Can't live with them, can't live without them

[EagleEyes]

By Think Tank Member Xeric

Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus while compiling his literary work Chiliades Adagiorum [Thousands of Adages] never would have thought that one day his words (including the title of this piece) would be used to describe the state of Pakistan’s defence forces, especially its army as viewed by Pakistanis.

The Pakistan Army is seen both as a white knight and a ravager. Some Pakistanis consider the army as the author of every ill that afflicts the country while others view the army as the sole reason of its sustenance. Commentary on the Pakistani military is aplenty on the internet, and most active contributors are the Pakistani cyborgs (internet warriors), who with easy access to the internet and plenty of time at their disposal to comment on day to day developments in the military and the military-civilian relationship on various platforms.

Their comments can be favourable and then the most vitriolic attacks as well. While the positive comments even if unwarranted at times can be attributed to fan-boy patriotism, the beef certain latitudinarians have with the military at times is unjustified. And that is what I will pick up today.

Traditionally, brushing aside the Zionist conspiracy theories, the acrimony toward the military has often been blamed on the ‘God Complexes’ of certain military men and their claims of ‘moral superiority’ over their civilian counterparts.

But of late one finds that there is little to qualify for the nasty accusation of "vanquishing this country" that is hurled toward the forces.

It is for all to see that the military has undergone drastic reforms in its outlook to the democratic set-up post-Musharraf: no more Vae Victis! no more interjections, no more coups. I ask once again, since Musharraf’s ouster how many ultra vires occurrences can those so critical of the army quote?

Not one can regurgitate the rhetoric of rigging of elections. Kudos to the new COAS who quite rightly refused to meddle in ‘civilian affairs’ and did not allow the military oversee the national elections in 2008. Gen Kiyani even forbade his generals from maintaining contacts with politicians, withdrew his officers from civilian duties and most important of all let the government closed the Political Wing of ISI soon after he was sworn into office.

It is also pertinent to mention that it was only under Gen Kiyani that the same ‘unaccountable’ generals stood (answerable) first in front of the elected representatives of the Nation and then in front of theSenate Standing Committee on Defence.

So why is it that these so-called liberals (right wingers rarely have a problem with us), have their draggers drawn?

Well, so we are told that they think that the military calls most of the shots, but I say it’s all conjecture.

Some people are still asking for a civilian to head the ISI. There is nothing wrong with a civilian heading the ISI, only that Kamran Shafi’s argument of copy/pasting the tradition of other intelligence agencies being head by civilians, so must the ISI, is (technically) flawed. Nevertheless, we can surely afford a civilian head of the ISI, but then there are a few snags that I am sure Kamran Shafi and his ilk would like to remove before implementing their proposal.

Most pertinent of these that I ask are:

- Can we allow a supreme commander of the armed forces with the credibility like Zardari to appoint ISI’s civilian DG?

- With ‘patriots’ of a similar credibility filling the Cabinet and pawns of doubtful character leading our national ministries, can our national secrets remain safe as we move further towards allowing them access to ISI’s operational briefs?

- Can we guarantee that the civilian DG would be free from internal and external influences? As regards to the internal influence/pressure, the Memogate episode should serve as an eye opener to all of us. Let’s be grateful to Gen Pasha or else with Intelligence Bureau fully stacked with nincompoops and ISI with a civilian boss, no one (including the army) had any chance to contest the government’s ‘holier-than-thou’ onslaught).

- Lastly, can a civilian DG hold his grounds and make the right decision during critical junctures when simultaneously confronted from all the four sides – military, ruling parties, opposition and outsiders?

With issues such as Zardari’s commitment to no first use of nuclear weapons and the government’s feverish stance on the Memogate scandal, there seems a fortiori requirement for a constant check over our rulers – not necessarily by the military. In developed countries this task would have be executed by the People (assisted by the state institutions).

