaejah, the original land of the Aryans

in the Western world Iranian and Persian are used interchangeably.

Foreigners confuse terms all the time, e.g. British v/s English. That's their problem and is not the issue here.

 

[Shahin Vatani]

According to the above article, the entire country was called Aryanam during the Achaemenid period, and probably before.

I read the above article, it doesn't give a source for that information, so I am rather sceptical. It again refers to Naqsh e Rostam and already makes a mistake by saying it was built during Darius the Great's time, while it was built much later during Ardashir I time.

Foreigners confuse terms all the time, e.g. British v/s English. That's their problem and is not the issue here.

Your claim above was that they are not interchangeable terms. So it is the issue here, in the West they are interchangeable.

Anyway as I see from your posts you seem to be pro Iran. So I want to thank you for your effort.

 

[Serpentine]

Hey! the strongest force in the world from Dutch-land! the Dutch who refer to Holland, rather than the Netherlands is because near 100% of people live there is from Dutch race. I am sorry to tell this, but the opinion of using "Persian" instead of "Iranian" is not very popular, at least, at north-west of our beloved Iran.

As a member of a very little minority in Iran I highly recommend you to not help the stupid movement of so called "Persian nationalism" but the cheap racist attitude which does nothing except insulting, unrealistic dreaming, and injection of false pride. This could only has the result of separation of motherland to Persian-land & Iran! And please be advise, by that time, minority may could not stop the false moving majority! With this clear result how one could name it as "nationalism"! It is anti-nationalism.

We could only have "Iranian nationalism" here. Long live Iran & long live every race who is loyal to this flag, no matter how percent of total is.

By the way let's to talk about Mossadegh, He is among the rare (may be only) nationalist Iranian politician. He is alive in heart of nation for ever.

I couldn't agree more with your post.You live in Iran,so you should know we don't use a term called 'Persian Nationalism' in Iran,it's always called Iranian nationalism as far as I have heard.
Those who think Iran means Persians are idiots,I speak frankly.Iran has never been a complete Persian country.We have many different ethnic groups and what I wonder sometimes,is that how they could stay united like this during history,You barely find something like this in other countries.

I hope you agree with me on this,Turks (and others) in Iran have 2 undeniable rights,learning and studying in their mother tongue.But still,there should be one language that all the Iranian understand and I think Persian is the best choice and can be used as lingua franca.We can not separate Persians and Turks and other ethnic groups from each other.They have integrated in to society in a way that they are unbreakable except by force and military means.I'm from a Persian family,and all of my 4 brothers and sister married to Azeri Turks from Tabriz and Urmia.You can find numerous other families.

I won't deny,there are some idiots (not only on one side,but on all sides) who spread hate and racism in Iran,in a country that people have had every kinds of problems with each other except racial and ethnic ones.But the good thing is,they are absolute minority,those who insult other ethnic groups or making jokes of them.Hopefully,this ugly behavior is vanishing (at least I see it this way).For example,I never make ethnic jokes anymore and I don't let people around me to tell them for me and it has worked,they are giving it up.Others are doing that do,maybe slowly,but still it's a good thing.We all saw in the recent earthquake in Azerbaijan,what people of Iran did for their compatriots (I'm talking about people,not necessarily the government).I should also mention how some non-Iranian (even id they live in Iran or born in Iran) tried to abuse the situation foe further ethnic hatred.
Sorry for the long post and off topic,but I thought it would be better if I say these words.

PS:The topic should be named Iranian nationalism,Mosadegh never did anything for Persians,all he did was for Iranians and indeed,he is a true hero.

 

[Surenas]

Btw, I searched for that quote of Robin Wright, and he didn't refer to Persian nationalism, but to Iranian nationalism. So the writer changed it.

''As they modernize, they want to avoid any further dependence on the outside world. To understand Iranian nationalism, think of a proud, chauvinistic Texan—then add 5,000 years.''

The Challenge of Iran | The Iran Primer

 

[Ir.Tab.]

Not true, you insult me here:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/iranian-defence/179073-discussions-persian-14.html#post3071575

Well seeing as the head of Iran is an Azeri, you should take up your language problems with him. Anyway good luck with getting your language recognised as official.

In general I believe Iranian nationalism is correct. We should not hold any ethnicity above that of Iran. It is through Iranian nationalism that we will prosper and become powerful once again.

Come on, what kind of insulting is that? It means "the newcomer frightens me" and I have given my reason there!

Just to know: by threatening Turkic people in Iran about what nationalism could be in a Persian mind you just tightening more that Turkic-leader bound.

What is the relation between official language and mother tongue! harf dahane adam mizare!

All in all, I am happy we are agreed in general things.

 

[Ir.Tab.]

I couldn't agree more with your post.You live in Iran,so you should know we don't use a term called 'Persian Nationalism' in Iran,it's always called Iranian nationalism as far as I have heard.
Those who think Iran means Persians are idiots,I speak frankly.Iran has never been a complete Persian country.We have many different ethnic groups and what I wonder sometimes,is that how they could stay united like this during history,You barely find something like this in other countries.

I hope you agree with me on this,Turks (and others) in Iran have 2 undeniable rights,learning and studying in their mother tongue.But still,there should be one language that all the Iranian understand and I think Persian is the best choice and can be used as lingua franca.We can not separate Persians and Turks and other ethnic groups from each other.They have integrated in to society in a way that they are unbreakable except by force and military means.I'm from a Persian family,and all of my 4 brothers and sister married to Azeri Turks from Tabriz and Urmia.You can find numerous other families.