So after all said and done at least one thing is clear, that while we can’t allow the military to transgress its limits thus affecting the maturation of democracy again, we too can’t allow our politicians (including the civilian bureaucracy) to run amok. The Supreme Court can serve as a soft alternative to the controversial checks the military puts in place, but (ideally) it is ‘We the People’ who have to ensure the accountability and scrutinize those who are paid to rule us before we can live without ‘em’.

Can’t live with them, can’t live without them | Pakistan Defence

 

[Awesome]

Not one can regurgitate the rhetoric of rigging of elections. Kudos to the new COAS who quite rightly refused to meddle in ‘civilian affairs’ and did not allow the military oversee the national elections in 2008. Gen Kiyani even forbade his generals from maintaining contacts with politicians, withdrew his officers from civilian duties and most important of all let the government closed the Political Wing of ISI soon after he was sworn into office.

Well somebody did even if it wasn't the military.

In Karachi, it was all in the open. I have narrated this incident before, my cousin went to vote. She was voting for a PML-N candidate at that time. Even in the ladies booth section the voting was done out of the booth, with armed gun men from the MQM surrounding her and with sharafat told her "Baji ji, yeh 20 votes aapne MQM ko daalne hain, wahan beth ke shuru hojayen". They didn't even bother to rig the elections themselves, they made hapless good intentioned voters vote for MQM in the presence of guns (same as on gunpoint).

What gets me is that when you ask too many question like these that who did this, who did that incident you come again and again to one conclusion. That Zardari and Kayani have some degree of partnership and some degree of tolerance for each other when stretching beyond the scope of the law.

For example the Air Chief saying "We can shoot down the drones, just need a decision from the government". How does that fly? Show me ONE decision from the government saying its okay to let the CIA bomb Pakistan? Not one. Then isn't defending Pakistan, Pakistan Army's standing orders?

Moreover, there are several resolutions in the parliament now. Against Drones, Against Military incursions.

So one has to wonder if the Military's strategy is "Chapair laga ke daanto ke uff kyun kia?"

 

[MastanKhan]

Xeric,

Kiyani is a coward---he is a gutless warrior---everytime he is confronted----he chickens out. There are no ifs and ***** about it----he is also in collusion with Zardari---. Was this the time for the army to don the garb of sainthood and when the most ever corrupt government came into power as it sold the country lock stock and barrell in advance.

I sent a letter to your general----it was put on his desk---told him to swallow his .45----if he has any pride and character left. It was given to him after the Mullen incidence where Mullen totally destroyed the integrity of pak millitary and Kiyani was in a shock that his 'buddy' Mullen had betrayed him in front of the congress.

 

[A1Kaid]

For many of us the day came when RD was set free, GoP cooperating with drone strikes is bad enough, but the military was complicit in this as well. In fact, the drone program began under Gen. Musharraf. In the RD case it is believed Army elite must have given their approval to set RD free, this was an act against the wishes of the people and requirement of the law.

I'm not going to go into a long-winded post everytime Kayani betrays the oath of the Pakistan military. I have done that enough, I am quite frankly sick of his lies, his deception, the false hope he has given the nation, and how he has robbed the peace of mind of the people.

 

[Awesome]

Xeric,

Kiyani is a coward---he is a gutless warrior---everytime he is confronted----he chickens out. There are no ifs and ***** about it----he is also in collusion with Zardari---. Was this the time for the army to don the garb of sainthood and when the most ever corrupt government came into power as it sold the country lock stock and barrell in advance.

I sent a letter to your general----it was put on his desk---told him to swallow his .45----if he has any pride and character left. It was given to him after the Mullen incidence where Mullen totally destroyed the integrity of pak millitary and Kiyani was in a shock that his 'buddy' Mullen had betrayed him in front of the congress.

I stand by his conviction to not throw out the government in a coup. Pakistan needs to learn the meaning of freedom and democracy. Pakistanis need to rise up and either force this government into retirement or ensure they don't get elected.

Why must Kayani make the choice for us when we are not making it ourselves?

My criticism of him is on his profession, as a military leader he has failed at defending Pakistan from attacks from terrorists and attacks from the US.

 

[Mav3rick]

Well somebody did even if it wasn't the military.

In Karachi, it was all in the open. I have narrated this incident before, my cousin went to vote. She was voting for a PML-N candidate at that time. Even in the ladies booth section the voting was done out of the booth, with armed gun men from the MQM surrounding her and with sharafat told her "Baji ji, yeh 20 votes aapne MQM ko daalne hain, wahan beth ke shuru hojayen". They didn't even bother to rig the elections themselves, they made hapless good intentioned voters vote for MQM in the presence of guns (same as on gunpoint).

What gets me is that when you ask too many question like these that who did this, who did that incident you come again and again to one conclusion. That Zardari and Kayani have some degree of partnership and some degree of tolerance for each other when stretching beyond the scope of the law.

For example the Air Chief saying "We can shoot down the drones, just need a decision from the government". How does that fly? Show me ONE decision from the government saying its okay to let the CIA bomb Pakistan? Not one. Then isn't defending Pakistan, Pakistan Army's standing orders?

Moreover, there are several resolutions in the parliament now. Against Drones, Against Military incursions.

So one has to wonder if the Military's strategy is "Chapair laga ke daanto ke uff kyun kia?"

Right, so the 35 million or almost 50% of total National Votes that proved to be bogus were cast by MQM goons too! And the story is always the same, My uncle or my aunt or my phuppo or chacha or friend's father etc. I am sure the guy in the hat (in Aamir Khan's fight) was an MQM goon too, sent to intimidate the referee......I wonder if TTP terrorists are affiliated with MQM too, perhaps even NATO has MQM members, no wonder they killed Pakistan Army Soldiers defending our borders!!!

When will we shed this veil, probably when we come to Karachi and rely on our own experience instead of stories heard from friend's brother's driver's chacha's neighbour's mami's etc.!

---------- Post added at 12:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 PM ----------

For many of us the day came when RD was set free, GoP cooperating with drone strikes is bad enough, but the military was complicit in this as well. In fact, the drone program began under Gen. Musharraf. In the RD case it is believed Army elite must have given their approval to set RD free, this was an act against the wishes of the people and requirement of the law.

I'm not going to go into a long-winded post everytime Kayani betrays the oath of the Pakistan military. I have done that enough, I am quite frankly sick of his lies, his deception, the false hope he has given the nation, and how he has robbed the peace of mind of the people.

You got any proof of the part in bold? Can you tell me the cumulative count of drone strikes under Musharraf's regime?

 

[Awesome]

These military and US deals (whether or not the civilians are involved) that go about need to stop. Everything must first be passed by the parliament and properly declared to the people of Pakistan.

The reason being we can STOP the parliament through protests from going ahead with anti-Pakistan agendas if it ever happened. But RD, drone deals, missing person, they were all decided out of parliament and we got no say in it.

 

[A1Kaid]

Right, so the 35 million or almost 50% of total National Votes that proved to be bogus were cast by MQM goons too! And the story is always the same, My uncle or my aunt or my phuppo or chacha or friend's father etc. I am sure the guy in the hat (in Aamir Khan's fight) was an MQM goon too, sent to intimidate the referee......I wonder if TTP terrorists are affiliated with MQM too, perhaps even NATO has MQM members, no wonder they killed Pakistan Army Soldiers defending our borders!!!

When will we shed this veil, probably when we come to Karachi and rely on our own experience instead of stories heard from friend's brother's driver's chacha's neighbour's mami's etc.!

---------- Post added at 12:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 PM ----------



You got any proof of the part in bold? Can you tell me the cumulative count of drone strikes under Musharraf's regime?