I won't deny,there are some idiots (not only on one side,but on all sides) who spread hate and racism in Iran,in a country that people have had every kinds of problems with each other except racial and ethnic ones.But the good thing is,they are absolute minority,those who insult other ethnic groups or making jokes of them.Hopefully,this ugly behavior is vanishing (at least I see it this way).For example,I never make ethnic jokes anymore and I don't let people around me to tell them for me and it has worked,they are giving it up.Others are doing that do,maybe slowly,but still it's a good thing.We all saw in the recent earthquake in Azerbaijan,what people of Iran did for their compatriots (I'm talking about people,not necessarily the government).I should also mention how some non-Iranian (even id they live in Iran or born in Iran) tried to abuse the situation foe further ethnic hatred.
Sorry for the long post and off topic,but I thought it would be better if I say these words.

PS:The topic should be named Iranian nationalism, Mosadegh never did anything for Persians ,all he did was for Iranians and indeed,he is a true hero.

Come on guys, which type of disagreement is this! I just see re-post of my opinions! except that I never talk about official language in that posts. we have no problem with Farsi as official language. And yes, I agree about those undeniable always frozen inactive rights!

I enjoy discussion with mature people, no doubt you are one of them. as you know the majority of Persian never accept the history of Turkic people as their heritage! even most of them hate it, could you help me to find the reason? for example in the post of our friend from Netherlands, there is a picture from wiki which in that Turkic people even are out of Iranic people, this is exactly the same as what separatism supporters say us.

 

[Hossein]

Come on guys, which type of disagreement is this! I just see re-post of my opinions! except that I never talk about official language in that posts. we have no problem with Farsi as official language. And yes, I agree about those undeniable always frozen inactive rights!

I enjoy discussion with mature people, no doubt you are one of them. as you know the majority of Persian never accept the history of Turkic people as their heritage! even most of them hate it, could you help me to find the reason? for example in the post of our friend from Netherlands, there is a picture from wiki which in that Turkic people even are out of Iranic people, this is exactly the same as what separatism supporters say us.

Dear brother, you seem to have mistaken the words Iranic and Iranian. Being Iranic means speaking one of the Iranic languages, such as Persian, Kurdish and Pashtun. Being Iranian means being from the country of Iran.

Turks are not included in that picture because by definition they speak a Turkic language, not an Iranic one. In fact most Turks get angry when you call them Iranic as they say you are trying to steal their Turkic history!

 

[Ir.Tab.]

Dear brother, you seem to have mistaken the words Iranic and Iranian. Being Iranic means speaking one of the Iranic languages, such as Persian, Kurdish and Pashtun. Being Iranian means being from the country of Iran.

Turks are not included in that picture because by definition they speak a Turkic language, not an Iranic one. In fact most Turks get angry when you call them Iranic as they say you are trying to steal their Turkic history!

You are right. What is the term to classify a language as Iranic?

 

[Hossein]

You are right. What is the term to classify a language as Iranic?

Well I am not a linguistic expert. But like all language families, it means that the languages come from the same source. That a few thousand years ago there was a mother language, which was split into the different languages we see today.

 

[Serpentine]

Come on guys, which type of disagreement is this! I just see re-post of my opinions! except that I never talk about official language in that posts. we have no problem with Farsi as official language. And yes, I agree about those undeniable always frozen inactive rights!

I enjoy discussion with mature people, no doubt you are one of them. as you know the majority of Persian never accept the history of Turkic people as their heritage! even most of them hate it, could you help me to find the reason? for example in the post of our friend from Netherlands, there is a picture from wiki which in that Turkic people even are out of Iranic people, this is exactly the same as what separatism supporters say us.

Do you agree with me that the only think Turkish about Turks in Iran is their language?When you compare their culture,habits,traditions and other features,they are almost identical to rest of Iranians.Turks in Iran are exactly like the other people of Iran,except that they speak another language.Even a recent study by one of Iranian Turks in a U.S university showed that in terms of genetics,Azerbaijanis in Iran re exactly like the people living in Tehran,Isfahan,Shiraz,Mashhad and other parts of the country and genetically they are different from Anatolian or Caucasian Turks.That doesn't make them less-Iranian,saying such thing is stupid.ُاShahriar tells it way better:

درد دل را با زبان دل بيان كردي ولي...كيست اهل دل كه باشد آشنا با آن زبان
ليكن اينها دشمنان كردند، از ايران مرنج...دوست را قرباني دشمن نشايد كرد هان
تو همايون مهد زرتشتي و فرزندان تو ... پور ايرانند و پاك آئين نژاد آريان
اختلاف لهجه مليت نزايد بهر كس...ملتي با يك زبان كمتر به ياد آرد زمان
گر بدين منطق ترا گفتند ايراني نه اي...صبح را خواندند شام و آسمان را ريسمان
بي كس است ايران، به حرف ناكسان از ره مرو ...جان به قربان تو اي جانانه آذربايجان

Can you tell what you mean by history of Turkish people?What do you consider as history of Turks in Iran?The same thing that Turks in Turkey or Azerbaijan consider as their history?

I believe,history of Azeris in Iran is history of Iran itself,we can not separate them.It's impossible.

 

[ASQ-1918]

The ultimate BS. Azeri Turks of north and south have only been separated for 2 centuries. They are similiar to Turks of Anatolia and Azerbaijan, not a different ethnic group in Shiraz or Mashad which is hundreds of miles away.

"When you compare their culture,habits,traditions and other features,they are almost identical to rest of Iranians.Turks in Iran are exactly like the other people of Iran"

They look pretty different to me from the "Iranic" group you see behind them.