Yes, in fact I remember watching in a interview Musharraf gave to a western journalist, in which he in a dodgy way admitted CIA drone program began under him and he is the one who leased Shamsi AFB to CIA. He would publicly condemn them but privately accept it and tolerate it, in return PA/Pak received major US aid, and other material benefits. I could look up the total count of drone strikes under Musharraf but not now, Bush was actually less gung-ho about the drone program but when Obama came into office he increased it, this is statistically true. Obama is a hard liner when it comes to Pakistan and I said exactly what he would do years ago. Though yes there's no doubt about it, the drone program began under Gen. Musharraf.

 

[Awesome]

Right, so the 35 million or almost 50% of total National Votes that proved to be bogus were cast by MQM goons too! And the story is always the same, My uncle or my aunt or my phuppo or chacha or friend's father etc. I am sure the guy in the hat (in Aamir Khan's fight) was an MQM goon too, sent to intimidate the referee......I wonder if TTP terrorists are affiliated with MQM too, perhaps even NATO has MQM members, no wonder they killed Pakistan Army Soldiers defending our borders!!!

Actually I'm not saying MQM did it, I'm saying put in 5% of that 35% voter fraud in MQM's plate too. It's a testament that this happened. Well this is a close relative of mine and I can pull her up for their own testimony here as well. Also this is well acknowledged by most people in Karachi that elections are a joke in that city.

You got any proof of the part in bold? Can you tell me the cumulative count of drone strikes under Musharraf's regime?

Kasuri has already admitted to their explicit approval to unarmed drones, but he said they did 2-3 bombings with armed ones as well (it was more like 20) - and of course the Pakistan military did nothing then and till date has been unable to take down even a single drone.

 

[Mav3rick]

Yes, in fact I remember watching in a interview Musharraf gave to a western journalist, in which he in a dodgy way admitted CIA drone program began under him and he is the one who leased Shamsi AFB to CIA. He would publicly condemn them but privately accept it and tolerate it, in return PA/Pak received major US aid, and other material benefits. I could look up the total count of drone strokes under Musharraf but not now, Bush was actually less gung-ho about the drone program but when Obama came into office he increased it, this is statistically true. Obama is a hard liner when it comes to Pakistan and I said exactly what he would do years ago. Though yes there's no doubt about it, the drone program began under Gen. Musharraf.

Ok, so you remember something.....is that proof? For your information, there were 3-5 drone strikes during Musharraf's tenure and they were all pre-approved by the Govt. against recognized targets. Musharraf had an iron grip on drone strikes and targets, it wasn't a license to kill as was granted by the civilian Govt. after Musharraf.

 

[Adnan Faruqi]

1. The thing is that politicians never gets full control and authority in pakistan but at the same time they are expected to solve pakistan's problems.

But when they failed then they are solely blamed.

2. On the other hand Pak Army which hold unquestioned and full authority (specially at the time of military rule in pakistan) pak army can solve every problems of pakistan.

But when army rules fails to do anything Army is not blamed but the generals gets all the blame.

And cycle is repeated.

3. I accept that politicians are not angels but corrupt and opportunistic bunch of people.

But tell me how army is different????????????

4. Tell me which problem of pakistan is solved by army???

- Load shedding??
- Poverty??
- Unemployment??
- Corruption???
- Ethnic violence???

5. And if zardari or shariff are corrupt or these 2 persons are the only root cause of pakistan's all the problems then why don't Army take them strictly by law or hang them and solve the problem of pakistan forever?????????

6. This holier then thou attitude is facade and all are same in this game of power.


You are free to disagree or agree its just my views.

 

[Mav3rick]

Actually I'm not saying MQM did it, I'm saying put in 5% of that 35% voter fraud in MQM's plate too. It's a testament that this happened. Well this is a close relative of mine and I can pull her up for their own testimony here as well. Also this is well acknowledged by most people in Karachi that elections are a joke in that city.

Neither have I defended MQM, they played their part.....albeit a very very small and insignificant part in a much larger game. Surprisingly, you chose to speak only of MQM when MQM's contribution in rigging is negligible compared to the part played by other parties.

All the acknowledgements are from non-Karachiites who do not even have the right to cast a vote in Karachi (depends upon their own district I think). We, Karachiites know what's doing on and still vote for MQM!

Kasuri has already admitted to their explicit approval to unarmed drones, but he said they did 2-3 bombings with armed ones as well (it was more like 20) - and of course the Pakistan military did nothing then and till date has been unable to take down even a single drone.

I dispute your claim of like 20 drone strikes, it was more like 3-5 which were all pre approved and against confirmed targets. CIA was, an extension tool of the Military you can say against targets that the military wanted taken out but not at their own peril.

 

[Mav3rick]

1. The thing is that politicians never gets full control and authority in pakistan but at the same time they are expected to solve pakistan's problems.

But when they failed then they are solely blamed.

2. On the other hand Pak Army which hold unquestioned and full authority (specially at the time of military rule in pakistan) pak army can solve every problems of pakistan.

But when army rules fails to do anything Army is not blamed but the generals gets all the blame.

And cycle is repeated.

3. I accept that politicians are not angels but corrupt and opportunistic bunch of people.

But tell me how army is different????????????

4. Tell me which problem of pakistan is solved by army???

- Load shedding??
- Poverty??
- Unemployment??
- Corruption???
- Ethnic violence???

5. And if zardari or shariff are corrupt or these 2 persons are the only root cause of pakistan's all the problems then why don't Army take them strictly by law or hang them and solve the problem of pakistan forever?????????

6. This holier then thou attitude is facade and all are same in this game of power.


You are free to disagree or agree its just my views.

2006 V/S 2012 - Enough Said!

 

[A1Kaid]

Ok, so you remember something.....is that proof? For your information, there were 3-5 drone strikes during Musharraf's tenure and they were all pre-approved by the Govt. against recognized targets. Musharraf had an iron grip on drone strikes and targets, it wasn't a license to kill as was granted by the civilian Govt. after Musharraf.

I know what I remember and I know what Musharraf said. It is a fact as you in your post admitted at least 3-5 drone strikes occured, which signaled the start of the CIA drone program in Pakistan, which began under Gen. Musharraf's tenure. Many people know this, you seem to be confused. Musharraf had an "iron-grip on drones", well it was helpful that Bush wasn't gung-ho or ferverous about the drone program in Pakistan as much as Obama is. Whatever "grip" he had it wasn't the "grip" Gen. Musharraf wish he stated he had, which I wont say what that is.

 

[Awesome]

Neither have I defended MQM, they played their part.....albeit a very very small and insignificant part in a much larger game. Surprisingly, you chose to speak only of MQM when MQM's contribution in rigging is negligible compared to the part played by other parties.

So they have their spread in 2 cities. Like that if you add everyone's small parts it comes up to 35% which is a big part. Moreover I'm not making a charge sheet JUST against MQM, that's the one example where MQM did it with impunity and I am aware of thats why I quoted to disagree with the author's assertion that the military insured that the elections would be free and fair and that no one can say that the military interfered with politics.

All the acknowledgements are from non-Karachiites who do not even have the right to cast a vote in Karachi (depends upon their own district I think). We, Karachiites know what's doing on and still vote for MQM!

The testimony I quoted is from a woman born in Karachi and is now in her 40s. Pretty Karachiite for me.

I dispute your claim of like 20 drone strikes, it was more like 3-5

As you said one must not speak from memory:

Drone attacks in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's about 18 attacks till August 18, 2008 (Musharraf's last day in office).

which were all pre approved and against confirmed targets. CIA was, an extension tool of the Military you can say against targets that the military wanted taken out but not at their own peril.

With whose authority? If there was a lack of capability in which US military forces needed to be engaged in Pakistan (repeatedly) - don't you think the Parliament should have approved such a move instead of deciding them on camp david?